DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2016 NFL Season 2016 NFL Draft OLB/3-4 DEs

What point are you trying to make?

Pretty sure that's the point of calling nickle the new base defense.

Most teams are in a "nickel" defense because the base personnel of offenses has changed, not because they attempt to pass the ball more.

If a team is running out three wide receivers, then you should probably throw three corners out there as well (unless you are running a some sort of crazy zone defense).

I believe that NFL defenses were in "nickel" defenses 64% of the time last year.

(I am putting nickel in quotes because many teams play a lot with four corners.)

Alright........can we get back on track?

Does it matter what you call it? I think those numbers were pretty revealing.

The AFC throws the ball more than they run it.

Teams in the NFL play w/5 defensive backs more than they play w/4.

Thus, the point about Bosa being used as an edge rusher is legit.

I really don't think you read what I posted. Heck, I even posted the percentage of time they played w/5 dbs.

Joey Bosa can stay on the field for all three downs because of his ability to stop the run and rush the passer. That is very important (it is also the reason I didn't want to draft draft Danny Shelton with a first round pick last year).

Agreed.

Thus, it is wrong to minimize what he brings to a defense by classifying him as a 3-4 LBer or 4-3 DE. It is also wrong to say our division is a black and blue division. All four teams pass the ball more than they run it.

I used two different sites for the information. The 65 per cent one was for the entire NFL.

I would agree w/you about how the passing/running ratio helps raise the stock of the Ramsey/Jack.

Hmmmmm..........but it might help Bosa, too. Because a strong pass rush really hurts the passing game.

I think the AFC North numbers were skewed a bit last season due to the injuries at RB for Pitt (Bell) and Baltimore (everyone).

We've got to get better in nickel and base.

I like Bosa better as a run stopper on the edge with 4 down linemen than a pass rusher. He does offer some pass rush, but I don't really see him as a double digit sack guy.On the other hand (base), I'm not sure how well his run stopping will translate when he is in space more. It is a lot of projection. His power dominated O-Linemen at times in college. I don't think it'll happen much in the pros. He doesn't have elite burst to complement it.

I do think there's a good chance he'll be a solid player. I'm not sure he'd live up to being the number 2 pick.

Ever heard of DeAngelo Williams?

And were the numbers that I posted about the percentage of how often teams played the nickle also skewed?

I always wonder how and why so many posters argue facts and champion opinions??????????

You mean the 32 year old replacement RB who was cut by his previous team?

You don't think they would have used Bell more?

No, but I didn't say they were. And, I wasn't arguing that we didn't play/need nickel players. I said I didn't think Bosa was a super nickel player, or a super 3-4 OLB on run downs.

Go ahead and keep trying to twist my words to further your agenda. I'm starting to get warm and fuzzies every time you do it now. I think it means I must have a point, and you don't know how to actually address it.

I wonder if you've broken all the mirrors in your house. It seems to me you don't like looking in them.

*deep breath* I'll stop there.

Think about this, I know you said you do not like Bosa at 2, but how can you support taking a guy that would only play in passing situations? Yes the Nickel is much more common, but Rushing from an OLB spot, is very different from an end. Yes there are variations they will run that would put him on the line. But they will not do that every play. As a matter of fact, usually they run the base defense "setup". Meaning while they have packages, and varaitions, they tend to still line up with 3 lineman and 4 lbers. I wouldn't want to put a guy into a position he isn't used to. And drafting him in the top 5 if he won't start is just bad imo.

If you are drafting in the top 10, you need a stud player tht will be a 3 down player. Whether it's offense or defense. Bosa sadly isn't that guy. He has decent speed for an end, but not for a linebacker. He would be rushing from as far as 5 yards out on plays. It's just not worth the risk.

For most of what we are talking about 43 vs 34 there is a significant difference between end, and OLB. Also you don't want to telegraph who is rushing, and if Bosa comes in, and rushes everytime, That only helps the offense in diagnosing where the pass rush is coming from.

Being on the field isn't the same as being good at the position. Do you think Bosa can cover Te's and Rb's? Remember he had what a 4.7 40? That's a liablilty in coverage. He will not be a constant rusher, or the offense will know when it's a passing down that is 1 of the rushers. The point of the 34 is to disguise who is rushing the passer. You eliminate that if all Bosa does is rush.

