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I don't think Cardale makes it past the 2nd round. Jets are my new thought as a landing spot for him. I could see the allure of trying to re-unite him with Devin Smith, especially if this Fitzpatrick stare down drags on.

Bold Prediction:

Cardale Jones goes after the fourth round.

Wouldn't that be considered more of an italics prediction?

Missed opportunity. Move on.

I think he goes in either the fourth or fifth round and hoping we pick him up...hoping

I thought you said you haven't watched Cardale play? At least that is what I got out of the statement you made about "reading that he wasn't accurate."

What else do the Jets need?

We just drafted Manziel, but you want us to take Wentz.

I think the consensus is Geno is a bust.

I don't think Jones is as far as people make out. He missed Devin Smith and a true deep threat. Devin Smith is on the Jets. He'd have Marshall and Decker, too.

I would be stunned if Cardale goes in the second round. Lynch, Cook, Hackenberg should all go before he is picked. I mean in my mind it should play that way. But you never know stranger things have happened.

Not saying he is god of the NFL draft, but I really respect steve's opinion.

He thinks that Cardale will get drafted in the second or third round.

sorry I just cannot get there...but like I said stranger things have happened

I watched all his games during the 2014 season. And some during the 2015 season. I just haven't "studied" him the way I have Goff and Wentz.

Also, what's more bold than making a prediction about something you don't know much about?

Robert Mays on Goff:

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/03/30/nfl-jared-goff-cleveland-browns-tim-couch-2016-draft

Did I say "better prospect," or did I say "most talent?"

I get the feeling you aren't really interested in my opinion. I get the feeling that you only want to shoot it down because your mind is made up and it bothers you if anyone disagrees w/you about this year's quarterbacks.


Let me know if you really do care what I think, or it is just a trap so you can spring another attack on me. What was the last one? Oh yeah......

You touch on a whole lot of points in this post that don't directly relate to the point I was making *shrugs*. I posted the chart because it rates success throwing to various levels of the field. And it was posted in regards to Connor Cook. (btw-I actually have Wentz and Cook ahead of Goff.)

But, I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of PFF grading in regard to the QB success throwing to various levels of the field. Its not something overly complicated to track. As regards to ball placement the chart really doesn't directly speak to it. It only charting success throwing to certain level of the field and I trust that they can accurate track those metrics. But throwing success does suggestion accuracy, but it doesn't directly judge whether or not the ball was placed on the correct shoulder. But for me greater ball placement is a tough argument to make without at least similar success numbers.

Now, does that mean I think that chart is rock solid metric for a total QB rating? No. Otherwise I would have Goff as my top QB and I don't. Those success numbers could be a result of various different factors. One factor that imo benefits Doughty, Goff and Boykin is scheme. There are certain routes that spread QBs create and hit with more frequency then other schemes. Then you can look at who the receivers are and level of competition etc.

Now in regards to ball placement specifically with Goff, from the cut-ups I've watched he didn't have an issue in my eyes, for the most part his ball placement has been good. (I've even charted the Utah game, which we can discuss if you want, I'm a draft junkie and would look forward to it if you did).[/i] In regards to Cardale Jones his ball placement didn't stand out to me as being better then the other prospects I watched. UMD was one his better games, so naturally you can site instances from that game where his ball placement was +. But, we could highlight some of the best (or worst) throws from any prospect to make whatever conclusion we want.

But, you go me thinking about something.....Whenever possible I try to quantify numbers when charting games and you've given me an interesting +/- metric to track for: ball placement.

But net-net I gotta disagree with you about Jones having superior accuracy/ball placement. Would love to do a thread breakdown though.

Cheers

Why don't we all do it? Except do it all the way you know?

I suggested it earlier and I think QB discussions lends itself very well to this type of breakdown/analysis.

clevesteve, eotab, versatile dog anyone interested?

I know its ambitious, but was involved with it before in another forum and its was great.

Okay, fair enough.

