DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2016 NFL Season 2016 NFL Draft OLB/3-4 DEs

Bosa transcends defensive positions like few players can. I think the fact that you don't know whether he's a DE or an OLB, even in the 3-4, makes him even MORE of an asset.

BOSA = 3-4 DE if it were up to me.

Because he wants the Browns to draft Wentz and needed to find a question mark about Bosa.

Wentz has more questions than Bosa.

Also, I think it is pretty obvious you haven't watched Bosa. The guy is unbelievable strong.

And saying Bosa is not JJ Watt is weird. Who is JJ Watt, other than JJ Watt?

LOL. It's like saying none of the QBs in this draft is Aaron Rodgers.

My bad.

I don't like Bosa as a 3-4 DE. He is strong but he won't be stout enough against the run. I would worry about him being stout enough against the run as a 4-3 DE, though he should be adequate.

What I Would do with Bosa is play him as a 3-4 OLB. Watch tape and pay attention to how he moves once he is out of his stance. He is definitely athletic enough. I look at Bosa and see James Harrison. So for comparison I googled Harrison to get his size measurements. He is listed as 6'0 275#
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6314/

Do we have the personnel to run a base 4-3? I'm actually not that averse to it. Shelton at the 1 Tech, Des Bryant at the 3, Bosa and Kruger on the ends. Is Mingo a better fit as a 4-3 OLB? I think Cooper fits the 3 tech, Hughes can play the 1. Orchard's a DE.

Even if we didn't go Bosa, I kind of want to see us run more 4-3. Myles Jack and one of the 4-3 DEs in the 2nd could be nice.

We talk about defenses being multiple across the NFL, I think we fit a 4-3 better. We just don't have the OLB's for a great 3-4.

Again, all the talk about 3-4 and 4-3 is overstated. It's not that simple. Think about the games you have watched. Think about the different sets the Browns ran last year. Were they really always in a 3-4?

I think Bosa gives you the flexibility to mix your fronts up. 3, 4, and 5 man fronts. I also think you would want to mix up your fronts to utilize his skills. You know, how other teams do w/their star players.

We were in the 3-4 a lot. And were terrible. Kruger dropping into coverage, why?

I'd prefer to be a base 4-3 and have the occasional 3-4 be the change up.

I do want to mix it up based upon the opponent and situation and talent of our players. I don't want to draft Bosa and then see Horton dropping him into coverage as a 3-4 OLB.

That's kind of what I was asking- Were we putting our players in the best positions? Were we as you say utilizing their skills?

Grimm, why do you think because they struggled using the 3-4 it gets better switch to a 4-3?

Difference running out of a base 4-3 compared to 3-4 is bigger than you perceived. It would take a lot switching. LBs, for one, need a complete overall. You will need a lot more speed on the DL than Cleveland has on the roster.

I believe the struggles last year was lack of coaching. O'Neil couldn't overcome drop in talent from the DBs when injuries piled up. He kept trying to make it work instead of adjusting. Pettine ran the defense year before and it was able to maintain.

Core issue with the defense is depth talent. Once starters drop off it caves.

I already gave you the positional fits as I see them. I don't see the lack of D-Line speed you're imagining. Where is the "speed" on the Seahawks D-Line?

You say we'd need linebackers, but don't we already need them if we stay in the 3-4?

I think the 4-3 accentuates our players strengths and minimizes their weaknesses. Kruger should not be in space. Mingo is basically already playing as a 4-3 coverage linebacker. Shelton is wasted at the 0 tech. Des Bryant is scheme versatile. Cooper is not a 3-4 end, he's a penetrator. Orchard is a DE.

Did you actually read my other post? or just the question? I feel like I already said a lot of this.

Sorry, but this is a moot conversation. We hired Horton, Horton runs a 3-4. We'll be running a 3-4.

I think the fact that we played better on D towards the end of the year when we went to more of a 4-3 just speak to how atrocious our scheme was.

Weren't you one of those guys that thought putting Taylor at DE was a stroke of genius? Your ideal DE seems to be a 320+lb. DT playing out of position. Guaranteed to never get pressure from DE.... Bruce Smith was the greatest 3-4 DE(Watt is catching him) and he's listed at 262-265. Go ahead, tell me he was too small and should have been moved to LB. A football player can PLAY. If Bosa wants it bad enough he can absolutely play DE. In this D they will probably move him around a lot anyway.

Hell, Bosa is sure to gain at least 10 pounds just being in an NFL weight training program. Maybe more. You can tell he's a gym rat. As long as he has the DESIRE to be great, barring injury he'll likely make it. He's blowing up offensive linemen now....


I'm cool either way. If they take a QB, GREAT! If they take Bosa, awesome. These guys get to see things we don't. So until they completely blow a draft I'll just have to hope they know what the hell they are doing. I don't get to interview these kids. I don't get to see how much they WANT it. If one of these QB's will be first in last out eat sleep and drink football then I'm all for taking him. We certainly have the staff to bring him along. If not and Bosa is? I'm cool with that too.... I just want us to draft a GOOD kid with NO issues that can actually PLAY and wants it BAD. That would be nice for a change. Perhaps they will take someone we aren't even considering....

Do you think Spence could fall to the 2nd round after the supposedly poor combine?

I was trying to track down more information on edge rushers and came across this site:

http://3sigmaathlete.com/rankings/

It has a listing of players' SPARQ ratings and compares them to the NFL average of players at their position as a z-score (which correlates to the percentage of players which would fall into that area or lower in the area under a normal distribution curve). SPARQ is a measure of athleticism, the accuracy of which is somewhat debatable, but it is another nugget to add to the pile.

