DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Browns Front Office...not ready for prime time...

I've finally figured out why Mac hates the FO so much





Mac clearly went to Yale.

In all seriousness, the FO said early that their plan was to build the team through the draft. What we've done free agency wise is to either fill empty holes or pick up guys that are low risk with potential.

The only thing that doesn't really fit the mold is the RG3 pick up. While we got him at a relatively cheap price for a QB, he's about as high risk/high reward as it comes. It has, however, thrown a monkey wrench into draft prognostications...do we still pull the trigger on Goff or Wentz? Do we wait to hit on someone like Lynch or Cook?

Honestly, I have no idea what the hell we're going to do. Here's hoping the FO does. Because if the draft goes poorly, myself and many others will end up agreeing with Mac and be calling for Sashi's head before the season even starts.

No, you didn't do that. I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I just didn't want to name the poster. It wasn't Devil, either. I figured I'd better put that out there because he said something about preseason.

Anyway..........good discussion.

APRIL FOOLS!

/

It happens to 31 FOs every season,

My question is. If the front is always lying like some would believe ( not saying that's you, just to be clear). how are we to know for sure what their goals truly are?...sorry just popped into my head when I read this.

ThAt was a good one.

Right up there with nanziel to Denver

I can't say as I blame you for feeling that way and I too hope your hunch is wrong. I think I saw the same interview you are talking about with Shefter.. I recall him saying someone from the Broncos would call the Browns during the Joe T talks and it was like getting a different person on the phone each time. No one knew who the point of contact was or who had final say in anything. Having said that though, I've seen/heard enough differences between now and when Haslam first took over that have brought me to at least a neutral ground on him.

When Haslam first took over I think on paper we were set up for success... successful, experienced football guys in Banner and Lombardi, Chud may not have been the pick of the litter, but he wasn't a lump of crap either, plus Horton was up and coming, and we landed Norv... who the hell wouldn't want Norv??? I think Jimmy had all them on paper and thought it would just all work out on its own. On paper it should have, but I think the one thing missing was a unifying vision and philosophy. I remember Banner saying Chud was pissed when he up and traded TRich (ended up being the right move, but it sounded like Chud was blind sided by it)... plus Norv had some hard feelings toward the FO at the end of the season because they wouldn't adequately address the RB position. Why he blew it up after that season? I obviously don't know. Could be he still had delusions of gandeur about where the team should be at that time? Maybe Banner and Lombardi told him they couldn't work with this group of coaches? Being football men he deferred to their judgement?

In any event, the next season we didn't have any choice really but to hire Pet. Shanny was the only guy who really brought any legitimacy and even he hasn't been without controversy of his own. And of course Shanny left for his own reasons.

I think through this point Haslam sorely underestimated what it was going to take to put the organization together. I believe he may have even alluded to that in one of the pressers when he announced we'd be doing it more analytically.

Now the things that mitigate my feelings of Haslam being a clown is that he apparently spent a few months actually engaging people and working on that "unifying concept". What turned him on to the analytics approach I don't know, but I think he did go big when he started meeting with Depo. So he spent more time investing himself, which may or may not be a good thing lol.

Another thing that I think mitigates the idea of "same old same old" for me is the promotion of Sashi and the hiring of Depo. People criticize one for being a lawyer and the other for being a baseball guy... but look what it got us? We were able to land one of top HC candidates this past off season... a HC that so far has managed to bring in one of the more experienced staffs we've not seen in Cleveland in what feels like forever. I don't think Hue is a stupid man and I would bet that he had a "show me" type of moment with the FO in terms of what they were promising. I think we are seeing that with what appears so far to be Hue having so much control/say on the QB position.

Of course motives and outcome are purely speculation on my part. These are just some things that jump out to me that I interpret as a sign something different is finally being done.

Oh, I should disclose the following admission: whenever I travel up north I make it a point to stop and fill up at the Pilot/Flying J's... the fuel prices are usually good, I feel like I'm supporting my Browns... and honestly, I'm not a professional driver so it's not like I have to worry about reimbursements...

