DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Abortion Penalties

Abortion has been a hot topic on this board for a very long time. Yet a recent political and moral question has come to the forefront recently and I'm wondering how the board would respond. Yes it is a hypothetical question at this point in time, but one that brings up some interesting scenarios.

Let's say, for the sake of argument that Roe verses Wade is overturned and abortion becomes illegal. If it is found that life begins at the time of conception, abortion would qualify as murder. I have seen many posters downright state it is murder.

At that juncture, was Trump right when he said that the woman receiving that abortion should be punished? Let's face it, if a woman hires a hit man to murder her husband, she is committing a felony that will result in prison time. You can describe it as a murder for hire, accessory to murder or whatever you will. But if such a law were passed, I would find it hard to believe that anyone that was involved in the commission of a murder should simply be absolved of the crime. What about a husband, a parent, boyfriend, or even friend knowingly taking them to get that abortion? Wouldn't or shouldn't they also be considered an accomplice to murder?

Even the president of the Right For Life foundation is not willing to say a women should be punished for such an act. Yet how can one state that abortion is murder and claim that a willing accessory to such a crime go unpunished?

Did Trump back off of his original stance to garner votes and become PC on the subject? I'm very interested in the opinions of our posters concerning this matter.

"If Congress were to pass legislation making abortion illegal and the federal courts upheld this legislation, or any state were permitted to ban abortion under state and federal law, the doctor or any other person performing this illegal act upon a woman would be held legally responsible, not the woman. The woman is a victim in this case as is the life in her womb. My position has not changed -- like Ronald Reagan, I am pro-life with exceptions,"

-Donald Trump

You do realize just hours before this, he said the woman should be punished, right?

My question is for everyone who believes abortion is murder. I already know that Trump changed his mind in a matter of a few hours. I asked for opinions from the posters on this board, not Donald Trumps.

What about the father of the child. If he had a part in the decision, he should also be charged.

I'm overall pro life, but with exceptions - rape, if the mother's health is at risk carrying the baby to full term, or if it is known early that the child will have severe handicaps. I could argue age as well, if a kid is having a kid for example, but I am not a proponent of using abortion as a form of birth control.

But, to be honest, it isn't a decision for me to make. A bunch of men (mostly) making a decision on women's health issues doesn't seem right to me.

The political claim—that women were or will be prosecuted or jailed under abortion laws—has been made so frequently by Planned Parenthood, NARAL, and NOW over the past 40 years that it has become an urban legend. It shows the astonishing power of contemporary media to make a complete falsehood into a truism.

For 30 years, abortion advocates have claimed—without any evidence and contrary to the well-documented practice of ALL 50 states—that women were jailed before Roe and would be jailed if Roe falls (or if state abortion prohibitions are reinstated).

This claim rests on not one but two falsehoods:

First, the almost uniform state policy before Roe was that abortion laws targeted abortionists, not women. Abortion laws targeted those who performed abortion, not women. In fact, the states expressly treated women as the second “victim” of abortion; state courts expressly called the woman a second “victim.” Abortionists were the exclusive target of the law.

Second, the myth that women will be jailed relies, however, on the myth that “overturning” Roe will result in the immediate re-criminalization of abortion. If Roe was overturned today, abortion would be legal in at least 42-43 states tomorrow, and likely all 50 states, for the simple reason that nearly all of the state abortion prohibitions have been either repealed or are blocked by state versions of Roe adopted by state courts. The issue is entirely academic. The legislatures of the states would have to enact new abortion laws—and these would almost certainly continue the uniform state policy before Roe that abortion laws targeted abortionists and treated women as the second victim of abortion. There will be no prosecutions of abortionists unless the states pass new laws after Roe is overturned.


This political claim is not an abstract question that is left to speculation—there is a long record of states treating women as the second victim of abortion in the law that can be found and read. To state the policy in legal terms, the states prosecuted the principal (the abortionist) and did not prosecute someone who might be considered an accomplice (the woman) in order to more effectively enforce the law against the principal. And that will most certainly be the state policy if the abortion issue is returned to the states.

