DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2016 NFL Season 2016 NFL Draft OLB/3-4 DEs

Yeah, that's what I was shooting for. Not sure how Vers ended up where he did on it.

Pittsburgh Rush Yards
wk 4-7 average 152.5 (Bell played full game)
wk 3-7 avg 134.4 (Bell 1st game off suspension)
wk 3-8 avg 131.33 (1st game back and game injured)
wk 1-2u9-17 93.6 (Regular season w/o Bell)

The later games when one might assume poorer weather and therefore more running were while Bell was hurt.
Bell didn't face us either game against Pitt this season.

When Baltimore had Forsett they ran for 181 yards against us, when they didn't the ran for 104.

Cincinnati ran for 152 and 144 yards against us.

While the league is trending toward the pass (including w/in the AFC North), the AFC North still has some black and blue in it.

We do need to improve our nickel/pass D, but don't forget the base/run D.

We were 30th in the NFL against the run and 22nd against the pass.

I'm curious why/what makes say the above?
I couldn't disagree more. A dominating player can come at any position and having dominating or even good 34 DE is vital if you're gonna have a good defense.

Unfortunately we don't know who is going to be dominating until they show it in the league.

I think you missed my point. And your point seems to be shifting around.

Yes, of course the defense needs to improve in all phases.

I rarely use 'counting stats' that nfl.com/espn offers to gauge defense. I prefer football outsiders (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef) they rate the run defense 26th and pass defense 27th. Needless to say the defense needs improved.

However; when it comes specifically to our previous conversation the point remains. I think your burden of proof in proving that this division, is an anomaly from the rest of the league and plays less nickel/sub packages then in base D is much higher then you've provided.

Imo posting raw rush yards and making inferences from them doesn't make the point that this division somehow plays less nickel defense then the rest of league. It could actually mean quite the opposite. Maybe because defenses are forced to play nickel against strong passing attacks it makes it easier for the running. We can speculate to death.

But, the league wide trend is clear.

That was never my point. I agree on the nickel D being used more.

Vers lumped two different groups of stats together in his initial post, and used them to support the claim that the AFC North wasn't a black and blue division anymore. I was simply trying to point out that a 2 out of the other 3 teams not having their top RB may have affected that perception. Not that the stats were wrong, but that the assertion based upon them didn't have an overwhelming amount of evidence. One injury plagued season doesn't define the nature of a division.

Yes, it's a passing league. Yes, the AFC North passes more now. I don't see those things meaning the division isn't black and blue anymore. Until James Harrison is gone, I'm hesitant to take away that label.

That is a complete lie. You are so quick to want to fight w/me and prove your junk is bigger than mine that you either are lying or you don't correctly read my posts.

This ALL started w/ed's belief that Bosa is an edge rusher and the he will be used as such and to to classify him as only a 3-4 guy or 4-3 guy was wrong.

I gave two different examples. They were NOT related. Please stop making crap up about what I said. Jesus.......I posted articles w/very little commentary. You gotta rip it and start yet another fight.

I am soooooooooooo sick of the the bottom feeders ruining good football conversations. It always turns into this crap.

In this post #1100599 - 04/12/16 10:33 AM Re: OLB/3-4 DEs [Re: eotab] by Versatile Dog in this thread.

There are two sets of stats in the same post. Fact

Whether the black and blue division part was you or an article is hard to discern. It wasn't in a quote block like the others. I took it as your opinion. "Obviously, our division is not really a black and blue division anymore." I attributed to you.

It doesn't seem obvious to me.

The how Bosa should be labeled, how often teams run nickel bits I wasn't responding to.

I didn't even rip it. I added a caveat and you attacked me.

I'm tired of you making things up, falsely claiming I'm making things up, and calling me names.

I added you to my ignore list and I still can't get away from you. Every other post is still you being quoted arguing with someone.

You are now telling me what my intent was? LMAO

I know what the hell my intent was. It was that Bosa was an edge rusher and he shouldn't be labeled as a 3-4 or 4-3 guy who has to drop into coverage.

I provided stats to back that opinion.

As usual, you misread it and started a stupid argument that you can't win. You then try and blame me when someone else questions you about your BS!

Take a hike!

smh.

Yeah.........and thanks for ruining what could have been a real football conversation.

If we can back on track.............

I was thinking about Bosa and how people try and classify him as this or that. That got me to thinking about other guys in the league who might be similar players. I am asking for some help here to allow me to get a better handle on things.

I have a few players that come to mind when I think of Bosa. I would like for some help to see if there really are similarities or if I am way off base. I am hoping to get responses from some of our more objective posters.