I already mentioned Lynch, so I will not repeat. You also have to remember that I was replying to Mourg and that the Browns would trade down. I think that is huge.

The Browns have a ton of needs. After this year's free agency, they have even more. I would like for them to acquire more picks. I believe that Wentz and Goff will probably be gone by the middle of the first round. I think Lynch will be available towards the bottom of the first round and possibly at 32.

I think that Lynch actually is the riskiest choice of the top 4 quarterbacks, but we would not have to take him w/the second overall pick. However, I think he has the highest upside of those 4 qbs.

I have problems w/both Wentz and Goff at number 2.

--Goff's decision making boggles my mind at times. The guy himself has said that he doesn't know why he makes some of the throws he does. I think his intermediate to deep reads are very questionable. I think that will lead to picks in the NFL.

--Wentz is similar to Lynch, but I am really bothered w/how long it takes him to process what he sees at times. As you know from my past posts throughout the years, that trait is one I can not digest. It leads to picks, then sacks, then check-downs. It also bothers me that he didn't always light it up against inferior competition, despite playing on a team that had a huge advantage in talent over their opponents.

With all of that said, if Wentz, Lynch, Goff, and Cook were all available at the bottom of the first or at 32, I would take Wentz.

I am not one of those guys who say that if you take him at 32, than you should take him at 2. I am not bad-mouthing all of those posters who say that, but I think that is professional suicide.

And I need to reiterate this. A lot of people seem to think that I believe all these qbs suck. That is not true. I think they are all pretty decent. They just have something in their game that disturbs me. I much preferred the Bortles, Manziel, Teddy, Carr class to this one.

I do think one or more of these guys will be successful in the NFL......but damned if I know which one. I also think one or more will bust.......big time. That scares me.

Good idea, but I am not sure what you are saying in this part?

Still no reply about Brissett. Should I assume he doesn't exist on any of your big boards?

Brissett is a weird evaluation for me. I watch the game vs FSU in 2014 and think, my god why isn't he in the discussion for the #1 overall pick. Then I look at some other games and based off those, I wouldn't recruit him for my HS team.

Don't know if that helps or answers your question but it's the best I got.

Cool.

And I am not saying I am right. QB is the hardest position to evaluate in regards from transitioning from college to the NFL.

I don't want to start another argument w/certain folks, but the reliance on Spread and gimmicky offenses that only have one read makes it almost impossible to predict if they will transition well to the pro game.

That is one thing Wentz has going for him. His offense was not one of those gimmicky offenses. Lynch's offense.......I yi yi yi .......

Its a 2 pronged effort. The first part is choosing which areas will be scouted/graded and how will they be assessed. For example some basic areas are: accuracy, production, size etc. then how will they measured scale 1-5 or 1-10 and what does the levels on the scale mean...

The other prong is collective grading/discussion game cut-ups. I could post an example and open myself to a bunch of crickets/or intense discussion about how to grade certain plays.

I could post examples from previous or post a new example with a new prospect. If people are interested. I'm telling you it could be a lot of fun.

Sounds interesting to me. My worry is that a lot of people really don't read the educational posts. It's more about sticking w/one's opinion. LOL

But, I might play. I used to work for a collegiate scouting service, so let me know if you want my input on what we should be evaluating. I like your suggestions, but anticipation, pocket presence, throwing on time, reading defenses pre and post-snap, etc are pretty important.

Heaven forbid! You're meaning....analytics?

I have Jacoby in the 4th-5th round.

Why?

Name one freaking person who has knocked analytics? You do it in a subtle way, but you constantly insult people. Annoying as hell.

Jacoby Brissett, NC State
- 6-4, 236, 4.76/40 yd
- Lindy's has him as a 4th rounder
- "Will get a chance as a backup but short of major improvement as a downfield passer, that's his ceiling"

You very well know that there have been many snide references to the Harvard boys and analytics. And in no way was my post insulting to anyone...

