DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2016 NFL Season 2016 NFL Draft Quarterback Shopping Cont.

I don't think production/efficiency necessarily correlate(s) to ability to read defenses.

While I think you have to exhibit a certain level of production, I think it is difficult to standardize a production score due to differences in opportunity. What methodology/system do you use? I feel like you'd almost have to use numbers on a per attempt basis, but what you'd use (yards, TDs, some formula combining various per attempt numbers) would be tough to come up with for a version that is...fair.

I probably won't participate myself as I'm reaching crunch time of the semester and have a lot of projects to work on, but I am interested in seeing what you all come up with.

Alright y'all.........what do you think about this in regards to categories for qbs? I am NOT listing these in order of importance, but perhaps we can do that later?

--Arm strength

--Accuracy: [20 +; 11-19; 0-10; Behind LOS subcategories]

--Leadership [very subjective, I know]

--Size/Build

--Pocket presence

--Escapability

--Anticipation [I will explain exactly what this means if anyone wants me to. It's more complex than most people think]

--Poise

--Vision

--Mechanics

--Intangibles

--Miscellaneous [reading defenses, off the field issues, age, etc]

Intangibles are too hard to put a number on without knowing inside information (unless they are glaring one way or another).

Thanks jester. I think we've approached the over analyze line on the main prospects. I see some truly great tape on the guy that screams pro bowl to me. Arguably the least talked about qb In the draft. I'd ask anyone willing to rewatch actual tape and let me know if I'm crazy.

Do you EVER have anything positive to say?

Would you consider this attacking a negative poster?

Thanks for your contributions, cfrs.


Oh well, ed............I don't think your idea will work on this board. I love the idea, though. Education is not big on this board. It's more about compensating for small body parts.

You're welcome.

Also, I don't expect you to read ALL of my posts. But I post positive things all the time. Like a lot.

Would you consider this attacking a negative poster?

If so, I would like a sincere apology (I determine if it sincere or not).

When? You criticize every poster on the board.

If you didn't want to participate in the new guy's idea, why not just shut the hell up?

The new guy that you immediately criticized for being new?

Also, you asked this:



I took issue with one of your categories. Where you asking a rhetorical question?

Why do you have to make EVERYTHING a fight?

I already apologized to the guy. And it wasn't because he was freaking NEW. It's because he said what my comments were "not true." I've moved past that. So has he.

We are trying to have a football discussion. Why the hell does that bother you?

If you don't want to participate, shut the hell up!

If you do want to participate, please offer constructive suggestions.

Likewise, in retrospect my visitors etiquette wasn't the best. I came off a bit strong. There was so much drama here with the way Griffin was covered that its a sensitive subject with me. I still shake my head at how the organization in Ashburn screwed things up with the best QB prospect that I've ever seen come through Ashburn. But we can leave there where it lays for now.

Works for me, I'll hit you up tomorrow I took the day off. I edited the previous post to links from the first attempt at this another forum.

Agreed.

I'm on several boards and this one has some real football discussion going on. (skins, dolphins, titans, seahawks, panthers and another browns forum no where near as good as this one)
And if I didn't say earlier thanks to all for the warm welcome.

Interesting stuff.

I appreciate your intelligence. I doubt we get to do the qb thing. This is the best board I have seen, but we still have too many posters that make it about personalities rather than football.

I'll play if others will. I just get the feeling that certain posters will shoot holes in intelligent debate because the latter's comments don't fit in w/their opinions.

Cheers to you as well...

Here is a link to the FSU game - he looks great

http://draftbreakdown.com/video/jacoby-brissett-vs-florida-state-2014/

Here is a link to the Wake Forest game - he looks terrible

http://draftbreakdown.com/video/jacoby-brissett-vs-wake-forest-2014/

These are both 2014 games. I scanned some 2015 games today but they were uploaded since the last time I tried to check him out, so I have not looked at any of the 2015 games in depth. You can link to any of those games from either of the links in this post.

I think he makes a valid point on intangibles, especially leadership. It'd be very difficult to place a number on that, and it's one of the few things in your otherwise good list that seems like it doesn't quite fit.

If you asked 10 different people on how they rate leadership in a QB, you'd probably get 10 different answers. Hell, most wouldn't know how to answer because we see very little.

For some people, Tom Brady screaming at his teammates is good leadership and would earn a higher grade. For others, it may make him look like a hothead. Some people think that a leader should be the last to leave for the night, but others think that as long as he has set those under him up for success, a good leader lets them be and do their own thing if they need to stay late.

Correct me if I'm wrong cfrs, but isn't this what you meant?

For my knowledge, how would rate leadership on Wentz, Goff, and Lynch?

I don't even know where I'd start.

Like when I said one of your categories was not good and you attacked me?

Never mind. Bad idea.

