DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2016 NFL Season 2016 NFL Draft Titans Trade No. 1 Pick to LA Rams

I'm with you mourg.

Trade back, get the extra picks and take Lynch - the best Qb in this class imo

Let's look at the question a different way.
How many games would we have won if we had better Qb play?
I think that is the more relevant question to ask.


Then you need to ask the questions:
Is RG3 that Qb?
Are any of the Qb's available that Qb?

Wentz is 24, but QBs can play till 40. Quarterback requires the least athleticism (it is a nice bonus) and the most maturing/mental agility of any position (See Tom Brady/Peyton Manning). Does Lynch have it from the shoulders up (with a side trip mid-chest)? I'm convinced Wentz does. Does Wentz have the innate ability to process what he's seeing near instantaneously? I don't know.

Wentz is 23, he won't be 24 till December 30th..

I think goff is the guy that the Rams want. Everythign I have heard for the last 2 months was that the Rams were trying to find a way to move up for goff. goff goes #1.

I also can see Jerry Jones, thinking you know Romo cant finish a season and he isnt getting any younger. I dont think we will be back up here in the top 5 anytime soon, lets go get our QB (who the Cowboys coaching staff love). QB was the reason the boys didnt win last year.

Eagles and 49ers are also all over the QB bidding war. Eagles offering up players.

I am almost certain we will trade down but I am not certain Lynch is gonna be there past the eagles.

I just hope the Eagles Owner wanting a QB badly, pushes jerry jones ego into an RG3 deal.

Thanks i have heard it said by the talking heads 24, thats what i get for listening lol.

There has to be one of those guys in the draft though.

Wentz was the closet thing to that and now he might be gone. I would not rank him as his on our QB list as Couch was when he was drafted.

Here are the QB's that we drafted.

1999 Tim Couch (Probably the QB with the most upside that we drafted, most talent as well)
2004 Luke McCown (4th rounder, we won't count him)
2005 Charlie Frye (3rd rounder, we won't count him)
2007 Brady Quinn
2010 Colt McCoy
2012 Brandon Weeden
2014 Billy Manziel (probably the second most upside as QB that we drafted. would rather party than play football though)

I'd rank the upside with Wentz about equal to JFF. Goff, I think what you see now is about the same as what you'll see later physically. He has a decent shot at being an average starter, but not much better then that. I'd rank him closer to Brady Quinn.

Do I like either of these guys at #2? No. There are plenty of guys that aren't far off from them lower in the draft.

I'd trade down and target a QB later. There are no quick fix QB's in this draft.

Just because someone paid it doesn't mean it was worth it..

Honestly, I think the contracts that Osweiller got scared the hell out of general managers around the league and that has driven the trade market for QB as much as anything.

IF we trade back, as far would we be willing to go? How many players would you be happy to get with our 1st pick?

Wentz
Goff
Lynch

Ramsey
Bosa
Buckner
Tunsil

Jack - if medicals check out.
Zeke Elliot? Maybe

That's 7 for sure and 2 maybe
I acknowledge that Lynch might be controversial to many of you.

If I am GM I am willing to drop back only so far as to guarantee that I get one of those players.


If Goff goes 1st I can see a bidding battle between Dallas and Philly.
Dallas would be the safer trade as we are guaranteed to get a really good player
Trading with Philly would get a much bigger haul but the player we get will be right at the border of acceptable.

If Wentz goes 1st, I think the trade partner changes to SF.
Though not sure they would be willing to give up what I would want to drop to their pick.

That's because they haven't picked anyone.

Allowing the decisions of people no longer employed by the team to sway their opinion would be among the worst things our new front office could do.

There is also zero proof that they can't

Jeffery Lurie vs Jerry Jones for Carson Wentz could push the bidding to beyond the RG3 trade lol

I would laugh pretty hard if we got more for pick #2 than the Titans got for #1.

Two teams insanely pursued RGIII.

I understand your point though, if you believe a franchise QB is there, you got to take him. I am just more of a Goff fan than a Wentz fan.

I just want SF's 2017 1st. Don't really care what else we get. Gimme #7, #68, 2017 1st. I'd love to be loaded up with 2nd rounders in this year's draft, but a potential top 5 pick next season would be awesome.

CFRS, what do you think of Lynch? He's not as ready as Goff, but seems to have a lot of upside.

Don't worry, CleveSteve, we'll have a top five pick in 2017. :-(

First let me say that I respect your opinion, but totally disagree.
We are forever taking the " what if " QB prospects on the board & failing. This cycle needs to end if anything is really going to change in Cleveland.
At this very moment the WORLD football community is split right down the center on who the Rams will take after giving up a kings ransom in picks, not to mention putting the entire organization's jobs on the line.
Out of that football community, I haven't heard much, or any, negative comment towards the move. That tells me that both prospects are worthy of being the right pick.
So that being said, why isn't the QB starved Browns the right spot for one of these talented young men?