I found it insulting. You are one of the many posters who make these general sarcastic comments that are designed to insult others who don't automatically buy into what the Browns are selling. I have no problem w/you defending the regime.

But, why there? We were having a productive conversation and you gotta throw your crap into it. "Heaven forbid..."

Please stop w/your agenda posting!

No doubt, at times the juice wasn't worth the squeezing but for the people that actually put in the effort and entered with an open mind it was fun. I know I learned a lot and maybe some others learned also.

For me the first place to start is choosing what to evaluate because there is a lot to evaluate and we can't do it all in the context we're attempting. Some of the categories we used last time were: accuracy, velocity, throwing motion, athleticism, escapability, dropback/footwork, experience, playmaking, size and toughness and then we define what each trait meant.

We used this scale:
1-does not demonstrate given ability
2-below average
3- average
4-above average
5-elite


and Drew Brees (in the pros) as baseline:
QB Eval-- Acc-----Arm----Ath/Esc-----Drop/Foot-----Exp-----Play-----Prod/Eff----Size----Thr/Mot--Tough
Brees------5-------3.5--------4-----------5------------n/a---------4----------5---------2----------5---------5

I like the traits you chose as well. How many traits do you want to go with? I have a comment/question about reading defenses though. In college I think efficiency/production are reflective of QB's ability to read defenses post snap. Pre-snap reads in college are tough to evaluate, most of the guys are getting the defense read for them by a coach on the sideline. I wonder about the accuracy of assessing pre-snap without knowing the rules of the play concept. It could look to us that the QB should be reading one side of the field based on the strength or the box count or the middle field open/closed but without knowing the rules for that play concept it could be off.

But, we also did group eval/discussion of game cut-ups:

http://es.redskins.com/topic/329902-a-closer-look-at-2011-qb-prospectscam-newton/?p=8175790

http://es.redskins.com/topic/329902-a-closer-look-at-2011-qb-prospectscam-newton/?st=0

here is a link to a Cam Newton breakdown (i'm darrelgreenie)

Just watched Cal's bowl game. I wish Weston Steelhammer hadn't gotten ejected for targeting early on. Goff did carve up the rest of the Air Force D pretty well.

He had awful big windows. Still, he did make some good throws. I'll definitely take Wentz for the QB power plays, though.

Just on the throwing part of the equation, I think Wentz and Goff are pretty close. I still like Wentz' athleticism and what I have seen/read of his intangibles better.

I watched Wentz against Montana again, too. I'm not really seeing the slow processing that you do, Vers. A play or two here or there, like the deep out to the top sideline could have been thrown earlier, but for the most part he looked pretty quick to me. Wentz did miss some deep throws. I wish he'd had receivers with more speed.

I control what I post, and the content contained therein, but have no control over how the post is received. There is no effort, intentional or otherwise, to insult anyone...

Hmmmmm..........interesting.

I will do this upfront. I think I initially misjudged you. I apologize. I actually thought you might be RGIII's dad. LOL....no kidding.

Anyway.....let me think about the criteria for a moment. We can pm each other about setting it up. I'm cool w/your rubric, but perhaps we add a few things?

I agree w/you that we probably should eliminate the reads. I think we should probably eliminate both. Too many college qbs are only asked to make one read. Maybe we can put a Miscellaneous category? For example, Teddy Bridgewater was excellent at making pre and post-snap reads in college. We could add comments like that, there.

There are some pretty smart guys on this board. We just let our junk get in the way. You'll like Deputy. I couldn't stand the dude at first, but he's really smart. steve is the draft king. I'm hoping you will be another positive addition to the board and we can talk more football and less agenda.

Just wondering, do you have anything positive to add to the discussion other than "Heaven forbid........?"

This just doesn't deserve a response...

That's what I thought..............

How about this......until you have something worthwhile to add to the discussion and not trash other posters for not having the same opinion as you..............say nothing. We will all be better off.

You are killing the discussion. Please stop!