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^^Um okay? *shrugs*

Something that's been a priority since Savage first brought it up in 2005 is to "change the culture". That culture being the "woe is me" mindset brought on by the previous six years of constant losing. That was the first time I'd heard culture of losing mentioned as a problem. It made me think he was on to something.

When he brought it up Savage spoke as though he had a solution for it. I thought good things were finally going to happen. Unfortunately the solution was to win. I say 'unfortunately' because to win you have to do a lot of things right and that still hasn't happened yet to this day, eleven years later.

From the Owner to the FO to the Coaching to the building of the Roster so much has to be done correctly, with purpose. Each layer of responsibility must be individually competent and they all, as a group, have to be working toward the same goal by the same processes.

The goal should be winning. The processes should be healthy communication between the owner, FO and HC. But with each new regime there have been issues sticking to the goal and having unselfish communications. Each time somebody's ego gets in the way or somebody's ineptitude causes failure or the roster is simply void of enough talent to win due to the bad drafts.

So the culture of losing continues.

The solution thus far has been to change the regime. So the Browns fire one regime to start anew with another. Everything and everybody changes. New ideas, new schemes, new approaches. But the culture does not change. That may be because there is always one thing overlooked.

While each new regime starts with a fresh, new attitude the roster is filled with players who know nothing but losing. Game after game, year after year the only thing constant is the losing. The regimes have changed so many times the players become immune to pep-talks by the coaching change. They've been through it before. The new people talk a good game but the results are always the same. The players have suffered so much losing that they know no other way. They lose with this coach, they lose with that coach. They lose because it's all they know.

They lose because they expect to lose. They expect to lose because the result is always losing.

If the culture needs changed, and if winning is impossible until it does, then there is one other way to change the culture, a method so drastic a measure that no one wants to even think of it. It's a scary proposition because by the very essence of it, it's implementation demands a long, laborious campaign.

It's the only thing that hasn't been tried.


Rid the roster of players who define the culture of losing... those who expect to lose.

Good post that I agree with wholeheartedly. I think that is exactly what this new regime is doing, getting rid of the players with the bad attitudes. Mack and Gipson weren't going to stay here no matter what. MS and TB may have we don't know exactly what went on. We don't know the real attitudes of the players the way the coaches and FO do. We are not in the locker rooms. There may be other reasons why guys have been cut.

i'm sort of replying to you and sort of just clicking

I've mentioned this before to some of you, but one of my very close friends is a player on the Titans ... was drafted 3 years ago. It's sort of neat to hear some of the inside stories of an NFL team, FO, coaching staff, etc ... even though he won't share a ton with me

Anyways, he knows I'm a diehard Browns fan obviously and told me how much the rest of the league CRUSHES the franchise. Coming into the NFL all of the players were praying they wouldn't be drafted here and current players (even some Browns players) treat it like it's purgatory.

He's very good friends with one of our younger DB's (I won't share his name) and the guy freaking hates being here and hates the disfunction.

Those feelings seep into the locker room and onto the playing field. It's a defeatist/apathetic sense. It's sad.

They should be better, if nothing else than because the bar has been set EXTREMELY low. There is serious talk about us not winning a single game.

I don't ask this to be mean, but I am curious as to who these teams would be.

I think that we should get a huge infusion of talent over the course of this year's draft and next year's draft. However, right now, this team really lacks talent at most positions, especially key positions.

QB is a major question mark at this point. We can hope, but right now, no one knows what we'll get out of RG3.

We have no RB who can be relied upon to handle running the rock on an every down basis.

The OL has been decimated.

WR is a huge hole. We could add 3 receivers in the draft.

TE lacks any kind of proven depth.

On the DL, we cut loose Starks, and Armonty Bryant is suspended for at least the 1st 4 games.

ILB and OLB both have major question marks. Who knows who will emerge, if anyone, from this group.

CB is a mess right now.

Both FS and SS will be inexperienced players, at best. I think that Campbell is a legitimate NFL SS, but we desperately need a FS.