We view Haslam differently, but your post was logical and respectful. Good discussion.

We are so used to bad front offices that "some people" on here automatically put this front office in the same category ... PLEASE lets give them more than a FA period that's not even over to Judge them ...

Farmville...As of now, what I dislike about this front office is "their performance"...
...their inability to perform the basic functions most NFL franchises are able to perform on a regular basis.

Free agency was their first real test...sadly, they lived up to my expectations. When the latest edition of the Cleveland Browns front office was announced, I withheld my opinion until after I first did some research on Sashi and Depodesta,

Also, the guy who hired Sashi and Depo...Jimmy Haslam, is just as much to blame...hiring individuals who lack football experience, putting them in charge of the Browns front office. As I said above, their first real test was free agency and they proved to be who I thought they were, failing to sign any of the Browns free agents, creating more holes to fill.

Why would Haslam select Sashi Brown to head the front office? To crawl into Jimmy Haslam's head in an attempt to figure out why he does what he does...good luck figuring him out.

Haslam likes to talk about how he learned "the Steeler's Way" of how to build a successful football franchise while he was "a minority owner" of the Steelers for 4 years (2008-12). Haslam continues to say he is building the Browns using the Steelers as a blueprint...building via the draft.

Problem is, Haslam is not being truthful nor honest about following "the Steelers model". Either Haslam believes that Browns fans will simply gobble up "his bull" without checking the facts or he never did know what "the Steelers Way", was...take your pick.

In 1969 the Steelers began to make major changes, as owner Art Rooney, (owner since 1933) started turning over power to his son, Dan Rooney, who in 1969, filled the role of GM and hired Chuck Noll as HC. Dan Rooney only held the GM position for 2 years, 69 and 70... then in 1971, Dan Rooney hired Dick Haley as GM of the Steelers.

Since Haley was hired, the Steelers model consisted of a front office headed by a Director of Player Personnel/General Manager, who had a strong background "in football"...THAT HAS BEEN THE STEELERS MODEL SINCE 1971.

Haley played football in HS, College and the Pros...a CB for 3 different NFL teams including the Steelers from 1961-64. Haley also played college football at Pittsburgh, which amounts to 10 yrs of playing the game, college/pros. He worked as a scout and in personnel with the Dolphins before being hired by the Steelers, as their Director of Player Personnel/GM from 1971 to 91. Haley helped the Steelers to 12 playoff appearances in his 20 yrs as GM...4 AFC Championships and 4 Super Bowl victories.

In 1991, Chuck Noll's last season as HC, Tom Donahoe was named the Steelers GM and remained until after the 1999 season. Donahoe was a longtime high school coach before joining the Steelers organization in the mid 80s and worked his way up from scouting to GM. In Donahoe's 9 seasons as Steelers GM, they were in the playoffs 6 times and appeared in the 1995 Super Bowl (a loss).

In 2000, Kevin Colbert was named the Steelers GM, paired with Cowher who had been the HC for 9 seasons. Colbert played sports in HS, coached HS and College football, got into scouting in 1984 with the Dolphins and Lions, became the Steelers Director of football operations/GM from 2000 and continues to hold the GM position for the Steelers. In his 16 yrs as the Steelers GM, the team has been in the playoffs 10 times, winning 2 Super Bowls and losing 1 SB. Colbert continues to be the Steelers GM.

The point to this History Lesson?...when Haslam uses the Steelers as an example of how he is building the Browns, he is leaving out some very important facts. Since 1971, the Steelers HAVE NEVER hired a GM who did not have a strong background in football, coaching football or scouting football (HS,College or Pro),

Now, compare Haslam's picks for GM since becoming the Browns owner...
Joe Banner...experience on the business side, a salary cap guru, but "no experience" playing, scouting or coaching football at any level (HS/College/Pro). The Steelers would never pick someone like Banner to be the GM of their franchise...because he is simply "not qualified", by Steelers standards.

Ray Farmer...comes from a football background but he clearly needed more time to develop as an executive. An inexperienced Farmer, when paired with a first time HC, Mike Pettine, they were clearly were not a good match to work together. Also, I do not believe Farmer was given a free hand to make GM decisions without interference from upper management.

