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Look.............this is allowed and apparently encouraged:



But saying who you want in advance of the draft is not allowed.

Yeah, I think we see the group pretty much the same. If Hartline, Hawkins and Gabriel enter the season as the top WRs it not what anyone wants.

I imagine there will some shuffling along that OL before training camp/week 1.

You think Erving can't play at all (bust) or just struggled as rookie? Given the curve OL face and the move to center, maybe there's chance for becoming at least a decent center. Plus, he's a 1st round pick so they're probably gonna give him many chances.

Do you really think they're gonna trade Thomas? He's the lone blue chip player on the roster and he plays a position vital to having a functional passing game.
The other moves, I understand but losing Joe on top would basically equal the complete dismantling of arguably the best unit on the team.

(Long reply).....Full disclosure: I am a fan of analytics and Best Player Available approach to the draft. Part of my fascination with the Browns is because the current organization is embracing analytics, not just sprinkling/using some like some teams.

Imho part of the reason to let Mack and Schwartz walk is because the team has a multitude of needs. Re-signing them would cost serious money AND letting them walk gain draft picks for next year's draft.

But, in the immediate short term it does seem like digging a hole to fill a hole. This could be its own discussion though i.e. (the difference in performance/value/cost from Mack to their replacement).
The Browns OL last year was rated 5th by PFF and the team won 3 games? The thought could be $ on OL doesn't = Wins the as much as $ spent on other positions.

In my view if an OL is the best player available at a given draft position then I would want them to pull the trigger. I did a mock on the firstpick website (http://www.first-pick.com/) and came up with this haul:
Your Picks:
Round 1 Pick 2: Laremy Tunsil, OT, Ole Miss (A+)
Round 2 Pick 1: Josh Doctson, WR, TCU (A-)
Round 3 Pick 2: Nick Martin, C/OG, Notre Dame (A)
Round 4 Pick 1: Jordan Payton, WR, UCLA (B)
Round 4 Pick 40 (COMP): Jihad Ward, DE, Illinois (A)
Round 5 Pick 2: Joe Schobert, OLB/ILB, Wisconsin (B-)
Round 5 Pick 33 (COMP): Tyvis Powell, FS/CB, Ohio State (C+)
Round 5 Pick 34 (COMP): KJ Dillon, SS, West Virginia (A)
Round 6 Pick 1: Keith Marshall, RB, Georgia (A-)
Round 7 Pick 2: Brandon Allen, QB, Arkansas (B)

I picked those 2 OL b/c in view they were the BPA at the pick.

I wouldn't target a RB either.

But again, for me it would depend on the BPA. If the RB grades out better then player currently on the roster then I would have to consider a RB. E.g if Zeke is available after a trade down and the Tunsil/Stanley/Bosa/Buckner/Jack/Ramsey are gone.

I see the QB situation shaking out with several different outcomes; anywhere from drafting a QB @ #2 to taking a developmental QB (or 2) anywhere a player they like represents value. 3 Lesser discussed late round developmental QBs I like are Brandon Allen, Joel Stave and Trevone Boykin.

Draft/FA targets: WR, OL (T/C), QB, TE, (I bet Hue picks up a FB)

Wanted to research a couple things first, probably post later today.

Go back in time to the last game of last year.

Keep the head coach
Keep the coordinators
Keep Manziel.

Bring everyone free agent wise back that you can.

Stay at #2. Take the Runningback from Alabama.


Tell me that the whole situation doesn't look a little more promising than what we actually have in front of us.

Besides the FA caveat of "everyone you can".. Whatever that means..

All of that sounds terrible.. Like.. Really terrible..

i was thinking the same thing lol

I think were doing the right thing, just the way were doing it

Well glad they got rid of Manziel. He was cancer before he went on the team. Need to get a QB if RGIII is not up to speed.

Brian Hoyer was released today.



Unless this was some rebroadcast headline of a year ago. While NFL redzone was rebroacasting week 6 games.

Aight, here's my thoughts...let me know how off/crazy I am

Secondary-
CBs are decent but a healthy Joe Haden is the straw that stirs the drink. Looking at it on paper it the defense fell from 11th to 29th Football Outsiders. And one of the differences was Joe Haden. The rest of the CBs have 'talent' but need to step their game up.

S-Rahim Moore/Jordan Poyer FS are passable starters. Campbell graded out well in limited opportunity and I think he'll continue that level. I scouted/charted my campbell charting last year Campbell last year and thought he was an underrated S prospect.