I'll have to go back and check out 2014 tape especially wake forest. I've seen them but I've focused more on 2015. Probably watchedo them 4x each. I use breakdown too. Best site there is. Let me know what you think when you get to check out 2015. Anyone else feel free to chime in as well. EO and Vers and all the other longtimers love to have you guys input from real tape as opposed to scouting reports.

I hope we use the high pick on an impact player from day 1 and take Cardale Jones later. I think Hue could develop Jones over a couple of seasons to be one of the best in Football. He can through the ball a mile and on target. Plus he is big enough to take some punishment. He has my vote for QB this year.

Ultimately, I don't care who we take as long as we sort the QB situation sooner rather than later. None of the top prospects look like locks to me.

Ok, I must start by stating the obvious. I didn't write either of these articles so please keep that in mind and resist the impulse to turn this into something personal with me (we know this never happens here) .

I will say that both articles contain specific, concrete observations and evaluations that I have felt intuitively but do not have the wherewithal to put together as the writer has done.

Do with them what you will...

Presnap Read - Carson Wentz


Presnap Read - Cardale Jones with some Wentz on the side

Cian Fahey Tweet

Couldn't figure out how to embed a tweet on here, but there's a link.

That's the first I've really heard of Wentz having heavy feet. Kurt Warner was complimentary of his footwork at the combine.

It's funny to me how analysts can look at the same play and see completely different things. For example there was a throw to the sideline where the Montana defender barely deflects it that is pointed out as a negative in that analysis. Elsewhere it's said to be a great throw and could hardly have been placed better, but was an equally great play by the DB.

I also question the references where Fahey talks about Wentz missing wide open receivers. While Wentz does miss open receivers at times, the gifs he referred to show the DBs basically in the hip pocket of his receivers, and they might as well be the ones running the routes. I wish Wentz had had receivers that were better at creating separation on their own/outside of scheme.

He also sees throw aways as a negative, calling them wasted downs. I'm at worst neutral, as I believe in living to play another down.

I also don't think Jones feet are as good as he made out. Jones has improved them, but the example he gave didn't look really in sync/connected top to bottom to me.

I actually do like Jones, but I like Wentz better. Jones' "intangibles" are iffy.

Wentz does need to improve his deep ball accuracy, but at the same time he didn't have receivers who had that other gear to let him put air under balls and let them go get it.

On the ball to Vraa on the comeback to the bottom sideline, I've heard the bad ball placement argument before and that could be the case. At the same time, it wasn't a very good comeback route. The WR rounded at the top and drifted towards the sideline, if he'd comeback sharply the placement would have looked much better.

His ball placement is off occasionally, and his receivers did make some nice catches. I don't think they were often "better" than the DBs covering them, though.

Thanks for the articles still. I hadn't seen them before. They give me something else to look at.

I'm gonna chart a game for group discussion here pretty soon. If I make the choice, my concern is that everyone will assume bias.

Are there any suggestion for a particular prospect from a particular game to get started?

How dare you post such nonsensical rubbish!!!

LOL..........just kidding. Thanks for posting those. A lot of good information in them.

I don't agree w/some of the takes, but I certainly agree w/parts.

I think Wentz processes too slow and he benefited from having the clean pockets and wide open receivers.

I do not agree w/the author about Cardale's processing ability and his footwork. I think those are two areas that Jones struggles with.

Cian Fahey: Football Outsiders write the weekly "Film Room" also writes for Football Guys, Bleacher and does various radio hits

author of: Pre-Snap Reads Quarterback Catalogue 2016
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/store/pre-snap-reads-quarterback-catalogue-2016
^^Comprehensive charting of all the NFL QBs

I thought I already posted this link to an article that imho should be a must read for Browns fans:

http://presnapreads.com/2016/03/24/robert-griffin-iii-is-a-great-signing-for-the-cleveland-browns/

Seriously, ^ this is worth the time for any Dawg.

Another Top 5 QB Article

Another QB ranking article to add to the pile.

Cook vs. Oregon maybe? Just to see how it goes, before getting into the more fiercely supported top 3.

From my perspective it comes down to this. None of the QBs warrant being selected #2 overall. All of the QB candidates will require development and significant time to be viable starters. The gap between the presumptive fist rounders and Jones is razor thin to the degree their is any margin whatsoever.

I don't think I'll change any posters minds. So be it.

The analytic approach being touted for this regime should sort this out. The reality is that QB evaluation is laden with projection to a much larger degree than any other position in professional football.

What I find compelling in those articles is that it's not solely conjecture. His criticisms are evidenced based with visual examples that can be seen by anyone. How they are interpreted is up to the viewer.

2 things guard: note I haven't looked at those articles.

1, just because they can demonstrate a point with video doesn't mean that's necessarily the case. You could take Peyton Manning's best year in the pros and find an example to illustrate all those deficiencies.

Might be, might not be. Just be wary of taking one example as the trend.