Why did the states target abortionists and treat women as a victim of the abortionist?

It was based on three policy judgments: the point of abortion law is effective enforcement against abortionists, the woman is the second victim of the abortionist, and prosecuting women is counterproductive to the goal of effective enforcement of the law against abortionists.

The irony is that, instead of states prosecuting women, the exact opposite is true. To protect their own hide, it was abortionists (like the cult hero and abortionist Ruth Barnett when Oregon last prosecuted her in 1968), who, when they were prosecuted, sought to haul the women they aborted into court. As a matter of criminal evidentiary law, if the court treated the woman as an accomplice, she could not testify against the abortionist, and the case against the abortionist would be thrown out.

There are “only two cases in which a woman was charged in any State with participating in her own abortion”: from Pennsylvania in 19111 and from Texas in 1922.2 There is no documented case since 1922 in which a woman has been charged in an abortion in the United States.

Based on this record—spanning 50 states over the century before Roe v. Wade—it is even more certain that the political claim that any woman might be questioned or prosecuted for a spontaneous miscarriage has no record in history and will certainly not be the policy of any state in the future.

There's a lot more at the link.

But in your opening post you brought Trump into the thread...

"At that juncture, was Trump right when he said"...

So I posted Trumps Official Position on the subject...

"If Congress were to pass legislation making abortion illegal and the federal courts upheld this legislation, or any state were permitted to ban abortion under state and federal law, the doctor or any other person performing this illegal act upon a woman would be held legally responsible, not the woman. The woman is a victim in this case as is the life in her womb. My position has not changed -- like Ronald Reagan, I am pro-life with exceptions,"

-Donald Trump

It is your thread however, sorry I broke the "PitDawg Rule".

Oh it isn't a PitDAWG rule, but so far you have avoided the questions.

That's a good reply, but it still doesn't answer the question. How can abortion be called murder without punishing the accomplices of the murder by criminal prosecution?

I have already posted twice and twice have been admonished, I am still learning your RULES before I can say more.

If you read it, I ask for the opinions of the posters concerning the subject. If you wish to answer the questions posed, then fine. If not you'll have to excuse me for ignoring your forth coming posts in this thread with your clearly obvious attempt at derailing it.

Hey, I tried.

I'll answer it.. Yes!! It's murder.. If the law says abortion is illegal and a woman has an Abortion it's murder.. Which it is anyways.. And she should be punished for murder... The president of the right to life makes no sense to me.. He's afraid of the liberal media.. That's my answer and I'll never back away from it.. On the Internet or face to face

Being a guy, I gotta tell you, I don't think it's my business to tell a woman (any woman) what she can and can't do with regards to her body.

I believe it's between her and her god (whichever religion she practices)what she does. But ultimately, it's her body. So I believe it's her decision to make. It's also her choice on how to deal with it.

I'm not one who believes that the Government should interfere and try to legislate this matter.

Thanks for your honest opinion on the subject. I don't blame anyone for their opinion on the subject.

I don't know.

Pit, if you're driving down the road tonight, and you cause an accident that kills a pregnant woman, should you be charged with 2 counts of manslaughter? If so, why? If not, why?

I could not have said it better myself Tulsa. Kudos for your post.

Voleur

I believe the law is that you would be prosecuted for two murders. I also believe if you murder a pregnant woman you would be charged with two murders. That's why I have asked the questions I have asked in part.

I'm not planning to judge or argue with the opinions of others in this thread. That's not my goal. As you have pointed out, the laws on this matter don't line up. If it's considered murder if you kill a fetus during a murder, why is killing a fetus during an abortion legal?

None of that adds up and I'm simply looking for the opinions of others in how they feel a law against abortion should be enforced and enforced upon.