TLDR: Secondary could be average to good depending on Joe Haden healthy return to form

ILBs
PFF grading is hard on ILB, so I kinda view their ILB grades on a curve. I remember Kirksey being a really good athlete at the combine and his pro day. I think he more then makes up for the loss of Robertson. Don't know much about Davis but if he's gonna complement Kirk he's gotta be willing to get downhill and take on blocks and allow Kirk to run and chase.


.....I'll hit up front 7 next

I see our problem, the orange indicates a below average starter.
Wheres the brown?

No big surprise there. The Texans signed Osweiler, and re-signed Weeden to be their backup.

Unfortunately Haden wasn't good when he was healthy last year. He got abused by Brandon Marshall in the opener.


Rahim Moore if healthy is a stop gap player, but Jordan Poyer is not a passable starter. He has the athleticism, but he is constantly out of position, which just makes him awful, this many years into his career as a backup it's not acceptable to be out of position as often as he is. Some of that was the horrible defensive scheme, but it also goes back to before that because he has been here for a while.

How Williams got a 73.9 is beyond me, he was slow and mediocre at best.

Overall we have an aging, slow secondary, which is exactly the opposite of what good teams do in this league.

Do you think Haden is someone you have to worry about from a performance standpoint even when healthy? If that's the case maybe CB becomes a priority position to address via the draft. Start shopping for Haden's replacement.

Yeah, I would have Moore over Poyer. I'm saying together with Poyer they provide near league average play at the FS mainly because league wide FS play isn't great.

Which Williams?

Thanks, this really opened my views about the secondary going forward. It would take some luck: Haden, Moore/Poyer and Campbell to be good and even then there are still questions going forward.

I think while we could use another corner, we have some young guys who should improve this season. DeSir will be in his 3rd season on the outside and we have Gaines entering year 2. K'Waun was solid when healthy. Tramon did look like he got beat over the top fairly often, but then we had very little pass rush. I'm hoping Horton is able to get more rush which will make it so the DBs don't have to cover as long. A healthy, motivated Joe should be good on one side. I think Hue/Horton can do a better job with the Motivation, and I think Joe will bring plenty of his own in an effort to prove the doubters wrong.

We need to replace Bademosi on special teams, but there are plenty of guys who can fill his role later in the draft.

I'm not sure what we'll get in Rahim Moore, but here's an interesting read:

PFF: Secret Superstar, Rahim Moore

Rahim Moore was pretty good for the Broncos. It takes a lot for a team to cut you when they don't get any real benefit from it (which is what the Texans did).

I am hoping for a bounce back. I am not optimistic.

I'm not quite ready to give up on Gilbert...yet! Hopefully Horton can straighten the man out to justify where he was picked in the draft...

I look at him like Gordon. Expect nothing and if he "shows up" great.

Fair enough. I perceive Gilbert's issue as one of attitude rather than an addiction (or stupidity) as is Gordon's.

What some forget is that its all new offensive and defensive schemes. We are starting over again. Those rookies we groomed under pettine are now most likely going to end up as fodder. Of course some will show improvement just from it being a better scheme.

At number 2 I would tack Tunsil and play him at RT and groom him to replace Joe. Let RG3 have a shot to show he is healed up and ready to score behind the best offensive line he has ever played behind. Let's hope our first round pick at center while playing his natural position can prove his worth. We end up with best o-line ever and a very talented QB for the first time in a very long time.

Then you target the best WR you can find in the draft and go get him. Hopefully a big tall WR who is fearless and has good hands. Next few years you just keep filling up the WR corps with big tall physical WRs till you have a good 3 or 4 quality WR that are great in short yards and redzone. RG3 should be able to find those type of WR all day long.

I think our 2 main HB are good enough. I would love to see us sign some offensive lineman that can run fast to play a FB designated blocker. You just leave him to pick up whatever blitzer comes at RG3 and keep his confidence up. 2wr, 1te,1fb, and our receiving HB in for 80% of our players and play the old WCO style that we KNOW wins games instead of trying to be cute.

IF we take CB first then I draft a QB because RG3 will just be ruined after blitzers murder him from the right side. In this scenario I would love if we could trade back up to get the QB I said from the beginning I wanted the most...Paxton Lynch. Let RG3 take the beating until we can fix the problem at RT while we groom Lynch.

poor guy has a sleep disorder and no one is giving him a break....

Danny Shelton changed his number to 55.

I didnt buy a #71, but this is one reason why I buy jerseys from china.

Haden is someone I will keep a close eye on this season. He really hasn't been Joe Haden since he signed his contract to be honest. I'm not sure how much he was injured at any given time. I am concerned.

