DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum RGIII Cont'd

Both Goff and Wentz are Pocket Throwers. Both have excellent footwork, pocket presence and mechanics. Both are cerebral QB's. Both have proven to love to live football. Both are squeeky clean kids. That's huge after the Johnny Wannabe fiasco. We'd finally have a face of the franchise going forward for Huey's reign.

I like everything about Wentz. And he's athletic to boot. I like everything about Goff but he needs to put on 10-20 pounds. I think both of these guys will be starting by mid season regardless where they end up. I don't think Goff gets enuff credit for his athleticism either. Both these guys can move the chains with their feet and escapability.

As Vers said, and this is a no brainer for anyone who tries to evaluate any QB coming into the NFL. It's ALWAYS the missing link. How well are they going to be able to make not only Post snap reads but Pre snap as well. You never know until they get into the line of fire and adjust to the speed of the game. Being a film junkie helps. First IN last OUT. Both these guys seem to have that mentality.

These guys are not in the Gino Smith, Ponder, Gabbert mold.

To further the question of WHY we signed RGIII and then want to draft a Pocket Passer. I say Jackson is going to TRY to make Griffin a Pocket Passer. Hence the short 2 year deal. Read Option is not part of Huey's playbook. Thank God. He's gonna TRY. Good luck with that Huey.

You don't have to run a read option offense to have a specific set of plays that would take advantage of RGIII's athletic ability to run...and yes, I believe Carson Wentz could also utilize a set of plays similar, in certain situations. He isn't a run threat like Griffin, but he can run.

Thing is, Wentz and Griffin both have that live arm that coaches look for in their QB. With Griff, it is more question similar to Wentz, can he learn to read defenses? Wentz has the IQ, it would seem, but does it translate to the NFL complicated defensive reads? Griffin has already had trouble in this area, so it becomes his willingness to sit in a room for hours on end learning his craft. He only has a team friendly 2 year contract to make his case.

Goff on the other hand, has all "good" traits. He does everything well, but doesn't excel in any one aspect. I think he has more of a chance to be ordinary than the other two. However, he is also the safest bet of the three. He is an Andy Dalton(whom the Bengals got in the 2nd round, not #2 overall). He too has the what seems to be a football IQ, so I would not be surprised to see the Browns take one of these two at #2. Putting all your eggs in the RGIII basket is career suicide when picking this high in the draft. He may be just good enough these next two years to not sniff the playoffs, but keep you out of the top 10 in draft picks, essentially ruining another opportunity to draft a proper QB prospect.

{edit} Full disclosure, I am not a fan of drafting either QB at #2. I believe there are better players at the top of the draft than either QB. Both of these kids have question marks big enough to avoid them in this draft.

I look at Griffin as basically equivalent to a rookie in terms of chance of making it. However, I think any QB without weapons will fail. If we take another QB early, that will mean fewer weapons that we can get for whomever. Could Griffin bust? Absolutely, but he's not costing us the #2 pick.

As great a coach as Shanahan has been, I don't think his history with QBs is that great. His teams have largely relied on monster running games. Unfortunately, its hard to keep up point wise now that the passing game is so prevalent/dominant. Still Griffin had his best year with Shanahan and a creative scheme to utilize his talents. However, RG3 did get hurt and the scheme wasn't really set up to adjust for that. With Gruden, the injuries set Griffin back and Cousins is a better fit.

If Griffin can learn to protect himself better like Russell Wilson, I think one can still use his athleticism as an asset. I think Hue has proven adaptable and can adjust his scheme to maximize his players. RG3 has unique talent and can be successful. I think getting him more reps (AKA not splitting them with a rookie) improves his probability of success.

If we thought Goff and Wentz were sure things, I don't think we would have signed RG3. This could end up looking a lot like the 2013 draft with Goff=Geno Smith and Wentz=EJ Manuel. I'm not saying that's the case, but I do see how it could end up that way.