1. How does Bosa compare to these guys:

Lee Suggs: How often does Suggs drop into pass coverage? Does he trail guys down the field, or is he an edge rusher who might cover the flat occasionally?

Here is an excerpt from an article:



2. Jared Allen: Did he tail receivers down the field? Or was he primarily and edge rusher? Here is an excerpt from an article:



3. Ziggy Ansah: He's 270 lbs. Does he chase receivers down field? Here is one comparison:


I have a few other guys that come to mind. Khalil Mack, DeMarcus Ware, who was that guy who was a stud........ended up w/the Falcons........shoot.......gotta look it up, brain freeze........Oh yea, John Abraham......256 lbs. Don't think he dropped into coverage much. How about these guys........Dwight Freeny, Robert Mathis? Were they huge. Did they cover a lot, or did the rush the passer?

I could see the Allen comp best. Maybe Suggs (you slipped a Lee instead of Terrell). I don't really see the Colts (Freeny/Mathis).

I still like the Ryan Kerrigan comp.

He's more of a heavy handed, effort and leverage guy than the finesse, spin move type.

Are you coming around to OLB in base or are you still thinking 5-Tech?

I think primarily 5-technique.

However, I think Bosa is the kind of player you scheme around rather than forcing him into a scheme.

I forget who said it.....it was during the season........but the guy said that you don't take Joey Bosa and plug him into a scheme. Instead, you take Joey Bosa and scheme around him to utilize his talents. You put him on the edge and let him penetrate. You can even move him inside occasionally and let him use his quickness in 1-gap techniques.

Heck, I have kinda moved on from drafting Bosa at 2. He seems kinda quirky. That bothers me a bit. I think his football abilities are fine..........he just seems a bit odd. I could be wrong about that, but I don't like risks when having such a high pick.

Play it safe w/the high picks. Take risks later on.

I get exactly what you're saying as far as quirky.

I agree that fitting the scheme to the talent is ideal. My faith in a D-Coordinator on the Browns doing that isn't very high, though. Last season's D still gives me nightmares.

Horton has a big freaking mouth and he made too many excuses last time around, but I do think he puts guys into position to make plays. We'll see......

Then again, it's probably a long shot that the Browns draft Bosa.

He got better production out of his LBs, I'll give Horton that. Not sure about his DE's though. I keep thinking of the Dockett complaints. That's kind of why I question OLB vs DE in base. Using Bosa primarily to eat blockers would be a waste of his skills in my estimation.

I don't really think we take him either, and he could pan out if we do. In sub, I think Horton could get good use/production. Looking back at Horton's use of DE's in base I'm having a hard time seeing Bosa maximized there.

Why does Bosa or anyone have to be JJ Watt in order to be taken at 2?

You wouldn't want a guy like Miller? Or Mack?

I think the confusion is coming from you seeing Bosa as a 5 tech. We think of those other players as OLBs even though in sub packages they'd play similar roles.

We can agree there that JJ Watt is a freak, HOF caliber player. But, just because a player isn't JJ Watt doesn't mean they're not helping the defense. Mo Wilkerson (who actually had more pressures then Watt, Mike Daniels, Jason Hatcher(although he's getting old), Leonard Williams the list goes on.

Also, I don't think Bosa is anything like Watt. Different, size, different explosion, completely different position.

I think you're playing very fast and loose here with your opinions/assumptions.
-I have no idea what you mean by designated for impact
-IF any player gets double teamed its a win. Football is a numbers game. Each side gets 11. 11 Xs and 11 Os. Anytime 1 X requires 2 Os to account for them its a win.
-Whether or not a defense creates 1 on 1 match-ups is up to the coaches and the scheme its out of the players control, players job is to dominate-coaches job is to scheme it up
If Watts coaches never find ways to get him favorable match-ups is not his fault

All positions are important football is the ultimate team sport. If you have a speed rusher without interior push you just have guy that gets close to the QB but doesn't get sacks because the QB can step. etc..etc..Howie Long, Bruce Smith, Niel Smith etc...recent Justin Smith, Richard Seymour...currently you got Mo Wilkerson, Mike Daniels, Jason Hatcher, Leonard Williams (although he's getting old) the list goes on.

And going back to an earlier post- just because Bryant is a dominating player doesn't mean that position can't be dominant.

No one new JJ Watt was gonna be JJ Watt if they did he would have been drafted #1 overall.
Imho you don't draft a position with the expectation that player will be a 'playmaker' or 'dominant'. You draft a player because after years of research they are the highest rated player on your board and you draft them with full knowledge your just shooting craps. But you hope with a strong organization, good coaching, good locker room leadership that the players you draft reach their potential.

