DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum RGIII Continued

Lynch would be a good fit too along with Dak Prescott.

My thinking, and it's just me thinking, is that signing RG3 won't change our plans regarding drafting a QB. If we really liked a QB at #2 then we will still go that route. If we were instead targeting a QB in the 2nd or 3rd, then we still are. The only potential change in plans I can see is if we were thinking about really reaching for someone just to make sure we got a QB. RG3 could tamper that urge. But if we had a plan we felt good about, RG3 should not have changed that.

Prescott was the other guy who came to my mind.

I have to agree with you Tab.

While such an O may help RG3 on a temporary basis, I don't believe it would be the O we would run for the long term. It would create excessive time away from the O actually learning the long term system which would detract from fluidity and continuity by the unit.

Common sense would dictate you install the system you will run for the long haul with only the possibility of a few wrinkles added in to help accentuate some of RG3's strong suits.

I would think Lynch and Driskel would be the best bets if we ran a read option.

Do not want.

Teams can (and should) run elements of the read option, but it should not be all they do. The Seahawks do it to great success, the Bengals also ran it with some frequency (and success), the Bills with Tyrod Taylor, the Panthers, Titans, etc.

The read option is a wrinkle teams can add to throw off a defense (not unlike running play action), but the QB needs to be able to do everything else as well.

I mentioned this awhile ago, and still think it's Wentz. Dude uses jump cuts, and has some experience with the read option. While Goff might be a better deep ball thrower, he's much more of a pocket manipulator than a runner.

While Cardale ran the read option some in Columbus, I don't think he was particularly good at it. QB Power/Draws he was solid, but as far as the option game his reads were questionable.

While Lynch is athletic, I'd put him a notch below Wentz as a runner. The shoulder medical stuff and longer limbs (longer levers, more force on joints) drop him a bit in the read option for me.

I think Prescott is more of the Jones mold as a runner. Can pick up tough yards, but not that explosive around the edge.

I don't think anyone has quite the skill set that RG3 does, but Wentz is probably the closest of the top-ish QBs.

I was all for Dak in the 3rd round.

If only he wasn't a dumbass.

Connor Shaw tells South Carolina newspaper Cleveland Browns quarterback job is 'open for competition'

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._medium=twitter


By Dan Labbe, Cleveland.com
Email the author | Follow on Twitter
on April 01, 2016 at 4:14 PM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Connor Shaw went from the opportunity of a lifetime to end 2014 to a season of lost opportunity in 2015. The second-year quarterback out of South Carolina spent all of last season sidelined with a thumb injury sustained during the opening game of the preseason after earning his first career start in the NFL to end the previous year.

While Shaw sat, the Browns quarterback carousel kept on turning at a dizzying pace, even relative to what Browns fans are used to experiencing. Seeking a third quarterback, the team signed Austin Davis prior to the season to back up Josh McCown and Johnny Manziel and Davis ended up appearing in three games, including two starts.

Shaw again finds himself in the background of the Browns quarterback situation as the team's offseason program kicks off next week. Manziel, of course, is gone, but McCown and Davis remain and Robert Griffin III signed here last week. On top of all that, the team is expected to draft a quarterback at the end of the month.

David Cloninger, a reporter for The State newspaper in South Carolina, caught up with Shaw at the University of South Carolina's Pro Day. Shaw told Cloninger that he was there "checking out former teammates." He also said he hopes to challenge for the team's starting quarterback job this season.

"The thumb feels great. I've been training throughout the season and offseason. My body feels good," Shaw told The State. "I've got calls from coach Hue (Jackson) and the personnel department. They're open for competition, so I'm no stranger to that."

Shaw, the winningest quarterback in South Carolina history, threw for 6,074 yards in four seasons with the Gamecocks and rushed for another 1,683 yards. He threw just one interception in 284 attempts his senior season. The Browns signed Shaw after he went undrafted in the 2014 NFL Draft.

Shaw started the team's final game of the season against Baltimore in 2014. He was pressed into duty after both Manziel and Brian Hoyer were unable to play due to injury. The Browns lost, 20-10, and Shaw threw for 177 yards and an interception while completing half of his 28 passes. The Browns held a 10-3 lead going into the final quarter of the game.