As a guy, I disagree with you. It is not her body I am concerned about. It is the body of the child that concerns me when if comes to abortion. If a woman were to have sex with a child, would you state that you as a man would not feel you could tell her what she cannot do with her body? The inference is that there is a second person involved, in the abortion it is the child and in the sex with a minor case there is the minor child. I find the "as a guy" statement does not usually include me even though I am a guy.

Voleur

I also won't disagree with your opinion, but that really wasn't my point. My point was predicated on if abortion were made illegal. If in fact the law stated that abortion was murder, how should the law work in regards as to who was implicated in the crime of murder upon a fetus.

So, the husband or boyfriend should have no say in the matter?

A woman can't get pregnant without a man, right?

Nope, I'm not a woman, so I should have no say?

I never served in the military, so my comments on any military action don't matter? (think: Obama, Clinton)

If the law makes it illegal, then sure, the woman and anybody else involved should be charged with murder.

Im glad it's not the case though. And like everything else, when these abortion lawsuits against these states hit the SC, it'll be overturned.

Too many factors have to change in this country for me to ever be anti-abortion. and many of those factors won't change so I will ALWAYS support the women's right to choose.

And yes, Trump went PC on this.

No archibold,

As a veteran, I prohibit you from ever having an opinion on military matters. hehe Just kidding. I have never been a police officer. I would like to think I can have an opinion on public policing.

To the point of someone being charged with two counts of murder/manslaughter when they only kill one pregnant woman. How do you resolve the dichotomy? If the fetus is alive when the pregnant woman is killed isn't the fetus alive when being killed by the abortionist?

If this were illegal and the man has a say, then the man is also punished if an illegal abortion occurs.

When scientists determine when a fetus becomes alive or a human, or whatever the criteria is, then that's when you'll have your answer.

I, swish, doesn't give a damn, because I don't have to live with the decision on whether to abort or not. So whenever an doctor wants to conduct the procedure is between the doctor, the woman, and the guy.

It's not my problem.

I think the bigger question Eve is if Row verses Wade were overturned, should abortion be considered murder and should the punishment reflect that equal of murder?

Most pro life people I've discussed this with consider abortion to be murder of an unborn child. If that is accepted into law, wouldn't it be logical to treat abortion in the same context we consider murder?

In an ideal world people would be punished every single time they broke a law.

That was my basis on the weed stuff, call the cops on Swish or vote against drug laws. Otherwise you're just promoting laws to punish people you aren't friends with.

Things shouldn't be all loosey-goosey. It allows way too much bias and favoritism. Going by the book every single time is the only way to make things fair. And if you go by the book, but the book is unfair, you change the book.

Well, if abortion were illegal, the only way you could have one would be to go to another country or use some super shady doctor with questionable facilities. In the latter situation it would be murder according to the law. I'm not so sure about the former.

Bringing unwanted children into this world is what should be illegal. I'm sorry but in my mind the woman primarily (but I also think the father if they are a couple) should have the right to choose what they want to do.

Yes I agree that adoption is an alternative to abortion, but how many kids go un-adopted everyday in this country? How many are raised as wards of the state? And on which logical reason, other than religious beliefs about when life begins, should we base our laws that would force a woman to have a child she does not want?

If life is so precious to you that this is an absolute wrong in your view, don't let me catch you eating meat or eggs! If all life is precious then animals should count too. Now I love animals and babies, but I'm having bacon and eggs for breakfast rather or not the government or your religion say I can.

So the only abortion penalties I think we should be discussing are the ones imposed on local and state lawmakers, anti-abortion groups or anyone else that uses shaming tactics, loophole laws, or blocks access to reasonable facilities and or funding for low income woman seeking abortions. THOSE are the criminals and our CURRENT laws need to address that situation.

and therein lies the problem. people will do whatever it takes.

make abortion illegal, and watch the old fashion coat hanger method spike up.

or the government assistant #'s go up.

or people simply leaving the country out of of principle.

there's gonna be a ton of issues. the pro-life people will go "but life is more important",

to which i respond: "if life is important, why allow guns".

