DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Hue Jackson

Also, I believe Hue was hired before DePo. Possibly before Sashi's role was fully fleshed out, but I don't remember that for sure.

Why put off til tomorrow what u can do today .... *L* ..

I don't know if Hue was actually sold the structure he will be working with. I'm not sure how it was presented to him or if what was presented to him was accurate. I know as a fan base we have been misled many times by statements made. I mean does anything they're doing now look or resemble how the Steelers do it?

And that's what we were told. I'm not saying Hue was sold a bill of goods, but that possibility certainly exists.

Dang! I might not live that long bone'...j/k

I think Hue might have arrived with a koolaid IV installed. Sounds good all over the media and all, but I hope this cockeyed setup can pan some gold. Jawboning has not and won't get it done this time either. Like to shock some people this year (positively!), but can't for the life of me deduce where it might come from. Baby Huey better have a couple dozen rabbits in his hat.

JC

Just a writer assuming that analytics will be he only piece of the decision making puzzle.

When all parties involved have repeatedly said it will be part of but not the end all / be all of that process.

I don't think so. I remember Hue talking about meeting everyone and calling out for Paul, like Paul wasn't getting the credit that Sashi, Dee, and Jimmy got. And then he said "I think Paul's on his way back to California"


But I remember him saying Paul was one of the guys interviewing him, or at least involved in the interview process

The Browns announced the hiring of DePodesta on January 6th.

Hue Jackson was introduced as HC on Jan. 13th.

Hue was hired one week after DePodesta.

its nice to know the ENTIRE DECISION won't be based off of analytics ... just wondering texas ... or anyone ...

WHAT % OF THE PROCESS WILL IT BE .... 5% or 75% ...

based off letting Schwartz and Gibson walk when were 40 mill (if the numbers mac posted are accurate) under the salary cap I'm going with its a WAY BIGGER % OF THE EQUATION THEN IT SHOULD BE ,,,,

seriously ... why did we hire this dude if it is not going to be a SIGNIFICANT PART OF THE DECISION MAKING PROCESS??? ...

did we just hire a guy and pay him a nice chunk of change just to put another 5% variable into the talent end of our decision making process??? .. I think not ... and after letting the two youngins go ... I'M REALLY THINKING NOT!!!!

NFL SCOUTING REPORT

Name: Paul DePodesta
Age: 43
Height/weight: 5-foot-9, 165 pounds
Hometown: Alexandria, Virginia
College: Harvard, 1995 (economics, cum laude)
Previous position: VP of player development and amateur scouting, New York Mets
Football experience: 1992-94 Harvard, wide receiver; 1995 Baltimore Stallions of the Canadian Football League, unpaid intern, duties included operating T-shirt cannon
Bench: 225 lbs. @ < 0 reps
Evaluated by: More than a dozen analytics experts from across the sports landscape

OVERVIEW

BROWNS' NEW CHIEF strategy officer is most intriguing NFL prospect of the last decade. Bob Bowman, MLB president of business and media, called DePodesta hire "most interesting sports story of 2016." Elite-level thinker spent 20 years as leading mind behind sabermetrics revolution in baseball made famous by best-selling book and movie Moneyball, based on his then-radical approach with Oakland Athletics. In January, with zero football experience, hired by Cleveland to oversee progressive, analytics-first overhaul of its front office, roster, culture. Will face major obstacles while attempting to challenge decades-old NFL scouting, drafting, team-building and performance models. At stake: fate of franchise, future of analytics in football and DePodesta's legacy. "Paul had a big impact on the way the entire baseball industry operated," states Ben Baumer, a statistical analyst with Mets from 2004 to 2012. "This is a chance for Paul to do it all over again in a different sport. We all want to know: Is it all going to translate, can Paul get lightning to strike twice?"

FEEDBACK FROM FIELD

"BRILLIANT BUT NOT condescending." ... "Reticent but not socially aloof." ... "Smarter than advertised." ... "Process-oriented to the end, not swayed by wins, losses or emotions." ... "Focused on getting it right as opposed to getting credit -- which is why he can't survive most front offices." ... "Not a great communicator." ... "I thought he was a genius until he agreed to work for the Browns."