What a surprising take.

Are you tab's son?

Great reads on the coverages.

Now I get that it all happens ridiculously fast, but can't the additional film study play a big role in anticipating which coverage will likely be shifted to based off of tendencies against formation and down/distance?

On that subject, is there an example of a guy who threw a lot of INT's or took a lot of sacks in college who the "light came on" for and they ended up reading coverages very well?

Like you said accuracy is debatable. Walters football is a great site in the sense of the sheer volume of data that have in one site. But, their info and grades has been questionable imo. And reading their explanation for knocking his 'rawness' just didn't strike me as something a coach like Fuente would say about any of his QBs, much less his current QB. And since I'm a Fuente fan I decided to do a quick search and see what came up first hand from him about Paxton:

"His tools are unbelievable," Fuente says. "He's been blessed, and to his credit, he's been through tough times and he has worked hard to play well. He was not ready-made when he came out of high school. He had a lot of work to do and he's done it."

Perhaps even more impressive, Lynch is just scratching the surface of his potential according to Fuente, who previously tutored Cincinnati Bengals quarterback and Pro Bowler Andy Dalton in his previous job as TCU's co-offensive coordinator and quarterbacks coach.

"[Paxton hasn't] topped out," Fuente says. "When I had Andy Dalton as a junior, he was as big and strong and as good a player as he was going to be. Paxton's still a kid as a junior. He's got plenty left."

http://www.campusrush.com/memphis-tigers-paxton-lynch-1426940661.html

And a peak at their final season numbers:

SR QB 209/316--66.1--2857--9.0 YPA--27 TDs--6 INTs--166.5
JR QB 296/443--66.8--3778--8.5 YPA--28 TDs--4 INTS--157.5

Lynch, Dak Prescott, the forgotten man Trevone Boykin, the short guy Vernon Adams, Cardale Jones, Jeff Driskel.

And I'm sure you guys already do this, but you gotta take everything Mike S says with heaping dose of salt especially when it comes to Griffin.

Griffin was hurt while scrambling not on read-option. And I don't recall how Kaep wasn't inured but injuries happy for every player in the league getting down.

Really think that Griffin needs to be throwing more then running. That is what cost him in a sense, his job in DC.

Wow. What a joke. You specifically asked people to break the QBs down, and because you don't like the result from one poster, you try and discredit him.

Typical Versatile Dog. Well done.

And typical Brownie. Adds nothing to the conversation. Well done.

That's a good question. Sounds similar to tendencies, which we know they study. I really don't know the answer to that question. It makes me curious.

I don't know the answer to you second question, either. That seems less likely. We do know that a ton of QBs have improved their pre-snap reads through hours of film study.

Wouldn't it be cool if a reporter actually sat down w/a former OC or ex-QB and asked them in-depth questions about the intricacies of reading defenses?

Grantland QB development Article

I tried to see if anyone had addressed that question, and that is the best I've come up with so far.

I didn't know that Jim Mora's Playoffs!?!? rant was about Peyton Manning playing bad.

Cutcliffe says in the article that you can improve, but the QB basically has to have the make-up/discipline innately to ever get there. At least that was my quick interpretation.

Awesome article! Great find, man!

Man, there is a plethora of great information in that article once it got past the Mora part. I hope dawgs have the patience to read all the way through it, because it really does a great job of explaining some of the things we have been talking about.

Good job, Grimm!!!

I want to add this..........a lot of people might not find that article as exciting as I did, but let's say you are really interested in evaluating QBs, like many of you are w/this year's draft class......

Look for some of these key phrases as you read:

--processing information

--waiting for guy to come open

--rhythm passing

--bedlam right after the snap

--reading the square

--Bill Walsh's comments about timing

--having multiple keys

It's all good stuff and some of you might remember that I talk about some of those things when evaluating qbs. Like Wentz and processing speed.

Man, that was a really good article.

