DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2016 NFL Season 2016 NFL Draft Drafting at #8 - what is your revised hope for the Browns?

That's a fair point.

I do think that the draft is risky. Schwartz was a known commodity. I also think that the team has a lot of holes and it would have been nice to address those holes w/out having to deal w/new ones.

Look..........I have supported some of the moves the FO has made. I supported the RGIII signing and I love the trade down from 2.

I try and judge each move individually rather than blindly saying each one is good or bad.

I agree. I was just pointing out that it might not be as simple as re-signing MS as it seems to be. I agree with ya, I wish we could have kept him, but we didn't. I hope we have a good plan.

Honestly Eo, I think by the time this new regime of Sashi, Depo, Berry and Jackson took over, it was probably too late to save these guys (with the possible exception of schwartz, we still don't have the whole story there).

I think they all made up their minds way ahead of time. (JMO) Mack probably made his mind up 2 years ago. again, JMO.

Th Schwartz thing drives me crazy, because, while we don't know the whole story, we do know there were terms that both sides could live with. Now, people are talking about OL with the first pick. We have a plan to replace Mack (dunno if it'll work, but it was already in place). As Vers said, we cannot afford to be creating new holes while we try to fill old ones. And people who want a tackle now and to trade Joe Thomas, geez, how does that help? Rebuilding is one thing, but we were 7-9 two years ago. We don't have to start rebuilding for 2025.

The Browns must get an impact player with their first pick. I don't like the options at 8 very much, so my preference would be to trade down, but not lower than 15.

Guys I like:
Laquon Treadwell
Ezekial Elliott
V Hargreaves

Guys I don't like:
Buckner
Bosa
M Jack

Guys I could live with:
Tunsil

If no trade down and all were available (except Goff Wentz,Ramsey), my pick: Ezekial Elliott. Will be an impact player in the NFL - 3 down back. Run the ball and stop the run. My second option is Treadwell.

j/c

For posters who are disturbed by the idea of drafting OT at #8 or perhaps after another trade down. Consider the prospects of drafting Buckner at #8. To me that would be a huge mistake. I don't understand how he's rated as high as he is. OL get into his pads way to easily. He doesn't defeat single blocks and if you double him, it's over. I don't see the value.

Can somebody post some video links that will demonstrate this guy impacting a game? Michigan St. ain't it and neither is the TCU game.

Just a what if:

What if Sashi was all set to re-sign Schwartz, then Hue comes into his office and says that he reviewed the film and doesn't think Schwartz can do the things that his offense needs a RT to do?

Like what? Block?

LOL.........just messin' w/ya.

Maybe Schwartz, like George Costanza on Seinfeld, looked for too long at Saschi's wife's cleavage. Its like the sun, George. You see it, you get a sense of it, and you LOOK AWAY."

get a good look costanza?!

I know you're just mess'in

But perhaps he wants a Rt that is a true road grader type blocker and doesn't think Swartz is strong and tough enough. Maybe he wants a RT that can pull and doesn't think he can or ...

These two things do not go together.

j/c

I'm pretty confident that if the the guys making the decisions have seen what I have of Buckner there is no way we draft him. I've watched three Draftbreakdown cutups of him now, Mich. St., TCU and Washington. I think I saw three maybe four tackles for loss in all of that footage. He has to be the worst top ten draft prospect of the year.

He displays no outside pass rush ability. He is usually blocked by the OT alone and gets neutralized. His pad level allows guys to get into him and steer him out of plays. Or he overuns plays. He does not get pressures. His backside pursuit is of no consequence. Then they move him inside and he continues to under perform. I can't tell if he's one gaping or two gaping on the interior what I can tell you is unless the play is being run up the back of the guard/center tandem who are blocking him he is a non-factor. He doesn't get off of blocks and he displays very little range.

A prospect with better production is Jonathan Bullard of Florida. At least he sets a decent edge in the run game. He is a work in progress rushing the passer from the outside. But his interior pass rush is very well developed. He does make plays in the offense's backfield. And guess what, Bullard will be available in the 2nd round.

There are 8 Offensive Tackles rated with first or second round grades...