As far as Edge rushers, I was surprised that Correa's was relatively low. Ogbah and Lawson were on top of the list, which surprised me a little bit, too. It's probably related to how size is factored in, but I just found the site this morning and haven't had a chance to dig into the methodology.

It led me to look into Calhoun more. I wish he had stood up more at Michigan State. I'll have to see if I can find his drills from the combine, I think I have them recorded somewhere.

Thanks 'steve, that saved me some time.

He seems to move pretty well, and he actually had some pretty good hands. I'm not sure when I'd take him though.

I actually ran across another OLB candidate that I might take a flier on. Curt Maggitt from Tennessee has injury issues, but when he was healthy he looked explosive with good bend. There's also some potential other "character" red flags (I'm not sure if that's really the right classification), but we could possibly get him much later than these other guys. He's also got good leadership and work ethic supposedly. I kind of like his risk vs. reward mix.

Yeah I saw those cut ups today too. I had forgotten about him. I'm kind of surprised he didn't apply for a medical redshirt. But I guess for some guys just gotta get to the league ASAP.

Anyone have thoughts on Matt Judon?

NFL.com Combine Profile

Judon vs. Findlay (only tape on draftbreakdown)

If there is any truth at all to the rumors that Maggitt punched a teammate who helped a rape victim, I wouldn't go anywhere near him in the draft or as a UDFA.

Wow. Agreed. Didn't know that had happened.

Yeah, several Tennessee players have been acussed of rape. One of the other Tennessee players helped the victim, and Maggitt punched him in the locker room over it. Obviously all rumor at this point, but thats whats been reported.

And retracted.

I don't know the truth, but it seems out of character from the rest of what I've read on him.

I think depth on the D-Line and scarcity elsewhere could cause Bosa to slide.

I've not seen anything that says it was retracted. If so, then I am behind on the times. I saw recently that they paused it for something to do with social media.

Link

Here's another story where another player on the team calls out Bowles as a liar: (accuracy I don't know, but a different angle)

Former Vols Team Captain Marlon Walls on Drae Bowles

and Here's Maggitt himself on the incident/combine/draft:
Link

The truth is probably some mixture of the various stories, but I think if Maggitt had punched Bowles there would be more evidence.

This conversation really needs to slide over into the Tailgate Forum. I click the thread to read football and instead find discussions about rape and lawsuits regarding college players.

It's a worthy discussion, just not in this Forum, in this thread.

I'm out.

One of the players caught up in the story is an OLB in this draft that was being discussed as a prospect. Unfortunately, we live in a world where these things collide.

I'll try to get things back to football.

Matt Judon? Thoughts?

i don't see any real huge talent at OLB this year. Many of the current Linebackers are to light. You would likely want someone around 250, or can get there in a year or 2. It's not the easiest thing to put on 20lbs without affecting your speed.
Smith, Jack are ilbs. Spence could be a solid 34 backer though.

Bosa if 43 only. You need ends with size and strenght to occupy 2 blockers and Bosa isnt' huge, nor is he extremely strong. Ideal 34 end weight is 290 or more. Bosa would need what 30lbs? It's not gonna happen. This year just favors the 43 ends.

However there are a few DT's that could move to end in the 34.

RE: Bosa

I see Bosa as an edge rusher. I think people get caught up in the labels 34 OLB vs 43 DE. Most NFL defenses are in nickel packages upwards of 65% of the time. For most defenses that means a 4-man DL in essence a 43. Even if Bosa couldn't play a lick of actual 34 OLB in base (which I think he can btw b/c he can set the edge against the run). He or any 34 OLB has value as a pass rusher in nickel. Heck, Aldon Smith's rookie year he only played in nickel/known passing situations.

I'm not even a fan of Bosa at pick #2, just giving my 2 cents on where/how he fits in a defense.

There are some. Vers did a good breakdown here: 1078797 - 02/15/16 08:39 AM

My fav of the group is Ogbah and he might be around at pick 32.

But I agree there aren't many true 'fastball' edge rushers in the this draft and any defense would benefit from one

Excellent point.

A couple of things. One about our division and one about how often do teams play nickel. I will provide links:

1. AFC North being black and blue or liking to pass.

--Baltimore ranked number one in passes per game in the entire NFL last year. They threw the ball 42.2 times a game.

--The Browns ranked 11th with 38.1 pass attempts per game.

--The Steelers were 15th with 36.8 attempts per game. I actually thought they were higher, but still in the top half of the league.

--The Bengals ranked 26th in the league with 32.1 attempts per game.

Here is the link: https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/pass-attempts-per-game

From the same site: This one is for rushing attempts per game.

--The Bengals were 7th with 28.9 rushing attempts per game.

--Steelers were 24th with 24.2 attempts per game.

--Ravens were 25th with 23.9 attempts per game.

--Browns were 26th with 23.8 attempts per game.

Obviously, our division is not really a black and blue division anymore. And if you look at the numbers, all four teams threw the ball more times than they ran it.

Here is another interesting angle. It addresses how often teams are in the nickle defense:



Wow! That is pretty amazing. Thus, I think ed's point about playing in the nickle was a great one. I tried to say the same thing about how teams will use Bosa in the past. I think this latest information lends credence to that belief.

Isn't playing a base set defense more about the formation the other team comes out in?

Most teams play with three wide receivers, one tight end, and a running back. That requires a nickel defense on the field.