I don't see my quote and your Fuente quote as contradicting each other. There's what he'll say publicly about his QB, and there's what he'll say "off the record", if there is such a thing anymore, behind closed doors. The only difference is the slant really. Is he your guy or a guy? (your=from Fuente) Basically it's the same info but presented differently.

I don't know that those stats really tell the full story. They don't take into account Dalton's command of that offense. I'm not sure how well the defenses they faced compare either. I know that 7 of Lynch's TDs came against a team (SMU) that gave up over 700 yards to an FCS team. The Auburn game also worries me. How much of his success was doing exactly what Fuente told him, and how much was him making reads/decisions?

I'm not saying they directly contradict each other.

I posted it because the Walters (which already isn't a reliable source) is using information of dubious origin (2nd hand? third hand?)to knock Lynch as raw based on information they're expecting us to take at their word.

Maybe they're right and that's how Fuente feels. But the suggesting they're making could very well be an interpretation of Fuente's quote above and they're editorializing.

And I'm not saying the stats tell the whole story, but if the suggestion is that Lynch is more raw then Dalton its not reflected in their final season stats and over their careers Dalton played 4 season and only threw ~100 more passes then Lynch threw in 3. I tend to discount knocks against any QB that are true for most QBs. All QBs have some cupcake directional or lil sisters school on their schedules that it usually comes out even in the wash. And without a doubt Lynch has some clunker games, and again most QB prospect likewise have clunker games.

And to be clear, I think Lynch is more raw then Dalton, but for me its not a knock at all that Lynch is equally if not more productive them Dalton despite Dalton's experience advantage. I just wanted to respond to Walter's suggestion that Fuente was knocking his own QB for being raw. But, I would love to discuss Lynch in more depth. E.g. If you've watched his tape I'm sure you've seen some of the throws from the far hash to the opposite sideline that maybe only Jones has the arm talent to duplicate.

Smartfootball, grantland, brohyfootball are all great sites for advanced football info.

I figured many have already read these but here are some articles I go back to:

http://smartfootball.com/quarterbacking/...h.t3fkbuZ1.dpbs

^^Smartfootball is like gold for football info, not just that article but anything

this one is from a coach on your staff:
http://www.silverandblackpride.com/2011/6/11/2218603/al-saunders-raiders-jason-campbell

One more thought on the evaluation of college prospects in regard to reading defenses pre/post snap.

There have been prospects that are very well coached with ability to execute and function in pro-style offense in college that simple didn't translate to the NFL. Then there are QBs like Cam Newton from a true read-option offense that flourish right away. I consider pro-readiness and experience in "pro-style" offense a plus when it comes to grading QBs but its a factor that may not last past training camp. I say that to say sometimes the style of offense isn't an indication of that prospects ability, its often times just a matter of circumstance.

I get what you are saying. I too question the reliability of Walterfootball's stuff, but in this instance, it agreed with what I see on film/in interviews.

I've seen Wentz make those throws, too. Lynch does make some nice throws. I'm not sure where Lynch is on the mental side of the equation, though. He made a lot of predetermined, "easy" throws it seems to me.

The he's still a kid line directly from Fuente does point at least in the general direction of maturity questions for me. At what level, it is hard to say. I don't think Fuente was knocking him, so much as admitting he's still a work in progress.

To each there own. Seeing on the film is one thing, and imo its the only area I can judge. Knock's about a prospect off the field imho are a slippery slope that I prefer to stay away from when it comes to evaluation.

I bet that Fuente didn't intend his comments, whatever they were, to actually hurt Lynch in his bid to become an NFL QB and that's how his comments are being used. But enough off the field.

Would you like to join me in a breakdown of a couple/few Lynch games? It would be easier imo to give examples of what we are talking then doing it piecemeal like we are now. My comment earlier was about arm strength/arm talent. But, we can discuss the types of throws in that offense if you want.

I used to agree with you about the off the field stuff. Unfortunately, it seems to be the driving factor behind the Browns biggest draft failures recently. I've decided I can't ignore it any more. I'm trying to do the best I can with what I can get a hold of. Will my takes end up being accurate? Time'll tell.

My point isn't that the off the field is unimportant but rather the opposite.