VISION

BASIS OF WHAT DePodesta and Browns are attempting not new. Majority of NFL teams begrudgingly use analytics without fully embracing concept. Besides scouting and drafting, teams employ analytics to weigh trades, allot practice time, call plays (example: evolving mindset regarding fourth downs) and manage clock. What will differentiate DePodesta and Cleveland is extent to which Browns use data science to influence decision-making. DePodesta would like decisions to be informed by 60 percent data, 40 percent scouting. Present-day NFL is more 70 percent scouting and 30 percent data. DePodesta won't just ponder scouts' performance but question their very existence. Will likewise flip burden of proof on all football processes, models and systems. Objective data regarding, say, a player's size and his performance metrics -- example: Defensive ends must have arm length of at least 33&#8719; inches -- will dictate decision-making. Football staff will then have to produce overwhelming subjective argument to overrule or disprove analytics. "It's usually the other way around," states member of AFC team's analytics staff. "I'm jealous, to be honest. I was hoping we'd be the first to do this, but the Browns are beating everyone to the punch. Only question is how much of a tie-yourself-to-the-mast mentality will they have, and for how long?"

RED FLAGS

SECURING FUTURE OF analytics in football will require massive amounts of talent, patience and intellectual ingenuity from franchise notoriously devoid of all three. At MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference in March, unilateral fear existed inside analytics community that systemic ineptitude of Browns franchise will be too substantial for even DePodesta to repair. Failure would damage legacy of beloved industry pioneer and set field of sports data science back decades. "If you love analytics and want it to grow and succeed in the NFL, then you know Cleveland is a nightmare scenario," states NFL executive with 20 years of experience in analytics. "Cleveland is a crazy, terrible place for this to be tested in football."

BACKGROUND (COLLEGE)

RECRUITED TO HARVARD in 1991 as shortstop, center fielder, pitcher. Played baseball for Crimson, one year. Injury to throwing shoulder forced him to quit baseball and switch to football, first love since fifth grade, according to associates. "Always been a football guy, deep down," confirms longtime Harvard coach Tim Murphy. Majored in economics with emphasis in psychology. Was once concerned about being labeled "dumb jock" at Harvard. To combat that image, wore button-down shirts, khakis and glasses (instead of contacts) in classroom. Worry about image unfounded. Despite running precise pass routes that former Harvard teammates state could have been measured with protractor, DePodesta failed to record single receiving stat in entirety of Crimson football career. "I got into baseball, and everyone just started calling me a geek, like, 'There's the nerd from Harvard,'" DePodesta stated at Sloan. "Then it took 20 years of working in baseball and me actually leaving and going to football for people to say, 'He's the baseball guy.' So maybe at some point I'll be known as a football guy too."

BACKGROUND (MLB)

AFTER CFL INTERNSHIP, started front office career with Indians in 1996; by the next year was advance scout. Using data, began to question game's processes and implicit assumptions about everything, especially inherent, yet undetected, flaws in decision-making. (Example: Scouts give excessive weight to a player's most recent performance in predicting future performance.) November 1998, age 25, hired away from Indians by Oakland GM Billy Beane. Despite minuscule payroll, analytic approach lifted A's to four straight playoffs (but no championships) while inspiring Moneyball book and movie. Played by Jonah Hill in movie. Beyond obvious physical differences, character seemed to be accurate portrayal: contrarian, painfully awkward at times, process-oriented and unswayed by emotion or outcome on field. "Paul's the Christopher Columbus of analytics," states Astros director of decision sciences Sig Mej­dal. "Others may have come and gone before him. But it was his arrival that led to a permanent industry change."

BACKGROUND (CONTINUED)

FEBRUARY 2004, NAMED GM of Los Angeles Dodgers. After initial success, struggled with role as public face of club, communication with media and human element. Interpersonal skills exposed as notch or two below elite. Derided as "Google Boy" by Los Angeles Times. 2005 season: 71 -- 91. October same year: fired. Spent four seasons with Padres in baseball operations, final two as executive VP. Joined Mets' front office, 2010, run by GM Sandy Alderson, Harvard Law School graduate and sabermetrics acolyte. DePodesta named VP of player development and amateur scouting. Commuted from family residence outside San Diego. Revamped processes behind Mets' approach to scouting, drafting, development, trades and free agency. Four straight losing seasons to start. October 2015, Mets win first pennant in 15 years. Lose to Royals in World Series.


PSYCH PORTRAIT, PART I

QUESTION MOST HEARD while preparing DePodesta report: Why now? Why leave chance at World Series for long shot with Browns? Opinion of associates familiar with Mets organization is that DePodesta was as far back as fourth in line for eventual GM job. Family and home remain in San Diego. GM job with Mets would require move to New York. (Browns allowing DePodesta to cross-country commute.) Also, analytics community feels that while sabermetrics pioneers such as Bill James and DePodesta transformed baseball, they never truly conquered it. "In the last 10 years, you'd be hard-pressed to come up with something new or original that Bill or Paul contributed to the field," states a former MLB analytics researcher. According to DePodesta, Browns offered chance to explore uncharted territory, "to try something different and take on unique challenge in the NFL."