This isn't exactly true. If you can find yourself the next JJ Watt or Richard Seymour you will see your defense go crazy if you have people around them. 34 ends that get more then 8 sacks in a year are very rare. You find a 34 end that gets 14 a year you better pay him, and hope you can build around him. It's just those guys are so rare. Literally one a decade.

Ut oh...

I like this new photo finding mission you're on.

At least this one doesn't have a watermark.

Thanks. Me too. It makes me laugh and I need to laugh after reading some of the takes on this board. For example, the thread about the Rams/Titan's trade was boggling my mind. Read the exchange between Pastor and cfrs, for example.

You could make a case for any position save Fullback then for going number 2. That's not really an argument, or a point. You would take Gronkowski 2 right now. You would take Zack Martin 2 right now. You would take Aaron Donald 2 right now. I don't think there is a player at any position that you wouldn't take at 2 if he was a star. Again except fullback.

Jim Brown played FB.

NFL football was a different game then.

Impact edge rushers are at a premium.

Yes they are, but setting them up to fail in a scheme that doesn't take advantage of their strengths is just as bad. If you don't think Bosa playing OLB will have to cover you're crazy. Unless you are drafting Bosa as a situational pass rush player. And why would you draft a guy at 2 who you don't play all 3 downs? It makes no sense. Bosa is a 43 end, let him play there and be a good player. Don't try to force him into a role he doesn't excel at.

"Converting" college 43 DEs into 34 OLBs has been happening in the league since...well...forever

"34" Defenses play as "43" defense around 65% of the time.

34 OLBs especially the "rush" OLB don't drop back often

Bosa is good enough to play the run, so it's unlikely that Bosa would only play 3rd downs/known passing downs. BUT again even if that was his only role it would still have value because of how often teams are in known passing situations. Aldon Smith played that exact role as rookie and iirc had 10+ sacks

If you take a DE for backer in the top 10 he damn sure better be able to get tot he QB. I just havent seen that from Bosa.

I think the problem stems from the fact that Kruger did drop fairly often last season for some reason. Bosa looks very similar to Kruger as an OLB. Kruger did not look good dropping. If you want to play them together, which one do you drop? Or do you effectively play a 5-2?

Another issue is that Vers was projecting Bosa as a 3-4 end. Some people, myself included, don't think he's best suited to play there. Sure, he could play there, but I think he'd have a bigger impact in a 4-3. If you have him playing 3-4 end would he need to bulk up? If he bulks up would he lose some of his already mediocre speed? If he doesn't bulk up, would he be effective against the running game or could people run at him? Horton has traditionally used his base ends to occupy blockers. Why spend pick 2 overall on a guy whose job is to occupy blockers?

Yes, in nickel he could play on the edge and rush the passer, but he's primarily a power rusher. I'm not sure if he'll be as good as he was in college when going against stronger linemen. I think he does have Jared Allen upside, but I think a lot of it is against the run which projects better in the 4-3.

34 defenses often line up as 5-2 front, but again that's in base personnel which happens ~40%. The question of which OLB rushes is a scheme question that only applies to base defense. The other ~60 of the time when the front is effectively a 43 and both olbs will be rushing as 43 DEs.

But that's not my issue. I don't see Bosa as a 5-tech 34 DE at all.

I've said before in this thread that I'm not even a Boas advocate. I'm showing what role a college 43 DE has in the NFL as 34 "OLB".

As far as pass rush style goes, for me style isn't as important as productivity and Bosa was productive. The question of whether he'll be as good in the NFL as he was in college is a question that faces every prospect.

If the Browns use the #3 pick on defense I want either Buckner/Ramsey.

Can you quote where you are getting this information? Because it's not accurate. If Bosa plays in a 34 he will not be in a modded 43. He will play in a 34 set. The rise of the nickel does mean they sometimes use 4 down lineman, but they also run 3-3-5 and other variations. He will not have his hand down on 50% plays.

34 defenses use the 34 as the base, and run variations from that. Here is an interesting article about Justin Houston where it says he is also one of the top coverage Outside linebackers. Remember this guy had 22 sacks in what 2014?

http://www.chiefs.com/news/article-2/Chi...a1-e0993fc3a430

If Bosa plays 3 downs, he will be in coverage. The point of a 34 defense is to disguise the rushers. If you know Bosa is going to rush 100% of the time, he isn't disguised. All 4 linebackers rush, and change it up to keep the offense guessing. Yes he will rush alot, but not 100% and you better hope he can cover people, otherwise he won't play in those situations, and you don't take a 2down player number 2.