But imho from our vantage point its unknowable. Assessing that stuff requires personal interaction and the best we get is 3rd/4th hand opinion/speculation about a prospects character or off the field stuff.

I'd say difficult to know rather than unknowable. With the number of interviews available, twitter/instagram access, sideline demeanor, Path to the draft/QB camp shows, you can get a feel for some players. Most colleges have media of their "star" players and you can get another glimpse there. Is it a complete picture? No, and I'm sure the teams know more, but I'm trying to factor it in.

Of all available QBs in the draft this year, I would go for Wentz. His skill set is similar to RG3's and the offensive strategy would not change much regardless who is behind center.

Good convo, I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. NFL teams with investigators and psychologists with direct access to the player get that stuff wrong all the time. So even despite the 'media' access to players in my view accurately assessing their off the field make-up from our vantage point is impossible. Would be nothing more then speculation based on speculation in my book.

Anyone who you talked to about "Johnny Football" would warn you about him from high school to college. No speculation there in my opinion. Off field make-up was pretty consistent. It is a shame because he had tremendous potential.

Who made it that way? RG3 walked into a grand situation. Everyone wanted him to succeed. You doin't trade three firsts and two seconds for a guy and hope he fails. DC LOVED him. Even after the injury they would have waited for his recovery.... Unfortunately RG3 threw EVERYONE under the bus. He never met a reporter he didn't air dirty laundry to..... RG3 was his own worst enemy. We will find out very quickly if that is still the case...... I HOPE it isn't. I HOPE the guy busts ass and learns our offense. But I will believe it when I see it. Until he does that he's still the jerk off A-hole that got run out of DC.

As far as Shanahan and Gruden being "rigid" in their offenses? Both are West Coast Offense guys. Different flavors of course but WCO is their deal. There is no more quarterback friendly offense than the WCO. Had RG3 shut up and applied himself instead of pissing and moaning when they asked him to learn it, he'd likely be a top ten QB right now instead of a back up on the Browns.

I think I am the only one to comment on this article.

Guys, it is a great read. Full of important information.

I hate saying this, but I think that the majority of our posters really don't like to learn. They just like to swing their stuff.

http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2015/10/22/reads-listens-views-10232015/

[u]Views (Opinion) – Former Denver Broncos GM Ted Sundquist’s Insights on Jay Cutler and Shanahan on Robert Griffin



Sundquist gave his detailed account of the pre-draft assessment, war room dynamics, and post-draft development of Jay Cutler at Bleacher Report yesterday. I have never asked Sundquist about the Cutler story, but I had gained a lot of second-hand information prior to Sundquist’s public telling and a lot of what he revealed jibes with what I heard. There were also things I didn’t know: Mike Shanahan originally coveting Matt Leinart and that Jake Plummer was well-liked and respected as a locker room leader.

It fills in the blanks with the story I heard: In 2005, Plummer had a Pro-Bowl season, led the Broncos to the AFC Championship game, threw two interceptions, lost the confidence of Shanahan, and the next year Shanahan and new offensive coordinator Mike Heimerdinger removed play-action rollouts and boot-action from the playbook–Plummer’s most effective play the prior year–and essentially rigged the offense just enough to have an excuse to start their rookie Cutler. Essentially, Shanahan is the type of leader who gets his way either directly or with subterfuge and manipulation and he doesn’t care how it happens. When he lost trust in Plummer, he wanted Leinart, but was alright with taking Jay Cutler after he and Sundquist agreed on Cutler as one of their alternative first-round options.

This fits with the narrative that I heard went on at the same time in Tennessee. Jeff Fisher and the scouts wanted Cutler, Titan’s new OC Norm Chow wanted his protegé Leinart, and Bud Adams wanted Vince Young. And of course, the owner, who hired people he’s supposed to trust to do their jobs, overruled them all so he could flip off everyone in his Houston stomping grounds once again. During this dysfunctional game of “Let’s set back our team 10 years,” ESPN reported during the NFL Draft that, the in the days leading to the selection process, Shanahan called his buddy Fisher and asked his opinion about Cutler. Fisher gave the thumbs up and I believe this solidified Shanahan getting on board with Sundquist and company.