PSYCH PORTRAIT, PART II

TO USE INDUSTRY colloquialisms: If DePodesta becomes first stat nerd to master NFL, he will forever be known as Obi-Wan Kenobi of analytics. No denying ego played some role in jump to NFL. In Oakland, DePodesta's superior mind was driving force behind team's success. Public credit and notoriety all went to Beane. DePodesta's high-profile flameout with Dodgers compounded by way it coincided with Beane disciple Theo Epstein emerging as sabermetrics savior in Boston. Success in NFL would instantly leapfrog DePodesta over intellectual contemporaries in baseball.

IMPENDING TECHNOLOGICAL REVOLUTION

NOT A COINCIDENCE DePodesta jumped to NFL just as league announced release of RFID (radio frequency identification) signals data collected in stadiums since 2014. Chips embedded in shoulder pads track real-time player position, movement and speed. Original massive amount of precise, insightful player performance data seen as NFL's Moneyball moment. Ben Alamar, ESPN director of sports analytics, classifies new RFID data set as "transformational." Says it "will wipe out all current limitations of NFL analytics and dramatically change the football world as we know it." Example: Teams will know instantly whether quarterback is throwing to most open receiver, pass rusher coming off knee surgery is moving at pre-injury speed or opponent alters position of safety by an inch in any direction on third downs. Use of RFID chips by NCAA would eventually make NFL combine obsolete. Only variable, Alamar says, is "how big teams want to think, how deep an understanding they want to gain." This being NFL, of course, many teams will likely not understand scope or potential of new data or even bother to open the files. Therefore, DePodesta's unique skill set combined with avalanche of raw RFID data could immediately close gap on competitors (like Steelers) who use more antiquated scouting systems.

OWNERSHIP OBSTACLES

FOR A YEAR, with franchise in disarray, Browns owner Jimmy Haslam, his wife, Dee, and new executive VP of football operations Sashi Brown reached out to learn from successful sports organizations. Crash course for Haslam, among worst owners in sports, re: leadership, turnover, analytics. Case in point: Before 2014 draft, team commissioned $100,000 study on quarterback prospects. Data strongly recommended drafting Teddy Bridgewater with No. 22 pick. Haslam said to have dismissed analytics and drafted Johnny Manziel. Bridgewater now Pro Bowl QB. Manziel out of football. Team now on 25th starting QB since 1999.

Under Haslam, Browns are 19 -- 45 and have lost 18 of past 21 games. Since buying team in 2012, Haslam has fired three coaches, and Browns are on sixth general manager in past eight years. Last season owner publicly committed to long-term rebuilding plan with promise not to "blow things up." In January, fired coach Mike Pettine and GM Ray Farmer.

Upon meeting Haslam, DePodesta explained how most owners treat Moneyball approach like a child riding a roller coaster. Kids beg to ride, wait in line for 45 minutes, get to front of line, see giant first hill and say, "I'm not getting on that thing." DePodesta states owners often want disciplined, process-oriented plan. But when it comes time to make tough decision, they panic. DePodesta told Haslam, "There are gong to be parts of the roller coaster that are going to be scary, that are going to be uncomfortable, but hopefully at the end of the ride, when we get off, you're going to want to say, 'Let's do it again.'"

Consensus inside NFL: Browns will get worse, much worse, before they get better, and turnaround could require up to five years, or twice the time Haslam typically tolerates. "In the pros, five years might as well be forever," Harvard's Murphy states. AFC analytics staffer states DePodesta could have perfect front office season and Browns still lose 14 games in 2016.

WORK ENVIRONMENT

HASLAM'S NEW COMMITMENT to Money(foot)-ball model evident in restructuring of Browns front office into Harvard West. DePodesta reports only to owner. Final say on 53-man roster now belongs to Sashi Brown, 39, fellow Harvard grad and Browns' former general counsel who worked on salary cap and player contracts. Brown, in turn, hired Harvard grad and former Colts pro scouting coordinator Andrew Berry, 28, to be Cleveland's VP of player personnel. Browns' top analytics mind, Ken Kovash, promoted to director of football research and player personnel. Fourth Harvard grad, Kevin Meers, is now team's head research analyst. In total, three of top four decision makers have no NFL scouting or roster-building experience. Cleveland brain trust now unlike anything else in football, which is exactly the point.