2, Let's say that you are correct that the gap between Jones and the presumptive 1st rounders is razor thin. How long do you wait to take him? If you think the gap is that small wouldn't others? You pass on a Qb at #2 and #32 planning to take Jones in the top of the 3rd. What happens when some other team takes him in the later part of the 2nd? Then what do you do?

People said that Mariota wouldn't be ready right away and yet he started the season. I think Wentz is mentally ahead of where Mariota was as far as operating under center, in the huddle, making line calls, and audibles. I've heard mixed reviews on his on the field processing, but Mariota was knocked in some places for the simplified reads in the system he operated. Supposedly, the NDSU offense uses NFL concepts and progressions. I think he will have to adjust to the speed of the game, but that is true of every rookie, every year to some extent. I like Ramsey, but with the ways the rules are for DBs/the passing game, I'm not sure he's the best value. I like Wentz at 2. I think he could be ready sooner rather than later. Ramsey is my second choice.

I've heard analytics tossed around a lot about this FO, but I'm not sure how exactly they are using them. I'm not sure they are being used in scouting draftable players, so much as in various other processes (cap allocation, tendencies, weight training, injury prevention, etc.)

He gives the gifs and a commentary, but they don't match up particularly well to me. He has some good points, but he also has some head scratchers.

1) I guess I'd have to ask how does one best present an argument without demonstrable evidence to support it? If anyone viewing such evidence chooses to dismiss it as selective or displaying bias, what can I say to that? My point was that there has been a lot of talk about the relative merits of one QB vs. another a great deal of it is simply opinion based. (Why do I fee the need to say that everyone is entitled to those opinions.) Look, I didn't say once this is the all encompassing, definitive and unerring scouting report on Wentz. It does a good job of supporting the assertions put forth by the author with tangible evidence we can see. I've already said "do what you will", "I don't expect to change any ones mind".

The facts are that Wentz's flaws are their to be seen. The fact is that he displayed those flaws against competition that is commonly judged to be a tier below FBS competition.

2) The draft involves chance. There is also some art involved in the selecting of players. If the conventional wisdom is to be believed Wentz, Goff, Lynch, Cook, possibly Prescott and even Hackenburg will be coming off the board ahead of Jones. If the rate at which these players are drafted accelerates and the Browns want Jones they will need to adjust. As a professional franchise they should be running through a number of scenarios as we speak that anticipate various eventualities.

Are you suggesting that if Wentz and Mariota were both in the same draft class that you would give equal evaluation to their readiness to play? Besides what exactly does Mariota have to do with Wentz? I don't see the corollary.

Normally I try not to be excessively caustic. I'm not intending to be now. Still I have ask, how do you objectively assess Wentz's football IQ as being ahead of Mariota? Because he took snaps under center? I'm relying on you to provide that answer since you're making that assertion.

I'd probably give Wentz a higher grade for NFL offense/QB responsibilities readiness at this point in the process. I think Wentz will be ready sooner rather than later. I was using Mariota as an example of someone who was supposed to face a big adjustment moving to the NFL game and started fairly successfully right away.

Did you read the article from Wentz' OC talking about his responsibilities within the NDSU offense? He did a lot which I mentioned some of earlier. He was on Gruden's QB camp and showed well in what I saw. He was in the most pro-style offense of the top 3 QBs, and only Hogan and Cook's are really comparable of the rest of the "draftable" QBs(those two offenses were probably more "Pro"). I think he has a pretty good handle on the mental side of being a QB. The biggest adjustment will be speed, and the only way to really adjust/get used to that is to play. Wentz already has the Pro build.

Nothing has been said that is more true than that. I am extremely skeptical of those who are certain that their guy is thee guy.

I think I'm to the point that I'd just rather pass on a QB at 2. Just try to add an impact player.

I don't think you sign someone like RG3 if you don't intend on playing him and seeing what he has.. And adding a Top 5 Rookie to the mix just makes it more complicated..

If it was Just McCown out there taking hits and losing games, with a #2 QB on the bench, it would make "sense" but when Griffin goes out there, people I think will be too quick to want to pull the plug on him and throw the rookie in there..

Look for a mid to late round guy to develop, find out what you have in Griffin, while adding more pieces to the team.

1, not saying to dismiss it, just saying to look at it with a critical eye. Look at his breakdowns yourself and see if what if being touted (good or bad) is a trend or an aberration. Sometimes the authors have an agenda, sometimes they are lazy and find one example then stop looking and use that as mantra. Other times they are spot on. Trouble is figuring out which.

2, you know what they say about best laid plans... A couple years ago, there was this Qb out of Wisconsin that I was really high on. I wanted us to draft him in the top of the 5th sooo badly. Unfortunately he went in the 3rd. I don't remember any projections for him to go as high as the 4th round let alone 3rd. Yet there was Seattle, thwarting my great idea. Would he Browns have drafted him in the 5th? Doubtful but who knows. But I cannot say that as GM of the Browns that I would have drafted Wilson because he was taken 2 round ahead of where he was projected. Tqught me a lesson.