LAREMY TUNSIL - LSU
RONNIE STANLEY - NOTRE DAME
JACK CONKLIN - MICHIGAN STATE
TAYLOR DECKER - OHIO STATE
JASON SPRIGGS - INDIANA
GERMAIN IFEDI - TEXAS A&M
SHON COLEMAN - AUBURN
LE'RAVEN CLARK - TEXAS TECH

There should be a very good OT available in the second round. I do not expect the Browns to have to take one with the number 8 pick.. or even with a lower first round pick, if they were to trade down.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-foot...ars-draft-class

Phil Simms makes a strong case for Paxton Lynch. Is he worth the 8th pick?


Phil Simms knows a thing or two about playing quarterback. Before joining the announcing team at CBS in 1998, Simms spent 14 years as a quarterback for the New York Giants.

The CBS announcer has been keeping his eye on this year's crop of quarterbacks and like most people, he's a big fan of Carson Wentz. However, unlike most people, Simms doesn't see Jared Goff as the second-best quarterback in the draft.

During a recent interview with Fox Sports Radio, Simms revealed the two quarterbacks at the top of his draft board.

"The most talented quarterback in the draft I think is Carson Wentz," Simms told host Colin Cowherd.

It's easy to see why Simms likes Wentz: Both came out of a small school. Simms was a first-round pick out of Morehead State in 1979.

Anyway, let's get back to to Simms' list.

"I think the second-most talented quarterback in the draft is Paxton Lynch. Then Jared Goff would be my No. 3," Simms said. "But it all depends on how quick you want them to play, what you're trying to accomplish, and of course more than anything, the offense you're going to run… Physically, talent-wise, what I see the NFL becoming, that's how I would rate the top three."

So what does Simms like about the former Memphis quarterback?

"I think he's extremely talented," Simms said. "I think he has borderline-superstar qualities. His arm -- it's a good motion. One thing I always say about quarterbacks, if you've got a good motion, you can see they're national throwers, they can get better in the NFL. In other words, he can improve his quality of throwing. I've seen it with many, many guys. Ben Roethlisberger, I saw it with Aaron Rodgers, I see it with Tony Romo. Tom Brady this past year maybe threw the football better than he's ever thrown it in his career physically."

While Goff got noticed for playing at a Pac-12 school and Wentz got noticed for playing on a team that won a national championship this year, Lynch spent his time playing in the American Athletic Conference, something that likely didn't help his draft stock, according to Simms.

"If he had been at a bigger school, people would be crazy (over him), because you'd have seen him more, the perception would change," Simms said. "But I think he's going to be a good underneath the center quarterback. He's a very good play-action guy. His athletic ability is outstanding. He just makes plays right and left. Whoever gets him, his talent will show right away."

Lynch actually seems to be one of the biggest mysteries in the draft.

Of our five mock drafts here at CBSSports.com, the Memphis quarterback is slotted to go anywhere from No. 7 (to the 49ers) to No. 31 (to the Broncos). It's worth noting that all five mock drafts have Lynch going in the first round.

Simms' rankings probably won't sit well with Vernon Adams. The Oregon quarterback says he's the second-best QB in the draft, ahead of both Lynch and Goff.

We should do the opposite of whatever Phil Simms says.

Why?

Do you know more about football than he does?

I was mostly joking because he is a horrible announcer.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/02/phil-simms-not-sold-on-andrew-luck/

J/c...

Revised 'want' for me is too pass on Jack after more info about his injury is coming to light. Trade back for Treadwell or take Elliott.

No o-lineman.

Here is the PFF draft profile for Oregon defensive end DeForest Buckner, which incorporates PFF’s college grades and scouting intel from our team of analysts. To see all of PFF’s 2016 scouting reports, click here.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20...kner-de-oregon/

Position rank: 1
Overall rank: 2

Position fit:

3-4 defensive end. Could do some work on the edge as a pass rusher, but ideal 3-4 end.

Stats to know:

No. 1 overall grade among interior defensive linemen, top pass rushing grade and eighth-highest grade against the run. Led all interior defensive linemen with 951 snaps, including two separate games in which he played over 100 snaps.

What he does best:

• Can get low and move blockers in the run game
• Strong when taking blockers on head up and moving them backwards to clog running lanes
• Has good vision as a run defender, finds the ball
• Big tackle radius allows Buckner to make plays up and down the line of scrimmage
• Makes plays on the backside of run plays. Quick enough to beat backside cutoffs against zone schemes, can penetrate and blow up plays when given favorable shade
• Quick hands allow him to create pressure against guards
• Can use length to bull rush defensive linemen and push pocket. Reminds of Chandler Jones a bit from style standpoint, even though they are different sizes
• Maintained his national-leading production despite playing the most snaps of any interior defensive lineman
• Good size allows him to bat passes at line of scrimmage. Tied for third in nation with five in 2015.