Sashi Brown...a Harvard lawyer by trade with no experience on the football side. IMO, he is unqualified to be a NFL GM.

Honestly, I do not know what Jimmy Haslam's problem is when it comes to hiring a GM who is "fully qualified", with a background based on playing, coaching and/or scouting football as well as experience on the personnel side.

I do have a suggestion for Jimmy...that he should feel comfortable with hiring Jed Hughes of Korn-Ferry to help find a GM who is fully qualified to fill the position of General Manager of the Browns. Korn-Ferry is the same outfit that helped Haslam with the coaching search that lead to the hiring of Hugh Jackson, as the Browns HC.

Jed Hughes coached for 10 years at 3 major colleges before jumping to the NFL where he coached for 8 yrs with the Vikings, Steelers and Browns.
1972–1973 Stanford (GA)
1974–1975 Michigan (LB)
1977–1981 UCLA (DC)
1982–1983 Minnesota Vikings (DB)
1984–1988 Pittsburgh Steelers (LB)
1989 Cleveland Browns (LB)

Hughes coached under 5 Hall of Fame Head Coaches...Bo Schembechler (University of Michigan), Chuck Noll (Pittsburgh Steelers), Bud Grant (Minnesota Vikings), John Ralston (Stanford University) and Terry Donahue (UCLA).

It is time for Haslam to admit that he needs some help getting the Browns management team right. Sashi Brown might be a cool guy with experience on the business side of NFL franchises, but he lacks experience on the football side, that may have been a factor in the Browns front office performance in free agency.

The sooner, the better...jmho..mac

Way too long Mac...the best posts are those that are 50 words or less. It's a message board.

As most of you know I seldom post in the football forum, the reason is it's just not worth it; look building a winning football team is simple, it really is but somehow we manage to blow it year in and year out.

Draft good players and keep them, simple. The Browns have for the past 3 years watched every good young player they have get to their second contract and leave, either because the Browns didn't want to pay them or because the Browns are a train wreck and they got to FA and figured let me get the hell out of here.

The simple part is this a group of good young players take time to improve and learn how they fit with the guys around them its just that simple.

So how do you get better?

Keep good young players at nearly any cost and we don't. We have lost so many good young players over the course of the past 3 seasons I honestly can't name them all the list is that long. Bring back all the young players we have lost over the course of the past 3 seasons and you have a good football team its that simple.

So how do you fix it? Any of you should have that answer honestly how can you not. Roster flipedge is the reason we lose, so stop the flipedge.

It's not because we change out management every year its because we let talented players leave.

The Browns have to pony up early and they have to pony up fair market value plus, but they don't want to so we lose. Look they could have kept every single player they have lost over the past 3 season but they choose cheap and that isn't going to get you out of the basement. This past off season was the end of any hope for at least the next 3-4 season.

I can sum up why we lose in 2 words JIMMY HASLAM. I often wondered if it was possible to have a worse owner then Junior well Haslam has proven it is...

That FACT isn't likely to change so I figure why care, when and if Haslam ever learns or figures out how this is done will be when we get better until then try just try to hold your stomach.

I guess what I'm trying to say is it hardly warrants debate anymore it really doesn't so I stay away and that actually saddens me because I have always been passionate about MY Browns but I just can't with Haslam there just is NO hope at least Junior tried...

Ummm guys....on a side note. ...where has spirt been? He is usually all over threads like this

I think our new front office got rid of him

j/c:

There has been talk of the Browns new FO not understanding that the NFL is a people business. They have had issues w/agents and other NFL execs. Here is more evidence that the nerds might be intelligent, but don't get the importance of playing nice w/people:




I suppose it isn't too surprising given the fact that the owner of the Browns is in charge of a company that had to pay a huge sum of money for fraud and cheating it's customers out of millions of dollars.