I am just going to say two things about RG III. If we can't run the ball he is toast. If we can't simplify the reads he will suck. Your move Hue.

Exactly. All the more reason not to gamble away our #2 pick by doing something other than just taking the best QB avail.

I don't see it that way at all. RG3 is no more a sure thing than either of those two guys. I think RG3 was a case where Hue saw value in a guy he thought he could resurect

EJ Manuel didn't impress me at all in college. I watched him over and over trying to get a good feeling about him. I never did.

And Geno, he's got character and work ethic concerns that these other two don't have. I thought he'd be a better player than he is, but I certainly never considered him a very high prospect.


I feel much better about Goff and Wentz than those two. Especially with your comparison of Wentz to EJ Manuel.

Just because they are the best available QB doesn't mean you should take them at #2.

Which is why I think we drop a few spots and take Elliot, we already have Duke as a third down guy, all we need is for Elliot to be the pound guy.

I take it you aren't a fan of Crowell?

I like the Crow, but I don't think he's an every down back, for some reason we never seem to use him that way, he'll run a few plays and then come out for a few and then if we get within the 20 yd. line they send him back in for a play or two. Unless it's just me, I don't think anyone ever used him as a every down player, I know he waves his hand alot after a couple of carries, so maybe he can't take the constant hits?

Thank you.

Thanks for the reply Kwhip ... gonna be interesting to see how this plays out ... I'm getting CONFLICTING INFO and I hate when that happens ... *L* ....



Everything I've read about Hue is that he gets the most out of his talent ..... trying to turn RG3 into a pocket passer goes against everything he's done in his past ... he puts people in a position to succeed ... and RG3 has about as much chance of being even an average pocket passer as I do of becoming president this cycle ... or any cycle for that matter ... *L* ...

U may be right ... but if that's the plan .. ITS A DUMB ASS PLAN!!!!!

it makes no sense to me to bring RG3 in and not put him in a position to succeed ... and it makes no sense to bring in either one of the rooks and have them run an O that they will not be running in a year ...

I'll be very curious to see what our O looks like if we now take a QB at #2 ... if we take a QB at #2 I don't see how I can be a happy camper in Oct/Nov cause what were doing on O will more than likely NOT MAKE A LICK OF SENSE TO ME ...

will be interesting to watch this play out ... my guess is I will be once again scratchin my noggin wondering what were thinking ...

I like him also. Maybe it was Pettines way of handling things that made it appear he couldn't be an every down back. Not sure!

Doesn't Hue have a history of using his back a LOT.

Hey, maybe Zeke will be the guy we take.

Well yes, it does for the Brown's

If we had a clear cut franchise QB I may agree. But we don't.

We just can't hope these QB's drop to the 2nd rd and we can't really afford to move up from 32 to get a NFL ready QB.

This would be my optimal trade down scenario.

Doesn't mean it's what I want to do. But I like Elliot a lot. And I'm from CT, some i'm not really an OSU fan. I am a Big10 fan, but not an OSU homer at all.


IMO, Elliot is a blue chip talent. Every down back who is high level, starting RB material. Doesn't mean he'll be Adrian Peterson (who is), but I do think he can be one of the better starting RBs in the NFL.

Of course, I felt that way about Trent Richardson, and I thought Darren McFadden would be a star..... So my record on top-notch RBs isn't that good.

Seems like your taking quite a few assumptions as fact here.

The Browns have the 2nd pick in the draft. If they thought Wentz or Goff were worthy of the #2 selection they have their choice of either one. And if they plan on drafting a QB w/ the #2 selection then why even bother with going after Griffin?

No one knows what the Browns intents are in regards to drafting Wentz/Goff or a drafting a "pocket passer/thrower" or making Griffin into one. (whatever that ambiguous term means)Saying that read-option isn't part of Hue's offense is factually incorrect since Dalton used read-option with Dalton in Cinci. Also, using read-option doesn't preclude one from being "pure pocket passer". They are not mutually exclusive. North Dakota state used Wentz as part of their run game both through designed QB(only) runs and through read-option but you still consider him a "pocket thrower/passer" right?