I meant Tramon Williams.



Yeah, look at what the Steelers did last year. Troy was old and slow, albeit a hall famer he was a liability. Young and athletic is the trend of a good defense. Unless Justin Gilbert does a complete 180, we have Haden who was never a fast guy, coming off injuries. We have an old and slow Tramon Williams and KWaun Williams.

That's a questionable group if you ask me. Sadly it is probably a "Strength" but where would it rank in the league, probably middle of the road at best.

Improve the pass rush, Aka find one, and the DBs will look a hell of a lot better..

I think we agree.

Haden is the key/ Joe balls out the CBs group could be good. Joe plays like last year then its a below average group. Joe plays average the group should be middle of the road.

Thanks for posting your thoughts on the defensive secondary and inside linebackers. My thoughts:

Corners: Very poor. Exploited over and over and over again last year.

Haden: Hasn't been the same since he signed big contract. Known friend of Manziel and Gordon. Wonder what that means? Got burned repeatedly before injuries last yea. The good news is he had his best year under Horton, but then again, I think that was his contract year.

T. Williams: Probably the worst starting cb in the league. Got burned more times than firewood last year. Old, lost a step or two. Worthless.

K. Williams: I like him in the nickle. He competes.

Gilber: Worthless. Would rather sleep than study or work. Pffftttt....

Desir: Terrible last year. Gets beat at the LOS. Guys get under his pad level, shuck him, and are gone.

Gaines: Did any corner in the league get burnt for big plays [percentage wise] than this guy?

Corner back is a huge need for the Browns. I was hoping we would go after one in FA and one in the draft.

Safeties: Way below average.

Poyer is a dime guy. Nothing more. The Browns will miss Gipson a lot. He was young and good. Horton called him his MVP when he was here a few years ago.

Campbell: Aggressive. Can hit. Undisciplined. Young, so who knows...........

Moore: Was benched by Houston after about 7 games or so. He gets fried more than chicken.

ILBers: Pathetic group. Lost their two best players and they weren't good to begin w/as a unit.

Kirskey: Aggressive, but runs past plays. Not stout enough to take on blockers. Takes poor angles to pass receivers in the flat. He is a special teams guy.

Davis: Don't know enough about him to comment.

The DL and OLBs are not as bad. I'll comment after you make your next post about them.

Btw............just in case anyone forgot, the Browns defense gave up 30 or more points in 9 games last year and gave up in the high 20s in a few others.

People will blame the coaching staff, but that same coaching staff did pretty well in Buffalo. I am not praising the coaching staff, but there are real problems w/the talent on this defense.

I agree the defense was terrible last season. But, I do have more hope for this unit to approve that the Offense. Why? I think there is more talent on Defense than Offense. Also, I feel scheme was as much to blame as talent.

In 2 seasons with the old coaching staff I rarely seen the OLB's set an edge in the run game. How can a defense stop the run if they do not set an edge and force runners inside or to go wider than the play calls for.

Also, there was little to no pass rush. Kruger had a great year in 2014 and very seldom rushed in 2015. He was openly frustrated at the end of last season and I do not blame him.

The secondary will only be as good as the pass rush. Our's got exposed but many many times our corners were relied upon to run with crossing routes which is very tough to do unless the pass rush forces offenses to throw early.

There is enough talent in the front 7 to play the run better and to pressure the QB better than what we saw last season.

I have been very disappointed in Justin Gilbert (I did not want him when we drafted him but I still thought he would be a better player than he has been so far). I would like to see him move to FS and use his 4.4 speed as a center fielder in our secondary.

Barkavious Mingo is another player I have yet to give up on. I think Ray Horton coming back could be the best thing to happen to him. I think him and Gilbert have way to much athletic ability to not be effective. I am hoping Horton can turn these two defensive liabilities into defense strengths. Using their much needed speed to improve overall team speed on defense.

Agreed. Which is why, if the Rams take our QB choice at #1 and if we don't trade down then I think we should grab DeForest Buckner at #2. I don't think he will be available if we drop to #8 or lower.




Totally agree.

This thread is what they mean by PURE FOOTBALL. I don't know how right you guys are but really interesting reads on our D.

I agree with your thoughts on our LBs. We need a legit stud LB, it would help our entire defence a lot.

Then again, we need help in a lot of places.

Haden- Very good in press coverage but was never the best athlete. He seems to live off of film study. That's great until you are hobbled and have to stay off the Adderall.

T williams - I give the former Pro Bowl corner more credit than most of you. He's an above average 2nd corner, but asking him to be the main guy is too much. We did overpay him and I'd prefer we get a younger, hungrier guy in there, but he's not a guy that's a weakness.

