DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... The Presidential Primaries VIII

jc

A lot of times in this thread the term free education and affordable education are used interchangeably by different posters. These are not the same thing. I am all for affordable education but oppose free education. When something is given to you freely, you don't value you it the same as when you earn it.

Think about that kid you went to college with that had to have a full time job to pay for themselves to get through college. Now think about how often they blew off class because they were hungover. I believe that college is a life experience. We all should blow off an 8 am biology class because we had too much fun the night before. But once a quarter vs once a week are very different things. College teaches us a lot of things. Yes, we learn finance or chemistry or what not and graduate with a degree. But most also learn how to live on their own for the 1st time. How to make sure that you get yourself up for your daily responsibilities and how to make sure you have clean clothes to put on in the morning. We learn to prioritize what is important to us. I value partying and watching tv over laundry. I'll just wear these clothes I wore for the past couple days. The cute girl that I sat next to got up and moved because I didn't smell very nice. Personal hygiene just became a bigger priority.

When everything is just given to you those priorities get skewed. That is one of the reasons why so many kids from wealthy families end up so screwed up so much of the time.

Having said all that, what is my solution? Here is the basic idea. Don't pick it apart too much because as we know, the devil is in the details and I am not wasting too much time on this as no one who could do anything about this would listen to me.


1, make getting a student loan easier. I don't believe education is a right. I believe it is a choice. I do however believe that access to education should be a right for US citizens. Any person who wants to get a college education should have the opportunity. Refusal of banks to provide a loan should not be an acceptable reason as to why someone doesn't go to college.

2, Put a max on the interest rate. Financial institutions are taking a risk by loaning out money that may never get repaid. They deserve to be compensated, BUT at a reasonable rate of return. When I was in college, you worked your butt off to get the loan that was at 7% because if you didn't qualify you had to get the 10-12% loans.

3, The loans will not start accruing interest while the borrower maintains status as a full time student. Of course there will need to be some safeguards to make sure people don't go all Van Wilder and try to remain full time student the rest of their lives.

If instituted these points will ensure everyone has access to an affordable college education and the burden is not placed on the American people. There is no burden. Students get a product they want at a reasonable price and the difference is that financial institutions that make $10 billion a year will only make $8 billion (my completely inaccurate estimate).

I've always wondered why more cash-strapped students don't use the community colleges to fulfill their "core requirements", ie; their freshman and sophomore years, and then transfer the credits to a 4 year university. They would save a boatload of money if they did. Also, if finances are an issue, there's no shame in commuting to classes rather than living on campus. The room and board fees are quite exorbitant at most universities.

Spot on Dave. I helped an ex-girlfriend with her tuition at a local community college (Virgina Western) - she was going part time for graphic design and typically took 2 classes per semester. It was like a thousand dollars, so a full class load would be around 2k I'm guessing, plus books/supplies. That is far from expensive for college, plus there are grants, loans, etc available.

I also agree with Jester that a college education is not a right, but it does need to be more affordable and allow for anyone that wants to go to have access. My son will be lucky as I've saved at least 3-5k per year since he was born in a 529 account which will probably give him around 130k depending upon market conditions when (and if) he starts college. I have the same concern you mention that he will lack the motivation if it is given to him without understanding the amount of work I have put in to give him a debt-free education. One of the motivating factors I am using for my son is that if he gets scholarships and doesn't use all of the 529 money it is his upon graduation (of course it will have the crap taxed out of it which will be a great learning experience for him about the real world).

Also don't come sobbing to me when you have 100k in debt because you majored in poetry or some other useless degree at a private liberal arts college that costs 30k per year and can't find a job. That drives me nuts.

Thus, why Obama wanting comm college to be free is such a good thing! It has become a reality here in Oregon (this year), which is great.

Jester (above), I agree with you...I never said college should be free. That's impossible...not sure how that could be realistically accomplished. Community College being free is very different than a 4 yr college. At cc you get certificates or, at best, an Associates. It's almost like an extension of high school as it is only 1-2 years. A 4 yr college that is affordable would have a tuition cap. What that cap is...who knows. 10k p/yr? 15k? Less? But, I definitely think 30k p/year for a "in state" university immediately makes it a pipe dream for far too many students. Especially if you don't want to study medicine, engineering, law etc. What if, lets say, you want to be a teacher? 120k in tuition for your bachelors + add on top of that another 60k for your Masters....that's a whole lot of debt for somebody who has a salary cap far below 6 figures.

And religion!

Remember..."separation of church and state". The evangelicals seem to have forgotten that one.

So true - I was one of those kids who went to college and floundered about, trying to find something to latch onto. I started out as an Accounting major (Dad's idea), moved from there to Education, then Psychology, History, English, Sociology, and so on. When I graduated I had enough credits to claim a major in in Psych / History and a minor in English / Soc. I was someone you'd want on your Trivial Pursuit team, but I wasn't qualified to do anything in particular. So after looking for something in the job market for 6 months, I took a job as a warehouseman / truckdriver. I was getting married and I needed an income. They say life is what happens while you're planning your future ...