Pit, i know you're original intent of the thread, and i hope i answered it in my first post.

but i just want to remind the board, just like religious freedom is pandora's box, so is making abortion illegal.

i want some of you guys to actually look at what you post in these threads. think about what you actually believe.

you aren't actually pro-life. you're just pro-birth.

there's nothing wrong with that. but just say you're pro-birth.

People should be ashamed of having abortions if they weren't raped or their birth control failed. People should be ashamed of potentially introducing a life into this world who is unwanted, unplanned for, and isn't going to be provided a stable family. If you can't figure out that a natural consequence of having sex is having children you shouldn't be having sex. I'd go further to say if you aren't capable of raising a child currently you shouldn't be having sex.

Social shaming is the fundamental mechanism society uses to punish negative behavior. A fear of shame, embarrassment, being disliked, and ostracism a major way society prevents people from ruining their lives with pleasurable in the short term, but destructive in the long term decisions. Social violence also was a protective mechanism...knowing that a girls father and brothers would beat the crap out of you if you slept with her before marriage stopped a lot of unintended pregnancies. Knowing if she did get pregnant you'd be forced into a shotgun wedding prevented a lot of unintended pregnancies.

This sex-positive pro-promiscuity crap is ruining western civilization. It is a succumbing to instant gratification. Ehhh we can just kill the baby if we have to, it's cool lets do it! Disgusting.

To tack onto my other thread. One of the most defining characteristics of a psychopath is their inability to feel shame.

I laughed throughout this entire post, of course in disagreement, but this stood out the most:



Right, because no sex before marriage, arranged marriage, and all that sex-NEGATIVE you like so much is the standard?

I'll buy you a one-way ticket to the middle east. they would love to have you join their population.

before you move, make sure you understand to not:

masturbate

look at any magazines like GQ, FHM, Maxim, or even Men's Health

Don't watch any chick flicks or action movies with the hot chicks in them

Don't even date. make sure you only get set up by the parents.

Man your post is hands down one of the most dumbest things i've ever read on this board.

"ruining western civilization"?

you can't possibly be serious. this is an April's fools joke, right?

there's plenty of problems in our society. but there are plenty of problems in other society, and sex isn't even remotely an issue.

there are countries in the middle east that share your beliefs, though. send me your address, i'll hook you up with a ticket.

Well hell Swish. There's posters on here that would be perfectly fine with us being a Christian version of Middle East.

Kinda hard to shame a wellfare queen who looks at a baby as a payday.

man CM, that's what i've been trying to tell people on this board for a while now.

they don't even realize that their rhetoric is a spitting image of people in the middle east, specifically some of the terrorist groups.

Why call muslim extremist the enemy when they sound just like them?

man CM, as much as i complain about racial issues, that's typically my only complaint about America.

I'm thankful everyday that our founding fathers made sure to not base our constitution and bill of rights from the bible.

I'm so glad that our laws protect us from crap like that man. I know you're religious, so i don't mean to offend you...but man dude. some people that are in your faith are no different than the guys they swear are enemies.

But if that's how they see it, why would they get an abortion? I mean they don't get a check that way do they?

Seriously? I would never intentionally hurt an animal but there is a difference here.. Animals are not on the same level as Humans.. Yes I know your Dog is better then alot of people you know but on the subject of Abortion, humans are above animals... Unless we're talking Eagles because you will get some serious time behind bars if you destroy Eagle eggs but kill all the Fetuses you want... Now tell me what's wrong with this picture?

Condoms cost money. So am sure they aren't keeping all those babies.

You do realize that abortions cross all color lines and economic status, right? That every color of American from every type of background seek abortions?

I mean you're entitled to any opinion you choose, but in case you missed it, abortions cost a lot more than codoms do and your welfare queen comment doesn't begin to cover the women who seek abortions.

ok.

if you're pro-life, start a petition to ban all weapons from the US. only police and military are allowed to have weapons.

i'm going to start calling out the "pro-lifers"