Sundquist’s account spends more time on the reasons that Cutler wanted out of Denver, which begins with Josh McDaniel giving an exemplary demonstration of how not to be a leader unless the intent from the beginning is to drive a promising franchise quarterback out-of-town with the weight of one meeting. I have always been a fan of Cutler’s game. He was a gifted prospect at Vanderbilt and I liked him more than Leinart. Sundquist’s story provides context about Cutler’s development being truncated with the leadership change in Denver and the eventual trade to Chicago and it underscores much of what I’ve written about quarterback development mistakes–rush a player in the lineup before he’s equipped to develop mastery as a player and earn his role as a leader and then watch the supportive infrastructure get chipped away by impatient owners with poor skills at managing people.

Although Cutler still has potential for good years in his career despite not continuously hitting the high notes of his second season–and having more than a few low notes–Shanahan is a common factor in two quarterback stories gone wrong. Robert Griffin wasn’t developed, he was flash-fried, and that delicious smell wafted through the stands and the media lens and hypnotized most of them into thinking that Washington was preparing a feast that would last 12-15 seasons.

But as we’re learning, the NFL catches up to quarterbacks with dominating athleticism if they lack the scheme, surrounding talent, and mastery of skills from the pocket to do more than out-athlete the competition. Griffin displayed the potential to become a good pocket passer at Baylor, but Shanahan’s offense was designed to “win now,” and while it was good for him and the team for a year, it wasn’t good for Griffin’s long-term development. By year two, that delicious looking flash-fry was on the heat too long and burned to a crisp.

After Shanahan was sent packing, he went to the airwaves to relay stories about Griffin and Daniel Synder’s behavior. I found this anecdote worth discussing (The passage is blocked off and my commentary is in italics):


Shanahan told Sheehan that a report about Griffin coming to him after the season and demanding that certain plays be removed from the playbook was true, and the former coach put the blame on Redskins owner Daniel Snyder.

“It was actually two days after the Super Bowl,” Shanahan said. “He had asked to have a meeting and I really don’t blame that on Robert. I mean, Robert to me, was a young player, he had a heck of a year, he had a serious injury at that time, and it’s me that changed the perception of a person, because I know Dan [Snyder] felt very strongly about Robert being a drop-back quarterback and did not want Robert to take shots. I didn’t want him to take shots, either; all I wanted to do was run an offense that gave him a chance to be successful. I wanted him to get better at throwing the ball away, I wanted him to get better at sliding, but doing the things that I thought gave him the best chance to be successful.

Shanahan’s opening statement is a nice way of setting up Griffin as this young, immature guy that shouldn’t be blamed for his naiveté. The former coach wants to re-frame the story so he’s the innocent one and Daniel Snyder is using Griffin as a pawn to get what Synder wants. The idea that Griffin wasn’t ready to develop as a pocket passer out of Baylor is not true.

There are a lot of exposures on tape where Griffin climbed the pocket, slid from interior and edge pressure, and made throws in the face of punishment. Marcus Mariota is playing from the pocket despite the use of read option concepts and Griffin’s pocket presence at Baylor was in the same range of prowess as the Titans’ rookie.

The truth is that Shanahan has always been a system coach and he’s so enamored with how he does things that he does not like to make tweaks that he hasn’t thought of. He wants to be the beneficent dictator. When that’s threatened, he doesn’t play nice. I’ve been told that Shanahan’s career has been defined by front office politics–and it’s more than what got out publicly.

“Yeah, he did ask for a meeting. He did talk about, number one, he wanted change. He mentioned the Baltimore game and the Atlanta game, you know, his injuries. He talked about protection shortening his career. What I tried to share with him is I thought he had probably as good a protection as most rookies do have in their first year because of what he was able to do with the running game. If you compare [Griffin’s protection] to Andrew Luck, it’s not even close. He actually [mentioned] what plays were acceptable and unacceptable, and when he started talking about what plays were acceptable and unacceptable, and that he wasn’t a rookie anymore and wanted to voice his opinion, the term unacceptable is used by Dan, the owner, quite often. So [I had] a little bit of a smile when I heard some of these complaints.”