Fifth person in team's draft-day war room, coach Hue Jackson, is wild card. He favors gut, eye and instinct over data -- even to own detriment. Seemed out of loop at combine when he suggested analytics "not going to drive our organization." Hope is Jackson can bring balance and unique perspective to data-driven decision-making. Fear is he's "a very bad fit," according to former NFL exec. "It's not just Hue Jackson," same source states. "When data overrides gut, the majority of his coaching staff will all be there screaming, 'What the f--- are these computer guys doing? They don't understand football, they don't understand the locker room. They're killing us.'"

EARLY FIELD DATA

FREE AGENCY OFFERED glimpse into DePodesta "roller coaster" and Browns' new dispassionate, counterintuitive process. Leveraged deeply flawed, desperate Robert Griffin III into two-year deal with minimum ($6.75 million) guarantee. Move allows team to still draft Carson Wentz or Jared Goff in first round. Only now Browns can use Griffin during roster rebuild while protecting and developing rookie passer and future franchise QB. Should Griffin long shot pay off, Browns can lock him up at minimal salary cap hit.

In first 24 hours of free agency, team let four starters leave, including right tackle Mitchell Schwartz (to Kansas City) and Pro Bowl center and team's 2009 first-round pick Alex Mack (to Atlanta). Move left fans, media, NFL "experts" dumbfounded. Left analytics community impressed. Since 2011, teams that have spent least amount of guaranteed money in free agency -- Bengals (.656), Packers (.706), Steelers (.613) -- are among those with highest winning percentages. These teams, along with Ravens and Patriots, rebuild over long haul by stockpiling as many draft picks as possible, then supplement with free agents only when team is within striking distance of title. Accordingly, Browns now have 10 draft picks, tied for second most in league, including two in top 32. Ultimate test of Browns' commitment to new team-building conventions remains trading perennial All-Pro left tackle Joe Thomas, 31, if team gets anything close to first- and second-round picks that Broncos offered at 2015 trade deadline.

CONCLUSION

DEPODESTA DISPLAYS LEGITIMATE high-level, game-changing assets in otherwise staid NFL. Scores off the charts in mental makeup, creativity, vision, instincts, potential. Greatest variable remains whether Browns and owner Haslam can do something truly radical and stick to DePodesta plan for more than two years, especially if team initially struggles on field.

So far, DePodesta responding well to unique challenges of NFL. In February, attended first NFL combine. He reported overhearing NFL front office types trash-talking Browns. Synopsis: Browns so desperate, team turned to "baseball guy." Conversation, attitude reminiscent of famous scene from Moneyball movie involving similar grizzled, stubborn, get-off-my-lawn old-timers. Those scouts were eventually exposed, rendered obsolete, by DePodesta's analytics. "I said, 'All right, this is like 17 years ago in Oakland all over again,'" DePodesta says. "That's part of the fun."

High-character response consistent with overall exceptional NFL prospect. Early, elite levels of optimism not major concern. Those will quickly regress to mean in Cleveland.

Link

For all the those number crunchers don't know football complaints, I don't get it. Berry and DePodesta both played football collegiately. I'm pretty sure they know how locker rooms work. Multiple successful GMs have come up through the contracts side like Sashi.

I think this former executive is upset that he's out of a job.

Part of what DePodesta is good at is getting everyone on the same page and listening to everyone's input. We are not dealing with a person who is set in his ways.

"When a true genius appears in this world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift

link

j/c:

One thing for sure. The bozos have been wrong year after year when they speak poorly of the Browns and the homers on the message boards have been right about how good the Browns will be on how "we finally got the right people in place."

So, that's something to help keep the spirits up.

Was that really necessary

No it wasn't necessary. Nothing is necessary on here.

But what it was, was the truth. Every year people site all kinds of reasons why everything will be better this time, but it never is.

That doesn't mean it won't be better this time, but that doesn't change the truthfulness of his statement.

I have been willign to give every regime a chance even Romeo and Pettine two guys I thought were idiots. I really think Hue is a good coach and I am starting to see a method to the madness of analytics. The more i Learn the more intrigued I become. Hell I dont know if it will work or not but I am very curious as to how Depodesta plans on bringing the entire franchise under the umbrella of analytics.


It started with Hue lets just hope it ends with a Superbowl.

Well, it wasn't necessary, but it certainly wasn't as shameful of this post that you actually liked:



So, you liked that post and chided me for posting about something that actually occurs every year???

Awesome.

Mourg, I think there could be an issue down the road for Hue because obviously it's going to take quite awhile for the analytical style to succeed.

Given Haslam's past history, will he have the patience to see it through when winning 0 to 3 games a year is the norm? Does anyone really believe he will keep Hue around if the Browns have three straight years like that? Will he even keep Sashi and Paul around?