Because our current back up QB will be 38 years old this year. So you get a younger back up on a two year back up QB deal.

Boy you hit it right on the head here Diam.

Maybe Lynch is the target?

Crow has a nose for the end zone, but other than that he's quite ordinary IMO. Doesnt catch the ball, doesn't seem to have vision, isn't quick or very powerful.

IMO the main reason the FO picked up RGIII was for backup and depth at QB. Any FO or anyone for that matter that suggests that RGIII is going to be the starter at this point, is being delusional. He's earning backup pay and he'll probably be just that, a backup. We need the best QB we can possibly grab out of this draft.

I think there is/was so much drama clouding Griffin's perception that his talent and accomplishments rarely enter the discussion about him.

If we erased Griffin's NFL career and went back to him as a college prospect how many people would rate Goff or Wentz higher then him?

Or for that matter going back to last year how many would rate Goff, Wentz on par with Winston and Mariota?

QBs always get pushed up the draft board due to desperation and this class seems to me a perfect example. I don't think any QB in this class is truly a top 10 prospect. But I digress.

Here is what we know about Griffin, Goff and Wentz. One of these QB has actually reached great heights in the NFL already:
And that 2012 Redskins team wasn't loaded with talent either yet they finished as the #3 offense in the NFL. Its a legit argument that outside of WR this Browns team is better then the team Griffin lead to the playoffs.

Tangent....its ironic to me that neither of Griffin's injuries were from read-option. The fact of the matter it that in the NFL everyone gets hurt. Everyone. But it a QB in read-option offense gets hurt the offense is blamed. Yet, QBs in 'traditional' offenses are hurt all the time, yet no one says those offenses are too dangerous...end tangent.

In 2013 Griffin had an average year based on his record setting rookie year. But, even in 2013 the offense was by far the best unit on the team. But, bad franchises have drama and that is what ensued in the last 3 games of the season when Mike Shanahan benched Griffin.

Just a point of record: Griffin's 2013 stats:
60.1 comp %
3,203
7.0 ypa
16 TDs
12 INTs
38 sacks
82.2 passer rating
86 rush attempts
489 rush yards

In 2014 Griffin did struggles in his transition to Gruden's offense that didn't include any read-option. Griffin was benched after 5 games. He started week 1, was injured in week 2, returned in week 9 then had a bye week then played weeks 11, 12 then was benched.

During that stretch he was:
67.8 comp %
8.2 ypa
869 yards
2 TDs
3 INTs
20 sacks
88.6 passer rating


Agreed. 100%. Griffin is still very much a work in progress. But, the for me the talent, work ethic and confidence point towards success more then failure.

There are several ways to produce an effective offense.
There are several different but sound concepts...Coryell, (walsh) WCO, (Holmgren) WCO, (Shanahan/Kubiac) WCO, Erhardt-Perkins, Multiple, quick passing Coryell, Spread, Spread-option, Panthers multiple read-option, etc. I think Griffin could be successful in several different styles of offense. Provided the offensive coordinator and playcaller is in sync with Griffin and imho that only happened during Griffin's rookie season.

All the quotes were getting convoluted so I'll refer back to the previous post rather than quadruple quote.

Re: Quote 1.

I agree with you on RG3 being more talented when he came out. However, I'm not sure where his psyche/body is at now, so I'm hedging my bets a bit. I do like Wentz the best this year (of the QBs), but I'm not sure where I'd stack him historically. I really love his intangibles (my take on), but I'm coming to a realization that I could be over weighting them. I am starting to think trading down and getting more offensive weapons for RG3 could be the best route. Especially with the Gordon situation dragging out.