Anyhoo, long story short, if I were in the position of offering advice to 17-18 year olds planning on college it would be "Have an idea why you're going.". Its not 13th through 16th grade - it needs to prepare you to do something to make a living. If you're lucky, you'll love it. If you don't love it ... well, you still need to make a living.

Excellent advice - find your passion and you'll never work a day in your life. I was lucky enough to do so - if I hadn't found computers I would have been a part of your trivial pursuit dream team I think. I hated school but loved programming - graduated college with a 2.8 with a 4.0 in my major. I have a very difficult time focusing on things that I do not like.

I took my first programming course at a JuCo. It was so new it was "individually paced", no instructor. You just signed up for an hour at a time on one of their two 8K Apples then took your test at the testing center.

What country ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure.

-Thomas Jefferson

I went to HS in the early 70's, when the computer age was dawning. Some corporation - I think it was IBM - sponsored a pilot program in Cleveland city schools to teach programming to qualified students, and I was one of the three kids at my HS that tested high enough to qualify for the special training. That was when a mainframe computer was the size of your kitchen, and they taught languages called FORTRAN (I think) and COBOL. When I told my parents I was one of only a relative few in the city who would be in the program my Dad said "No, you're going to college to be a CPA.". Dad worked his ass off his whole life and was very practical, but not exactly visionary. Hell, who knew back then what was about to happen in our culture? I didn't go into the program, but I've wondered over the years what might have happened.

You would probably have moved to Dallas and worked your way up at Texas Instruments, got involved in the stock options and retired at 45. Then went on to found State Fair Bologna Cups!

Free this free that he knows he cant deliver,he just figured how to prey upon the low middle to low income dems for 10s of millions of dollar hes a lying snake oil salesman is all and he even has you arguing for him LOL

The only major advantage a 4 year college over a community college is networking and marketing. A 4 year college opens a MUCH wider networking net and opportunity. Now I know there will be like 3 or 4 of you that will respond with some rebuttal about a different experience. However, I'll just counter with this: It's simple math. Where are you more likely to meet people at Ohio State or a Community College? You're more likely to meet people from your major becaus the differences in classroom size. That's not even including possibly living with people.

If you've already made connections and know the right people, go to Community College. If you're not even from the area you're going to school, then yes. Go to a 4 year school.

J\C Heres an idea on for affordable education ask the education unions to take a massive paycut you know for the sake of the poor kids and our country. Oh yeah I forgot they own the Dem party sorry BERNIE ET;AL

So, your answer to "affordable education" is for teachers to take a "massive pay cut"? Firstly, that doesn't make sense because K-12 is already "free". Unless, of course, you are arguing you shouldn't have to pay taxes to educate kids, which is truly frightening concept.

Secondly, we were talking higher/further education. University & college.

Thirdly, teaching even at K-12 is a career that requires a Masters degree and has a salary cap. So, you are expecting the teacher to go to college for 5-6 years, come out of school with huge amounts of debt and get paid even less than they already are?

This makes no sense whatsoever and is more about a personal gripe you have rather than a constructive argument.

Since we are dealing with college expense, my kids are 30, 28 & 25 so I am not too far removed from the college parent experience and expense.

My kids visited a number of schools their JR & Sr years. OSU, Dayton, Toledo, Kent State, BG, Wright State. OU, Miami, Ball State and probably a few others I am forgetting.

One common thing I remember among almost all of these was the recent, current or proposed construction of multi million dollar activity centers. This seemed like an incredible extravagance to me. Most of these would have anywhere from 30-75 treadmills, elliptical machines etc. and some even had what were essentially low scale water parks. It was like a palace for fun. I can't imagine the rise in fees was not necessary to cover the cost of the construction.

Usually while we were visiting only almost none of them were being used. I realize visiting during the day was a time they might be less likely to get used.

Also I think kids in college today don't do "without". Yes I paint with a broad brush and I don't mean everyone but when my wife & I were in college our dates rarely were expensive. WE just did not have the money and Mom & dada were certainly not going to send checks for more spending money. We went to $1 matinee movies, and never went to casual dining places. It was usually fast food from the value menu or coupons.

They live like they have full time jobs and when they graduate the large student loans come due.

I went the CC route also and I also don't know why more don't.

quote by Riley above:

"...ask the education unions to take a massive paycut"

Not me.

Teachers in Connecticut make unbelievable wages. I have a buddy who just retired from teaching 6th grade. His salary was $60,000+. Plus great retirement and medical benefits. And let's not forget the 2 months vacation every summer. Or the week vacation every spring and fall. Or the great hours everyday and great holidays and the "Tenure".

Reduce their pay? It would be easier convincing a catholic bishop there's no god.

"What about the children?"