In the trade back scenario you describe; I would only trade back with the intent to still be able to draft Ronnie Stanley, he would be my goal/target.

I think he can make all the throws, but has a steeper learning curve than the other two QBs. Andy Dalton came from the same offense and started immediately with some success, so it can be done. I think he can be good, but there is more risk than there is with Goff.

I was thinking that way for a long time, eo. I wanted Wentz-period.

Then we signed RGIII. Now, I think having Wentz and RGIII would hurt both. Both will need all the reps they can get. I think RGIII is back close to where he was physically when he was drafted (he may be better from NFL strength training). He was a stud prospect then, and I think he can be one now. He's still only mid-20s. If he blows up, we can franchise tag him. We have leverage on another contract for at least 4 years if we want him. Surround him with weapons. Give him the best chance to succeed. Don't have another QB competition where everybody loses. Get one guy as ready as possible.

Yep, just differing opinions. I think these guys are just two more of the same. Rather than waste our normal #22 spot on a QB, we'll be wasting the #2 overall spot this time. The Rams made the big trade up more because of market demand than what they think the QB's are worth.

All that being said, I think Hue probably knows QB's better than I do and if we take one, I'll be okay with it.

I just think we are continuing our normal cycle of mistakes though and overvaluing guys simply because we have a need.

If we move back past 7 and Treadwell is still there I would be sooo happy.

Cheers!

Dallas is going to Cal this weekend to have a private workout with Goff.

Jared Goff will work out for Jerry Jones this weekend

Posted by Josh Alper on April 15, 2016, 6:53 AM EDT

BERKELEY, CA - OCTOBER 31: Jared Goff #16 of the California Golden Bears in action against the USC Trojans at California Memorial Stadium on October 31, 2015 in Berkeley, California. (Photo by Ezra Shaw/Getty Images)
Getty Images

There’s a decent chance that Cal quarterback Jared Goff is off the board two picks into this month’s draft, a scenario that would put him out of reach of the Cowboys unless Dallas trades up from the No. 4 spot in the order.

The Cowboys will spend this weekend arming themselves with information about Goff should the chance to select him arise. Owner Jerry Jones and others from the team’s brass will work Goff out in Berkeley.

“[Goff] operates in a pretty place,” Jones said, via ESPN.com. “I like to have that excuse to go out there. No, seriously, we are going to go do a workout this weekend. It’ll be Goff, out there before their spring game.”

The Cowboys have sent a variety of messages about the possibility of drafting a quarterback in the first round as they’ve alternately talked about the chance to groom a quarterback behind Romo and their belief that Romo has years to go before he’ll need to be replaced as the starter.

Jones focused on the latter in the most recent round of comments, citing Brock Osweiler’s departure from Denver as a free agent this offseason as a potential outcome that offers little return to the team.

“I can give you a real scenario where it can be real problematic if we do what we want to do, and that’s have Romo play fairly injury free and uninterrupted for the next three, four, five years,” Jones said. “Let’s just go three, four, five. If he plays uninterrupted, then you’ve got a problem if you’ve picked a quarterback this year because you don’t know what you got really at a time when he may be entering the markets. There’s an example of that this year, and so that’s one of the things you weigh if you’re in our shoes about whether to get interested in a quarterback this early in Romo’s career.”

At the very least, the Cowboys need to find a backup for Romo that leaves them in better hands should injury strike again in the future. The fourth pick might be early for such an addition, although the point could be moot before Dallas is on the clock.

This is true, however, I think that if we have a kid available, who we think is a franchise level QB, then we have to take him. The position is just too hard to fill, and a great QB makes everyone else's job so much easier.

We had competent QB play last year, in some cases. However, if we have a guy who can transcend mere competency, well, that is the key in the NFL.

Dream scenario, trade 2 for 4, 34, 67... Dallas takes Wentz/Goff.

SD takes Tunsil

Trade 4, 67 for 7 and 2017 1st. Kelly outbids philly for Lynch.

JAX takes Jack

TEN trades up for Ramsey

Trade 7, 65 for 10, 40. New York takes Elliot ahead of Philly.

Philly takes Hargreaves

Tampa takes Bosa

We take Treadwell at 10 and still have 32, 34, 40, all of our Day 3 picks, and SF's 1st rounder in 2017.

Decent chance those 2nd round picks could be Mackenzie Alexander, Chris Jones, and Vonn Bell.