Bosa is great at the point of attack because he is althletic and more agile/faster then typical Olineman. What happens when that isnt' the case because he is forced to the area of the ballcarrier, where lineman can get their hands on him.

I will never understand why people would want to move a guy from a position he is good at to "try" a different position. Remember when Peppers said he would be a an even better OLB then went to GB and sucked? There is a reason why. Look at Clowney, ultra talented, huge, fast and stucks at OLB. Some guys just cannot be moved. I see this in Bosa.

He wouldn't be standing up in certain pass rush situations. Most teams have four down linemen in their nickel package. At his size he could even move inside along with Desmond Bryant and then have Mingo and Kruger (or whoever our pass rushers are) outside (during passing downs).




Peppers is a horrible example. He went to Green Bay in his age thirty-four season (and had seven sacks, in 2015 he had 10.5 sacks).

Don't think of Bosa having a position, think of him as a pass rusher.

With all that said, I don't think we should pick Bosa because if we stay at pick #2 there will be more talented players on the board.

Julius Peppers is a really bad example Browsfan. He's old as dirt and still has had 17.5 sacks the last 2 years,

What are people's thoughts on Ngakoue?

The Penn State game got added to draftbreakdown. He flashes a nice spin move in it. His name has been getting buzz, and Sashi was at his pro day (he could have been there for Davis as our DB coach was there, too)

Ngakoue vs. Penn St

Maryland Pro Day writeup

I was excited about Nkagoue last year when I was watching Maryland for their DL guys (Kilgo and another guy whose name escapes me at the moment) and he really flashed. Then I was excited when he started racking up sacks and started posting about him again. Then when I finally got to watch some terps this year I was disappointed in what he showed. Most plays he was a total non factor. He did nothing against the run and was not a good tackler. For as many snaps as he is on the field he is not around the ball much and I don't think he even got to 30 tackles this year as a 3-4 OLB despite playing every game.

Are you freaking serious?

I am going to post my original post again. There is NO freaking agenda. They are FREAKING FACTS!!!!

Quote: [from tab]
Makes sense Ed...about the nickel. Not sure if our Black and Blue division would put us in Nickel. In the past teams would run on us...which would kill us. If we stop the run consistently and shut them down - I could see teams getting us into Nickel D.

My Reply:


A couple of things. One about our division and one about how often do teams play nickel. I will provide links:

1. AFC North being black and blue or liking to pass.

--Baltimore ranked number one in passes per game in the entire NFL last year. They threw the ball 42.2 times a game.

--The Browns ranked 11th with 38.1 pass attempts per game.

--The Steelers were 15th with 36.8 attempts per game. I actually thought they were higher, but still in the top half of the league.

--The Bengals ranked 26th in the league with 32.1 attempts per game.

Here is the link: https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/pass-attempts-per-game

From the same site: This one is for rushing attempts per game.

--The Bengals were 7th with 28.9 rushing attempts per game.

--Steelers were 24th with 24.2 attempts per game.

--Ravens were 25th with 23.9 attempts per game.

--Browns were 26th with 23.8 attempts per game.

Obviously, our division is not really a black and blue division anymore. And if you look at the numbers, all four teams threw the ball more times than they ran it.

Here is another interesting angle. It addresses how often teams are in the nickle defense:

Quote:
The 2015 season was the seventh straight year for an increase in the number of defensive snaps in the NFL with five defensive back or more on the field. Per Pro Football Focus here is the percentage of plays in NFL games with five DBs or more on the field in every season since 2008:

2008: 43.4%

2009: 45.1%

2010: 48.8%

2011: 52.5%

2012: 54.4%

2013: 58.3%

2014: 60.3%

2015: 63.4%

Nearly two-thirds of all snaps were played in the nickel defense last season, so it's about time we start referring to sets with five defensive backs as the base NFL defense. The rise of slot cornerbacks and hybrid safety/linebacker types has coincided with the proliferation of spread offense concepts throughout the NFL. Offenses are turning to more one-back sets, more three-wide sets, and more shotgun with each passing season, and defenses have predictably responded by putting additional coverage players on the field.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-foot...ense-in-the-nfl


Wow! That is pretty amazing. Thus, I think ed's point about playing in the nickle was a great one. I tried to say the same thing about how teams will use Bosa in the past. I think this latest information lends credence to that belief.