This is a really good, fair point and I cannot argue against it. I completely agree that it is a complete waste of $$ that could be much better spent. High Schools too spend hundreds of thousands/millions on athletic grounds and stadiums.

But, I think this may have something to do more with the mentality of American society. Don't you? I mean, lets look at sports for a minute...a perfectly fine, serviceable stadium has to be replaced simply to "keep up with the Jones' " (both figuratively and literally!). Why do we tear something down or, worse...move the team if the city doesn't tax its population to have the most up to date stadium, that in 10-15 years will be out of date again? The colleges & universities spending all this money for these luxuries must be doing it as a way to keep up with/compete with the private schools or the more financially endowed state schools.

90 year old buildings are torn down simply because they are "old" and deemed more expensive to maintain than to start over. Throw away society. Yet, in Europe they have buildings, colleges/universities, houses that are all hundreds of years old. I have stood in a church built in 1000AD but had its origins as early as 600AD and K-12 schools that date to the 16th century or older.

"Yet, in Europe they have buildings, colleges/universities, houses that are all hundreds of years old. I have stood in a church built in 1000AD but had its origins as early as 600AD and K-12 schools that date to the 16th century or older."

I had a beer at a bar in Brugge, Belgium that's been serving since 1515.

Yep, there is a pub in St. Albans, England where you can have a beer in the area they once used for cock/rooster fighting back in the 15th or 16th century. The US wasn't even a country then.

More recent history...there is also a pub in Cambridge, England where the WW2 American troops used their zippos to burn their name/rank/regiment etc. on to the ceiling when the lights would all go out during the blitz. A wonderful part of history that isn't that old in comparison to what is around but, the pub itself has been there for centuries.

Just did the tours myself. My son will be going to BG next fall. That activity center was just as you described and out of this world. It's going to be upwards of 80k for the 4 yrs living on campus. We're going to do our best so he can graduate debt free, but if he wants extra spending money, it ain't coming from us.

Agreed.

BUT - american universities are, first and foremost, businesses. The customers are students.

To attract students, you need the luxury sports complexes, pools, fancy dorms - (do they even call them dorms anymore?), 20 different food places as opposed to a freaking cafeteria.

And, in order to attract even MORE "customers", colleges and universities expand their "degree" programs. Too many of which offer no career after college.

But, the college/university got the customers money.

Why Bernie sanders has to raise taxes on the middle class.

https://fee.org/articles/why-bernie-sanders-has-to-raise-taxes-on-the-middle-class/

If colleges are businesses they should be taxed like them.

Perhaps.

But you can't argue that colleges AREN'T business.

Well, as you're reading Eve...here's a good one for ya!

http://www.politicususa.com/2016/01/14/1...rein-greed.html

I don't personally care about wall street, I care about taxes being jacked up for everyone including the middle class and the poor.

The way we're going. we are soon going to be the proud owners of a 2 class system.

The top is ever growing, the middle class has stagnated, and the unskilled work force is demanding higher and higher wages, and no one cares that it is the middle that is being squeezed into extinction.

No worries, Trump got this!

Bernie wins Wyoming today!

He gets 7 delegates since he is the big winner!

Hillary, the big loser only received 7 delegates.

Yes, those numbers are correct.

it's funny, but not rigged.

i don't understand why some states can split their delegates, and then others are winner takes all.

the system needs to be the same across the board.

But how can you tell the people who it is they want if you don't control the outcome?

What's funny is Eve had me over for dinner tonight and she made some delicious Enchiladas. She piled them high on my plate and asked me if I would say Grace, which I was only happy to do.

After 7 or 8 minutes of Praying, she said if you don't say Amen soon, your food will get cold. So I said Amen and climbed down off the table to eat.

She told me to hold on for a second as she took my plate and scraped 67 percent of it into the garbage!

I said, "What the Heck???"

She just smiled and said, "Now you completely understand Bernie's tax plan."

oh so she showed you how the religious people screw over the population?

how nice of her. also, 67 percent is oddly specific.

LOL That was great!

She posted this earlier...

https://fee.org/articles/why-bernie-sanders-has-to-raise-taxes-on-the-middle-class/

Read and weep!

i read it.

it also seems like everybody's tax rate from bernie's plan is different.

so i dunno what's going on. the tax rates we was talking about last month seem to be different than this tax rates chart.

maybe we should start with the actual numbers first, seeing as depending on what media source you get the info, the numbers are different.

also, you already know i don't like his tax plans, i dunno why i should weep over your post.

The "religious" screw over the population?

See, here is where you prove you don't get it.

i see the sarcastic joke went flying over your head again.

pointless poster is pointless.

If you would like a breakdown of the numbers, here it is.

http://www.vox.com/2016/1/22/10814798/bernie-sanders-tax-rates

I can't see how any rich person or corporation will want to live in this country. Say goodbye to corporate America as they will leave. And I don't blame them one bit. All those white collar jobs you went to college for will be gone.