Re: Scheme Quote

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not blaming the scheme for the injury. I'm saying once he was injured he couldn't really run the scheme he'd been successful with. (I'm picturing basically one-legged Griffin limping toward the playoffs) I think he can be successful in a system similar to that early Redskin's scheme if he can incorporate protecting himself like Wilson and stay healthy. I like the thought of backside delayed screens to Duke to counter teams loading up against half field reads.

If we have expectations that our passing offense will look different it stands to reason that our running game will be different too. I think Johnson and Crowell can be productive in the right scheme. I'm not opposed to looking at another back if he can be a play maker. I don't want to spend a first round pick on one when there are multiple areas of the roster that need attention.

A runner like Keith Marshal, almost 220 Lbs. 4.3 speed, can run inside or out. Displayed some pass catching ability in limited opportunities. Projected as a 4-5 fifth round pick. That's the kind of value that makes sense for Cleveland.

Well, that de-escalated quickly.

after signing RG3 he'd be the logical choice if u want continuity for the youngin ....

who knows what the plan is ... all I know is the more I learn the WORSE I feel .. (how was that lamp .. *L*) ... and its not like I've felt good about this moneyball crap to start with ... ..

Jackson: Browns' O won't be tailored to RGIII's skills

New coach Hue Jackson punted Wednesday when asked if the Cleveland Browns feel obligated to build their offensive system around Griffin's running ability

"You don't have to do anything," Jackson said. "I think what you have to do is let the young man play. We're going to build our quarterbacks from the ground up. We'll create an environment for them."

Asked whether the presence of Griffin will influence the Browns' plans for the No. 2 overall pick in upcoming draft, Jackson replied, "I don't think that has anything to do with the draft."

Jackson emphasized that his offense "isn't just about Robert." It will be flexible enough to fit not just any quarterback, but also any running back or wide receiver.

Having developed quarterbacks with disparate skill sets such as Joe Flacco, Jason Campbell, Andy Dalton and AJ McCarron, Jackson acknowledged that he likes to "collect arms."

To that end, he seems to be in no rush to cut ties with his veteran incumbent at the position.

"Josh McCown is a tremendous football player," Jackson said. "I'm excited to work with him. I'm not concerned about what's going to happen in the future, and neither is Josh."

Griffin stressed Wednesday that he's excited about the opportunity to "compete and grow" after losing his starting job to Kirk Cousins last season.

The Browns will provide that opportunity in spring practices and training camp, but Griffin will have to outplay his competition before the offensive system is tailored to his skill set.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...o-rgiiis-skills

I think that about sums it up...

Put it in context. He was talking about Josh McCown's future. He's saying he's not concerned with what's going to happen with McCown and that he's going to work with him as if he's going to be on the team.

That was my take as well...

I love how "they" slap titles on articles that directly contradict the material in them.

Look at the last sentence of the article:



So if he outplays the competition they will tailor the offensive system to his skill set, right?

That sounds like Browns' O won't be tailored to me. smh.

Flashy headlines get clicks. It's still a business.

Jackson emphasized that his offense "isn't just about Robert." It will be flexible enough to fit not just any quarterback, but also any running back or wide receiver.

imo this is the important part to take away from that article.

Typically, the reporter[s] don't write the headline. That's another person's job. I always thought that was weird.

I wouldn't dwell on the title of the article...but what Hue said...not what the writer is assuming...the writer said out play to tailor the O for him Hue said no such thing

So why not say "Browns O could be tailored to RGIII's skills"?

Similar impact, but it actually echoes the info in the article.

can't argue that and I agree the title is a misleading

Because it doesn't get clicks. This breaks every rule of internetting.

Or newspaper articles.

I almost posted an article about LeBron in the Cavs thread the other day.

The headline screamed: LeBron on loss to Bulls: Dellavedova Should've Passed to Me on Late Shot. I read the article and LeBron actually says something like, I wish I had the ball at the end of the game.

I didn't even bother posting it. Too misleading.

My reading comprehension was off and wanted to delete the post but couldn't.

But here's this