Okay Grimm.........................Where is the Agenda? I posted FACTS. I'm sorry you can't handle the truth!

That's not the post I responded to about your agenda.

The post I was responding to about your agenda was you claiming the Steelers wouldn't have ran more with Bell than Deangelo Williams or The Ravens wouldn't have ran more if there RBs hadn't all gotten hurt.

I asked about the reasoning behind the stats. You came back with Deangelo Williams.

Not only do you have to twist my words, you have to try to deceive people on what they were in response to.

You've been the one complaining about low accountability. Talk about hypocrisy.

Yeah, and you conveniently forgot to mention Dalton getting hurt.

Look at the numbers I quoted. I don't think there is much doubt that this is now a passing league. I don't think there is much doubt that teams play a lot of nickle. Again, that is a league wide number.

Thus, I don't think ed's point about Bosa being an edge rusher and not worrying too much about the 3-4 or 4-3 thing is correct.

Look man..........I detest how you turn things around. If all you want to do is throw punches, let's just ignore one another. I am sick of your crap.

What I posted was viable information. You turn it into a freaking argument. WTH???????????

Sheesh, I researched it ONLY because I was curious. tab made a point about our division. I am NOT reaming him for making that point. We read it all the time on here. It was that way for years. I just started thinking about how the Steelers were throwing the ball all over the field last year. When healthy, their passing game was unreal.

I was curious! I researched it. I was pretty amazed by the results. I thought people would enjoy the post. I thought it was informative. I thought it shed light on how the game has changed.

But no...........it turns into another stupid argument where I get accused of having an agenda. What freaking agenda would that be?

I bet most people didn't even read it. Too long. Let's just keep saying the same old things. "Bosa isn't a 3-4 LBer."

Awesome!!!

A couple of late round guys that have some potential that I woould like us to take a look at are:

Victor Ochi - Stonybrook 6'2 255 4.75
Tyrone Holmes Montana 6'4 250 4.86
Jatavis Brown Akron 5'11 222 4.47

I don't think taking all three would be realistic. I doubt we take 2 but I hope we take a flier on one of these guys

I did notice the around the ball deal a little bit. I'm not sure how much of that was due to contain responsibilities. He ended up with 38 total tackles according to espn game logs.

What do you think of his pass rush, though?

Do you know how his snap split looked between hand up or hand down (roughly)? I saw a couple plays at OLB in the Penn State game, but he primarily was down.

Whatever Vers. Enjoy running everybody who disagrees with you off.

What do you mean by disagreeing?

I posted actual stats. Those are NOT my opinions. They are reality.

Good God, man!

Are you really telling me you didn't find them interesting? Or, didn't you read them and just chose to argue once again?

Bosa measureables are almost identical to Ryan Kerrigan and from watching/reading about Bosa they're similar players.

I'm not even advocating for Bosa. But 34 teams have been drafting and "converting" college DEs for years.

Hey, I am not saying the Browns should draft Bosa either. But one big mouth keeps saying I have an agenda. Hell, I would like to know what that agenda is.

I was agreeing w/you that Bosa is an edge rusher and that ruling him out because of the 3-4 or 4-3 thing is not correct, based on the information I quoted from actual factual articles.

Disclaimer: I didn't check other sites for the accuracy of that information. I posted some defensive numbers on here awhile ago, and guard politely pointed out that my numbers were off. I checked, and he was correct. He was cool about it and didn't ream me. I appreciate that. I wasn't trying to deceive anyone.

I am not trying to deceive anyone here, either. If someone wants to verify the information I provided, please do so. I'd rather look stupid and have the right information posted than look smart and post incorrect information.

I listened to a podcast that compared Joey Bosa to Chandler Jones. That is a good comparison.