His history says............"no way."

I think Hue as a person gives him a chance to stick longer. He seems like a guy people like to be around. It's harder to fire those people than those with... less personality. As long as we can avoid in fighting within the organization, I think he gets 3-4 years despite whatever the record may be. I'm counting on the team not quitting on him as well.

Sashi could be a placeholder as Berry gets more experience. I see Depo as more of a temporary consultant while we get processes in place.

History doesn't say anything about the future. Circumstances have changed. We can't ignore it, but it holds no sway.

Find a QB and receivers this year. (Maybe RG3) Find a stud pass rusher and a corner next year. Shore up the line between the two drafts and we're not looking too bad. It doesn't have to take quite awhile. It definitely could, look at the past as you've pointed out. However, it doesn't always have to be the worst case scenario.

I completely disagree w/that statement.

Regardless of our history, this staff or whatever, whoever's staff regardless of whatever system they follow - they got massive amounts of work and uphill battling here with this team.

I'm actually not being rude or sarcastic, but - I'm just not sure who'd want to coach here.

The fact we even have a coach willing to jeopardize their careers in this city is something we should be thankful for.

History doesn't say anything about the future. Circumstances have changed. We can't ignore it, but it holds no sway.

This is a true statement. If we all lived in the past, how would we ever move forward?

Just to touch on the analytics thing. I don't think DePodesta, coming here the first week of January, gives him enough time to revamp our entire organizational structure, (as Chief Strategy Officer), and then to "analytically" value our entire roster, and then put analytical values on all the draftable players, and then instruct the draft decision makers in how to use analytics as a tool in time for the draft, and then have Berry, Hue and Sashi have time to make up their board by the end of April.

So I don't expect major implication of any of it this first season. There's just too much to do in a short time. I think it's going to be a step-by-step process taking a couple of years to fully incorporate it into the organization.

This first draft is going to be, in my opinion, very shaky in that regard although that is not to say they get a pass this time. The draft is far too important to go into it half-assed. They have to hit on a few picks. So I'm guessing they're implementing this as much as can be handled and still do a good job.

They have to do a good job. They do not have to set the NFL on fire and should not be judged by that criteria.

So...........you have a dinner party. One of your guests steals from you. Would you invite him/her back? After all, what that person did in the past has no bearing on what they will do in the future.

Has that person changed since then? Have they been rehabilitated? Has there financial situation changed?

If yes to all three, then sure, I'd invite them back.

What have Berry, Sashi, and Depo "stolen"? You have an axe to grind with Haslam and you seem to let that carry over onto everyone else.

Last I checked, Haslam still owned the team.

Your lumping all the FO's together. We can't judge this FO for at least a year. Everythings new. Some have been here for a year or so and others are brand new, we have to give it time.

Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog

Last I checked, Haslam still owned the team.

If your gonna dog the Brown'a until Haslam sell, then were all in trouble

Hey, I am just a guy stating his opinion.

Unless you buy the team you are being nonproductive, like a dog chasing it's tail.

Which is exactly what I said. And only reinforces my point.

Tashaun Gipson gives most Browns reason ever for joining Jaguars


His reason for wanting to join the Jaguars instead of staying with the Browns might just be the most Browns thing ever. According to ESPN, Gipson said he left Cleveland for Jacksonville because he wanted "to start winning." And that might be a new low for the Browns -- when Jacksonville, of all places, is viewed as an upgrade.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-foot...joining-jaguars

this is just like the whole Mack arguement...Gipson wanted out and nothing they did would have kept him here...we didn't let him walk nor did we let Mack walk...

And people keep telling me to drop it.........

Sheesh!!!!

yea i guess that's just the way it is...I just don't get how two players wanting out is the FO's failure to resign? makes zero sense to me...

You have proven nothing w/those comments. Furthermore, if they really did want out, what's that say about how they view the direction of the team?

I will stop if you guys stop. But man, I am not going to stay mum while you guys continue to invent excuses for the failure of the Browns in free agency.

People keep saying.........it's over, it's done. Drop it. But yet, you guys don't drop it.

Drop it or deal w/some of us responding. Your choice.

how exactly is quoting a player saying he wanted out inventing anything? you are dead wrong there. not an excuse just the way it is...are you saying those two players are lying about wanting out? do you really want to throw large amounts of money for two guys who don't want be here...I have seen how people work when they don't want to be at their job...they don't work as hard as they could. that's just pure foolishness thinking. "letting them walk" implies they wanted to be here and we didn't meet them half way.that is letting them walk

I can't find a quote where Gipson says: "I wanted out of Cleveland."

Can you please point it out to me?