Buckner Steve

Biggest concern:

• Does not anchor well against double teams. Power teams can create movement at the point of attack
• Part of his inability to anchor is due to size, will play with high pad level at times and get moved off the spot
• Can run right at him

Player comparison:

Arizona defensive end Calais Campbell. From both a production and style perspective, Buckner and Campbell both win in similar ways, with the only difference being that Campbell looks stouter against double teams in the run game. It would not be surprising to see similar production from Buckner throughout his career.

Bottom line:

Buckner’s two-year production is tough to ignore. He can be a playmaker in the run game and as a pass rusher, most likely in a 3-4 scheme, but he can move around the formation to provide some versatility.

Nice report. Quite simply, I didn't see those attributes on display when I watched him. I certainly didn't see every game but he consistently underwhelmed when I looked at him. He must have studded out in the games I haven't seen.

3 cutups told you all you need to know about the guy? I think I'll go with people who do this as a profession. Or maybe myself, who watched more than just 3 cutups.

He displays no passrush, but yet as a 3-4 DE had 10.5 sacks this year. My goodness, he's horible.

I'll give you he does get too high off the snap at times.

Do you think teams would leak bad information about Jack with hopes that he might fall to them?

If the doctors say Jack's knee is good, then he should not even be available for our pick.

You're entitled to your opinion. I think what nails it for me is that those cut ups from randomly selected games show me all the deficiencies he's known to have and very little of the strengths he's supposed to have. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt against MSU. But when I looked at TCU and Washington and saw the same non impact player that sold it for me.

You don't know me and I don't know you. So let me just say I trust what I see and I think for myself.

Generally, I don't like comparisons of the sort I'm going to make now. Buckner seems like a physically more impressive version of Dion Jordan that last Oregon DE who was supposed to translate his "skills" to the NFL. We all know how that worked out. Actually I can't think of a single Duck front seven player that has done much in the league of late.

There hasn't been very many of them:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/pl...er_by=career_av

Lol, not only do they play completely different positions they also have completely different body types.

If you're going for the easy school based comparison why not choose someone who at least plays the same position and has a similar body type?

Arik Armstead
6'7--292lbs 5-tech
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20...-rookie-season/

17. Arik Armstead, DI, San Francisco 49ers

2014 PFF College grade: +20.3 (27th-highest interior defender in class) FYI -Buckner +73.0 was the highest-graded interior defender in the nation — some distance clear of Sheldon Day in second — and his +73.0 is the highest figure we have seen across two years, as he beat Henry Anderson and Leonard Williams from last season out of sight.

2015 PFF NFL grade: +15.1 (25th-highest interior defender in NFL)

Obviously impressive physically, Armstead is an interesting case study in whether or not it’s better to return to school or head to the NFL. He flashed enough on 384 snaps as a rookie that everyone should be excited about what he could become, with 38 total pressures recorded as a rookie. His 12.3 pass-rushing productivity rating was the highest of any 3-4 defensive end who played at least 155 pass-rushing snaps in 2015.
-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/deforest-buckner?id=2555275

Sources Tell Us "His comp is going to be Calais Campbell or Arik Armstead but I think he's more talented coming out than either one of those guys. He's twice the player Armstead was coming out." -­ NFC Regional Scout

NFL Comparison Calais Campbell

Bottom Line Headed into this season, Buckner was a traits prospect who flashed with quickness, strength and overall athleticism, but he put those traits together in 2015. Buckner has the body type of a classic 3-­4 defensive end who can control the point of attack with length and power, but he has above average pass rush potential for that position which figures to push him into the early stages of round one. Buckner has similar power to former teammate Arik Armstead, but is a much better pass rusher and has a chance to become a dominant force in the NFL.

The clips below are from the PFF article on Buckner linked below:
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2016/02/23/draft-why-pff-is-obsessed-with-deforest-buckner/

You deride my comparison to Jordan who was an edge player at Oregon but then you site stats about Armsteads interior defensive efficiency. Hmmm.

I've stated my dislike for Buckner with no subtlety. I'll temper it by saying he's draft-able just not as an an elite top 10 prospect. There are several other options I would consider before him. Namely, Robsinson of Al,Nkemdeche (sp), Bullard of Fl, not to mention Vernon Butler or Ogbah. Man, I'd take Jihad Ward before Buckner. These players display their skills on tape.