The below site compares a player's combine numbers to other players throughout the years:

http://www.mockdraftable.com/player/7042/

I drafted both Ochi and Holmes in my mock. I don't think Brown is a good choice in a 3-4 because he is blocked too easily from what I saw in the NFLPA game and the one draftbreakdown cut up. Strictly 4-3 WLB, but can be very good there

I think Brown would be more of a sub-package chess piece. Shading the slot to the inside when the other team is in trips but we expect a run type of deal.

Wouldn't be against drafting him at the right spot.

I think we are getting lost in somantics. Pass rusher is a generic term. Defensive end, and outside linebackers are specific positions. If Bosa lines up on the line at the end, then he is playing end, not outside linebacker. Look at the Ravens and Suggs. He has nearly a 50% split between the two slots. I am assuming that is what you see from Bosa correct?

Or do you see Bosa as a pass rusher who only plays on passing downs and rushes from the end position? I know it sounds like i am making a play on words, but saying he is a "pass rusher" isn't the best way to describe him. Suh is a pass rusher, Geno Atkins is a pass rusher. Many positions can be considered pass rushers. I am speaking of what his normal position he will play for the majority of the three downs he is on the field.

Otherwise you are talking about taking a guy who only plays in passing situations, and that is a horrible idea taking a limited player at #2.

If we take Bosa #2 overall, he will be playing majority Outside linebacker. Yes he will line up at end for as much 40-50% of the snaps, but he will not be rushing the passer 100% of the time. Do you truly feel comfortable with him in coverage, and just excelling at the responsibilities other the rushing the passer?

And I am not sure what you mean by Bosa's size that he can move inside. He weighed 269 at the combine. That's not particularly heavy. So not sure what you mean by that.

In response to those statistics, I said the results may have been skewed "a little bit" by injuries at RB.

I've got to get to class, but I'll post some links. Look at Pitt's and Baltimore's stats in the games that Forsett and Bell played versus when they didn't. Look at the games against us also in those two cases.

Forsett game logs

Bell game logs

Ravens Season Stats with by game breakdown

Steelers season stats with by game breakdown

Cleveland Season Stats with By game breakdown.

I didn't say the facts you posted were wrong. I implied they might be slightly misleading due to injury.

Then you said Deangelo Williams was basically the equivalent of Bell and I got frustrated.

You forgot to factor in that Ben, Flacco, and Dalton all missed games. That doesn't count?

I still don't see why you are trying to argue. The numbers for the nickle defenses was a league-wide percentage. Teams throw the ball in today's NFL.

Your point would be fine if you were looking at last year alone.

The problem with the point you're attempting to make is that this has been an upward trend and 60% were ran in 2014, 58.3% in 2013 and the numbers have gone up steadily since 2008.

I don't believe you're making a valid point by trying to isolate it to the 2015 season when this trend has clearly developed over time.

I don't want to get in the middle of this fracas but it seems to me that you may arguing over a smaller point that doesn't take away from the larger point.

You could be right, maybe the stats are skewed in the AFC East because of RB injuries but to what degree? Maybe it has a significant impact..but maybe it doesn't.

However; there is a clear trend towards passing which has caused a clear trend in the use of nickel personnel (or any non-base defense subpackage).

(cfrs15 please correct me if I'm wrong) But I think the term he was looking for Bosa edge rusher.

I keep referring back to Ryan Kerrigan because I see them a similar players and I'm familiar with Ryan's transition from college DE.

Sure, Ryan plays OLB in base. But like most rush olbs he rarely ever drops in coverage and he plays with hand in the dirt as a DE in a 4-man line nearly 65% of the time.

And again I'm not even pimping for Bosa because he wouldn't be my choice at pick #2. My point is only about a player like Bosa's role in a "34" defense.

I am all for the trade down to 4 if possible at to take Deforest buckner, hell I am starting to believe he is worth the #2 pick. The more I watch on this kid the more i love.

You put this kid with Desmond Bryant and Shelton int he middle and we have a front 3 that can change things. Now you also have Cooper that can come in get reps and keep these guys fresh.

Bucker may just be the guy that could have the biggest impact upon our defense.

Kid promised his parents he would graduate, woulda been top 10 pick last year most likely and came back and did it again. He is a special talent and I get that same feel with him as I did with JJ watt.

Kid gets some good coaching and he is gonna wreck havoc.