Possibly some insight on why we didn't re-sign Mack and Schwartz:

Football Outsiders: 2016 free agency cost benefit analysis

The Bad and Ugly Deals


Mitchell Schwartz RT 26 KC 5 $6,600,000 $20,700,000 6.95 7.16 -0.21

Alex Mack C 30 ATL 5 $9,000,000 $28,500,000 7.33 8.75 -1.42


"A bunch of very good players appear on the list of the deals that leave the signing team worse off for signing them. At the right price, any team would be thrilled to add players such as Alex Mack or Eric Weddle. But Age-Adjusted Value finds the 30-year-old Mack not worth his big deal ($28.5 million guaranteed), nor 31-year-old Eric Weddle worth his ($13 million guaranteed)."

Don't get too caught up in that. It's just an attempt to define something with numbers that is diametrically opposed to being defined by numbers. Not completely useless, no where near being proof of anything.

all i know is we had better draft very well ... which has no been the case since 99

we're putting a lot of eggs into that basket

Some little brain ideas for the Browns front office:

Change all your passwords to "incorrect". If you type it wrong, the computer will tell you that your password is incorrect. Analytics starts by being able to get into your computer.

Draft all your players from the same school. One of them is bound to be good. That's one better than we do most years.

In prospect interviews if a player brags about their 40 time make sure to ask them that is running one or drinking one. (We would have averted the Manziel situation right there!)

Right before the draft tell Haslam that the Feds are here with questions about Pilot Flying J. That should keep him out of your hair for a while.

If a prospect says that he'd be happy to be a Brown, check his Wonderlic test again.



Just some suggestions.

Out of all the moves the Browns have made the only one I really have a question about is not going 7 mil a year for Schwartz.

Mac didnt want to be here he left twice and we have Grecco and Erving.

Benji received ridiculous money for a special teamer that only catches the ball if noone is within 5 yards.

Loved Gipson but he wasnt the same player last year and Farmer screwed the pooch by tendering him last year with 2nd round tender.

Bad was a good special teamer but his only value.

Dansby sucked against the run last and just didnt fill holes consistently.

Whitner left to many playd on the field.

Starks cost us games with his dumbass penalties in bad situations


No one likes starting over but we can get the same amount of production from decent backup talent and rookies. Defense was sucking so much ass i bet they all woke up with corn in their teeth.

Yes, I am very much aware of that fact. It still doesn't change my premise, but maybe I could have laid it out a bit better:

By investing the time with Sashi and Depo, he was able to get people who were able to put together a system, or at least that "unifying" idea I mentioned earlier.

In a very smart move, one which Haslam personally steps away from, IS hiring the head hunting firm to find our HC.

Head hunters find Hue, bring him Berea where he sits down with Haslam, Sashi, and Depo (and Dee) and they tell him what they are trying to do organizationally.

At this point, Hue is still free to take the job or not. The fact that the firm set up the meeting vs. Hue walking in off the street really makes no real difference because in either event Hue still needed to be convinced to take the job.

I think what also works in their favor is that he cancelled the other 2 meetings he had later that week.

I could have sworn that Alex Mack is single, and that he is dating a Cleveland area teacher.

I think posters on this board are way more guilty of that than the media is. I can't tell you the number of times things are stated as fact when they aren't even close to being factual. They get repeated. Then again, and again, and again......and then it's been read so many times that most of the board comes to see it as fact.

And the crazy part is that if someone tries to correct the original information w/an article that has quotes in it, the OP gets offended and starts throwing words around like "coward," "hater," "biggest agenda poster on the board," etc around.

Wow... some of you guys go a little overboard 'following' our players.

...just kidding

You do realize we have heard this same line about continuity with every new FO and coaching staff that has been hired, right?

And you do understand that Haslam hasn't given any group three years to show anything since he's owned the team, right?

That should make us all hesitant to believe. However, it is not evidence or proof that it will not be different this time. Using that logic if you fail in your endeavor several times you should give up believing you'll never surpass your failures.

The caveat here is that we have no control over the outcome as we do in our personal attempts to succeed. That leaves us relying on our opinions which can be optimistic or pessimistic regarding the eventual outcome.

Either one is as valid as the other.