I have no doubt that Shanahan is probably correct that Griffin and Snyder had a discussion before the quarterback’s meeting with Shanahan and I understand how that can look bad to the coach. It would look bad to me. At the same time, if Shanahan really wants the public to think that Snyder was behind Griffin’s desire be developed as a pocket quarterback then he’s counting on the public not seeing Griffin at Baylor.

I thought Griffin had the physical tools, mental acumen, and feel for the game to develop into a pocket passer with game-changing athleticism. Steve Young and Aaron Rodgers are examples of players I mentioned in my pre-draft analysis that would be good models for Griffin’s tools and potential. Shanahan wanted a cog for his system, Griffin wanted a shot to develop into a great quarterback, not just a great athlete that throws the football.

Shanahan said Griffin was determined to throw more and run less, and that he didn’t want to be associated with running quarterbacks.

“He wanted to be more of a drop-back, Aaron Rodgers-type guy,” Shanahan said. “He did a few more things, and basically what I did is I went and talked to Dan, and I said, ‘Hey, Dan, for a quarterback to come to me, a veteran coach, and share these things, number one, he can’t be the sharpest guy to do something like that, or he’s got to feel very good about the owner backing him up. And since you have been telling me from Day One that he’s a drop-back quarterback and we should do more drop-back, and you guys have spent the last couple months together, I would think, or at least the last month, that this is an extension of you.’ He said it wasn’t. I just told him that the only chance that this kid, Robert, has to get to the level that we need him to get to is for him to at least trust us that we’re going to run the offense that gives him the best chance to be successful. And if not, it’s impossible, because he’s not ready for it. I can see it, that he’s not ready for that type of offense. Not that he’s not good enough, he just has never done it before.”

This is where I believe Shanahan really twists the narrative to gain sympathy. Shanahan frames the conversation with the hope of his audience believing that Griffin’s request to have input with the playbook is absolutely unheard of. He goes so far to say that Griffin isn’t very smart for even making the request. I spoke with some folks connected to the league about quarterbacks having input with scheme and what I learned fit with my intuition on the subject: It’s a mixed bag.

Some coaches are more amenable to feedback from quarterbacks and generally, it’s when the player is a veteran. System coaches like Shanahan who love the smell of their own chalk don’t like to give up control. Shanahan makes the whole thing seem unheard of, but football leadership structure is not different from other forms of teamwork.

If you have a key player in a position that is an extension of how the strategy is conceived and implemented, wouldn’t you consider his points rather than think it’s blasphemy to request input? Do you do that when one of your best young employees with great production comes into your office?

I get that Griffin, a second-year player, requesting input into the offense and his development plan is less common along the league’s landscape. But Griffin was characterized as an unusually bright leader–even by standards for top QB prospects–and he just delivered a huge year for the team.

If Griffin is the franchise player, why wouldn’t a coach buy-in to collaborating with the player’s long-term development? One potential answer is that Shanahan didn’t see Griffin as a pocket passer or value his intelligence and leadership even before Griffin requested input. It would explain the Kirk Cousin’s pick.

Another answer could be that Shanahan was so in love with the idea of the system implemented for Griffin’s rookie year that his ego couldn’t handle making a change at the request of the player who made it all go and, despite the points about throwing the ball away and taking punishment being valid, he didn’t care about making Griffin the best player that he could be as long as Griffin could do what the system required.

Whatever happened is the convergence of three personalities that didn’t play well together and the results were ugly. We’ll never really have a feel for what happened in Washington with Griffin until someone decides to do an investigative piece like a 30 for 30 film on ESPN and I’m not saying that Griffin is faultless. But there are enough signs that bad leadership and insecurity had a part in damaging the development of two excellent passing prospects–it’s not a one or the other situation.

Looks like a great article but to be honest, it's too long and looks to intense for me right around now. Perhaps in the near future - once work lightens up

It is long and that is why most won't read it. I think you will, as you like to be educated.

However, in a week or so, people will be saying the same false things about reading coverages as they always have.