IF we don't like any of the QBs, and this happens, I'll be like:

Completely unsolicited draft/QB philosophy-opinion-

During the draft there is no such thing as a franchise QB. It seems like empty rhetoric to me. If they could identify 'franchise' QBs in the draft the hit rate would be much higher then ~40%.

The 'franchise QB' is a myth. I view the 'franchise QB' as label that can only be earned through play in the NFL. Its a myth sold by the same folks selling the 'passing league' myth or the 'rbs/run game doesn't matter' myth. The only difference is the franchise QB myth is all encompassing. The myth lets bad coaches, bad GMs and bad franchise off the hook. The myth goes like this...even though my franchise is properly built if we just draft a QB high enough in the draft THEN that QB will make everything better. Coaches will coach better, GM will scout/sign better, owners won't meddle etc.

Don't get me wrong there are good QB prospects in every draft. But the physical and talent differences between the QBs aren't appropriately represented by the difference in where they're drafted. The difference between a QB drafted in the 1st round and UDFA signee isn't as different as the 7 or more rounds that separates them. Bill Walsh said/wrote something that I believe is as true today as when he said it: few people know how to evaluate the QB position and fewer still know how to coach it.
I think Hue is one of those people that can, and in his judgment I would trust. One of the benefits of having someone that knows is that they don't have to pay the premium prices for QBs. Maybe he takes Wentz/Goff or maybe not. Maybe he takes a QB to develop later and decides to build a team that can actually support a "franchise QB".

QB success, it seems to me is more a function of the team, talent and coaching and organization around them. And if you draft your 'franchise' QB before the rest of the franchise is ready to support them...well history suggest to me that they're gonna fail. To have a "franchise" QB; first their must be a stable franchise in place. AND at first (1-3 years) the TEAM supports the QB (grooming). Everything must be about the QB. Then as the QB matures and hopefully develops then THEY support the franchise.


TLDR-
Drafting a QB early doesn't ensure they become a franchise QB.
Trust in Hue. Build a team that can support a franchise QB.

I don't believe it's any more of a myth than a shut down CB, or a sack specialist is a myth. I don't believe you can isolate any one description of a single position a myth unless you include them all.

I will say you're right in terms of predicting what a player will evolve into. But I believe what you are speaking of, is what the people doing the drafting are hoping they will turn into in the NFL.
I mean you don't draft a QB in the top 5 NOT believing he will be a franchise QB.

You don't draft a LT in the top 5 thinking he WON'T be a stud LT. You don't draft a CB in the top 10 thinking he WON'T be a shut down CB. So I believe if you're going to discount the term "franchise QB" to the myth category, you must also include a myriad of terms that describe other positions.

Let's face it, if you're looking at percentages, I highly doubt you'll find shut down CB's, game changing WR's, stud sack specialists or dominating LT's as having any higher rated than franchise QB.

All of the positions I've named are projections. All of them are dependent on coaching, hard work and ability. If one of those projections are a myth, they all are.

Well sure, if I draft Cardale Jones #2 doesn't make the chance of him becoming a Franchise QB any better. Obviously there are other tangibles that are taken into account.

Not sure what your random essay was suppose to accomplish but I don't think there are many people who claim Goff or Wentz to be sure fire Franchise QB's. Most recognize they have the potential but obviously they would need to perform on the field.

Any player taken high has a bust factor, we have a fair share of Braylon Edwards, Trent Richardsons, Justin Gilberts as well.

I am speaking specifically of the "franchise QB" term. Those other terms are very different and mean something specific in terms of skillset and those traits can be readily identified and translate independent of the team around them.

The term "franchise QB" is widely used right now and very few media/fans ever qualify by saying 'potential' franchise QB. If they did the truth of the matter is that any QB in any round and including UDFA can become a "franchise" QB. You're not going to find a 'shutdown' corner that runs a 5.00--40 or a pass rush specialist that isn't explosive. But you can find a "franchise" QB that doesn't fit certain measurable. But I'm getting off the point.

The mantra you hear now, is you have to get Goff/Wentz because they're franchise QBs and without a franchise QB you can't win.

I don't see that same rhetoric with any other position.
And at the same time the draft media are hyping up the QBs they also admit that QBs are "pushed" up in the draft because of their position. All the other positions are evaluated and ranked and drafted based on the findings. QBs are evaluated/ranked then they're drafted ahead of other positional players with higher grades due to being a QB.

Most draft media admit that Tunsil, Ramsey, Jack etc all "grade" out higher then the QBs but (especially now) everyone expects the QBs to go 1-2.

QBs success/failure is largely determined by factors external to the prospect themselves.