K Williams - Is better than Skrine in this stage of his career. Will never be more than a Nickle corner and neither will Skrine.

Gilber - Waste of Oxygen.

Desir - Physically better than most of our DB's but mentally slower. Just needs lots and lots of coaching.

Gaines - I agree he might need to try FS. I don't think he has any hope of being a corner.

Poyer - I see both good and bad, but I do see progress each game. I don't think he'll be our answer at FS, but I think he'd be a good utility DB. "He's got his stinkin mind right."

Campbell - He is very close to being our enforcer. I am looking forward to see how he develops. He is there athletically, he just needs coached up on the mental side of the game.

Moore - Given the extent of his injury, I'm not writing him off yet. He actually might wind up being a steal. If not, we didn't invest much.

Kirksey - Disappointing. He reacts well, he just doesn't think well. He can run himself out of the play at 100 miles an hour. He's never going to eat blockers, so he has to think faster than the guys blocking him. He doesn't, and I'm blaming coaching right now. He seems smart enough and wanting to put in the effort.

Davis - tries hard and achieves above his ability. Will get lots of tackles past the line of scrimmage.

I get what your saying about this being the same coaching staff that did well in Buffalo Verse, but defensively this wasn't even close to what they did a year before with the Browns. They were a bunch of square pegs forced into round holes this year. A Bryant and Kruger were raped by this coaching staff and made to pretend to be cover guys and were the only uninjured weapons that we had to rape. The rest of the guys were shuffled into unfamiliar roles to fill in for unreplaceable guys.

I'm curious what do you think changed between the 2014 defense and the 2015 defense?

I site I trust for a quick and dirty snapshot of a defense is Football Outsiders and they had the 2014 defense rated #11 with a pass defenses rating #2.

And here's Ourlads.com OCT 2014...starters on D

RDE 92 Bryant, Desmond----still on team
NT 71 Rubin, Ahtyba----replaced with Shelton
LDE 98 Taylor, Phil----?
LOLB 99 Kruger, Paul
LILB 53 Robertson, Craig----Kirksey (whom I like as a run and chase WILB)
RILB 56 DANSBY, KARLOS----Davis w/Jets thumper style 'Buck'
ROLB 51 Mingo, Barkevious---still on squad+Nate Orchard
LCB 23 Haden, Joe 10/1 26---still on squad injuried/decline in 2015?
SS 31 Whitner, Donte U/SF---Campbell (scouted this kid, excited to watch him play)
FS 39 Gipson, Tashaun CF12---Gone
RCB 22 Skrine, Buster 11/5---Tramon Williams

The personnel has changed some, but some key personnel are still there...Haden, Kruger, Bryant, going from Rubin to Shelton a push?, Craig to Kirksey push?, Dansby to Davis push in run game dip in pass,Whitner to Campbell decline but save a lot of money and Campbell could be starting caliber player (I'm biased tho), Gipson--Moore I think that's this is difference huge decline.

I've graded some film w/ a friend of mine and matched it against PFF and found their usually not to far off. So I trust PFF, although I admit they 1 of my gripes with them was how they graded secondary play.

So I gotta ask is your view of Tramon Williams hyperbolic or do you really think he's that bad? PFF has him as league average.

Damn, gotta run-
Good convo though.

In my opinion the biggest change was that Pettine ran the defense in 2014 and O'neil ran it in 2015.

I actually think that we had more talent last year than the year before.

We also had a ton of injuries last year that affected things, but we still didn't play as well in week 1 of 2015 as we did in week 1 of 2014.

"Shelton's should increase as a rookie going into his 2nd year.
Yup, there could be 2nd season uptick/growth."

Last thing fat boy needs is more "growth". He damned near ate his way out of the league last year. He needs to lose a lot of weight. Stay under 330lbs not 430. We shall see if he actually worked out this off season or if he ate out this off season.... Fat and slow isn't going to cut it.

Not trying to obstinate or anything, but didn't he say he was a 8% body fat? If that is the case then he cannot be fat and slow. He may be big and slow or just slow, but at 8% BF he is in no way, shape, or form fat.

No. Erving said he lost 8% of his body fat.

Thank you. That's what I thought I remembered too but then wasn't sure and couldn't find it.

Okay, that is not how I read it, but I've been wrong far more than right so I'll go with it. However, saying that if he lost 8% body fat he wouldn't he have had to have lost more than 15 lbs? Seems to me 8% is quite a bit of BF for only 15 lbs.