While I was editing this post I see that you added some footage from PFF and a chart. Thanks for the chart. The chart actually supports my contention about Buckner. 6 games were meager. Weeks 1,2,4,6,12 and 13. Five weeks were middling, weeks 7, 9, 10, 11 and the bowl game. Then he had a couple of outstanding outings.

That doesn't add up to a #8 pick for me. Look, I've said what I needed to say. If you want the last word on this...it's yours.

Wait,lol. You do realize that Buckner and Armstead play the same position right? They're both 5-tech DL i.e. INTERIOR DEFENSIVE LINEMAN. Jordan was a 248lbs an OLB/edge rusher which is a completely different position then a 5-tech DE.

Lol, writing Buckner off as merely 'draftable' talk about damning with faint praise.

To each their own, btw I'm not even an advocate of drafting him @ 8. But, if you're gonna kill a prospect at least acknowledge his actual production, even if you can't see it.

I even like some of the players on your list. But again most of them play completely different position. Also, I'm proly one of the biggest fans of Ogbah around. But how can you be hyper critical of Buckner then post about Ogbah a player who is a waif against the run? All prospects have flaws and you can make any prospect seem bad by completely ignoring their strengths (vast) in Buckner's case.

"It would be foolish for team to be wary of selecting Buckner because of the lack of success of former Ducks defender and number three overall pick Dion Jordan, as he's a completely different type of player.

[Buckner] presents a thicker frame, portending an NFL career with his hand on the ground, rather than a stand-up pass rusher like Jordan."

nfl.com


Nevermind... I guess

j/c,

Jack Conklin is still my top choice, but I wouldn't rule out either Shaq Lawson or Vernon Hargreaves.

I also think that we will trade back into the bottom of the 1st ... trageting QB or WR.

Cutups are exactly that, cutups - watch a few games, whole games (he played in more than 50) and see how he plays.

Dion Jordan - nearly 50 lbs difference and a completely different player. It is like comparing him to Haloti Ngata, afterall there's nearly 50 lb difference there too.

You are right that we don't know each other, and we're both entitled to our own opinions. And frankly I don't have a problem with yours, but 3 cutups isn't much of a sample size.

Edit: I watched the first couple minutes of the MSU one, and it needs to be said that much of the game he lined up against Jack Conklin, who will also be a first rounder this year (I've seen mocks with him going anywhere 8-25). Conklin did a great job against him, no doubt. He also seemed to struggle a bit against double teams.

I don't think it'll matter much though, I think he's gone before 8. I could see any of San Diego, Baltimore, and San Fran drafting him.

It's absolutely possible and plausible.

Medical opinions often vary, hence the the reason for a second opinion. Can we afford to take that chance?

If the doctors say his knee is good, then you have to believe them.

Its funny how after mocking Conklin to us @ 8 only hours after the news of the trade ... Now i have talking heads jumping on that bus.

You take their medical opinion into consideration and weigh the risk / reward and make an informed decision among other factors.

A physician's opinion is not an absolute.

That being said, assuming Jack is available, I don't see this FO making him their signature pick.

I think it was Rob Rang that I saw had Conklin to us.

My gut says that if Goff, Wentz, Tunsil, Ramsey, Bosa, Buckner, and either Stanley or Jack are gone, I could see a trade down for us. Miami, Chicago, and NO could all use CBs, and I have to assume TB has Stanley and Hargreaves at top of their list. Miami, Giants, and Oakland could all use RB as well, and want to jump up to ensure they get Zeke. There are several teams that need a tackle that might want to move up if Stanley is available. Moving into the 10-15 area and Conklin has to be in play. (my question is if we take him, is he RT, or OG with Bitonio moving to RT?)

I'm kind of bummed I have plans Thursday night, I'll be out by the time #8 comes around, thank goodness for smart phones.

I'd say the best OT or WR available. I think RG3 studs out if we get him a weapon or two and keep him healthy. That or trade down to around 15 grab another 1st and 2nd pick and draft Paxton and let him sit and learn for a few years. Can you imagine a 2017 draft where we have 3 first round picks? That gives you plenty of ammunition if RG3 doesn't' pan out this season to move up to #1 overall and grab whatever garbage QB comes out next season.

I still would have loved to grab tunsil at #2 and had a monster o-line and just maul people all game.

I don't either, but that's because I think he will be gone before we pick.

What is the point of having doctors if you don't trust what they say?