We do still have some talent, but we also have question marks everywhere. We will be plugging in young players everywhere. We will probably add 10 or so players to the roster from this draft. Maybe more. We will probably also add a couple of UDFA. Older players will be phased out. This is a complete tear down rebuild.

We have 13 players with 6 or more years experience. I would not bet money on most of them being here come opening day.

These players are:

Josh McCown
Andy Lee
Joe Thomas
Tramon Williams
Gary Barnidge
John Greco
Des Bryant
Brian Hartline
Paul Kruger
Joe Haden
Marlon Moore
Andrew Hawkins
Rahim Moore

I think that McCown could be an attractive acquisition for a QB nedy team. Andy Lee, while still a quality player, is 33 years old. Do we start over with a 33 year Punter, or do we try to find the future at this position now? Tramon Williams had a rough year last year, as did Paul Kruger. Hartline and Hawkins could both replaced with younger players. Same with Marlon Moore, who is, largely, a one trick pony. We signed Barnidge and Rahim Moore recently, so they are probably safe for this year. Joe Thomas is 31, and it would be a kindness to allow him to move to a team where he has a chance to win now. There are no guarantees for him 2 or 3 years from now. Greco is also 31. He could be on the way out as well.

My point is that any or all of these veterans, arguably among our better players, could be on their ways out the door, either before the draft, during the draft, or as injuries hit other teams.

The bulk of this team have 4 or fewer years experience. Most of these guys are major question marks. I think that Hughes, Bitonio, Kirksey, K'Waun Williams, Campbell, Duke Johnson, and Nate Orchard are guys with real NFL ability/futures. The rest have question marks. That should be our logo .... a giant question mark.

This team, right now, is a 1 win team. Maybe. We do have a lot of draft picks, so hopefully we add some starter level talent. Note, this doesn't mean guys we throw into the starting lineup because we draft them .... like we did with Quinn years ago. I mean real, legitimate, starting players, who could actually start for other teams. However, we have no idea how the new front office will perform in the draft. Hopefully they do well. However, we really have no idea. This 1 win team could become a 2 win team, or we could force players on to the field and turn this into a 0 win team.

I am curious as to what teams you have seen with as little talent as this team has? I can't think of many. Right now, we are banking on the idea that an inexperienced front office will do a good job building this team. However, they have no track record to examine. Anyway, I cannot think of many teams with this little talent, winning 3 games, or even fewer. This team needs built from the ground up. What gives you confidence that we can win even 3 games? What example(s) can you give of teams with this little talent winning anything? I am curious as to why you have confidence in the level of talent on the team at present.

I agree with Ytown here ... quite simply, I don't remember a Browns team with less talent heading into the season than this year's team.

I'd say we have a better chance to go 0-16 than we do to go 5-11

If RGIII turns his career around, and if we draft well, we could have an absolute ceiling of 4-12. Otherwise, it is somewhere between 0-16 and 3-13, I believe. This is a really, really bad team.

It's really hard to not go crazy about this comment. I think it is completely false. In fact, I think it is absurdly false. It probably can't be further from the truth.

Mack had never missed a snap in his career until the injury in 2014. He had appendicitis and played the very same week. He came back this past year and played all year. Never complained. Was a Pro Bowler multiple times. And he had a bad attitude?

Gipson battled injuries all year, but kept dragging himself out there. He even played cornerback in the last game because the secondary was depleted. He was certainly out of position, but he did so to help the team win. He made the Pro Bowl one year and Horton called him the MVP of the defense when he was here for that one year. And he has a bad attitude?

Schwartz was named the best RT by ProFootballFocus and had the fourth best pass blocking grade of ALL tackles. He had started all 48 games of his career w/out missing a snap. And he has a bad attitude?

Whit and Dansby were actually players that worked hard, made sacrifices for the team [as evidenced by by the latter's weight dramatic weight loss], tried to hold others accountable. And they had bad attitudes?

Meanwhile, guys like Gilber and Haden are still here.

Look..........you can protect the FO all you like. Go around and say "rah-rah" all day, but please don't make-up lies by bashing former players who were ACTUALLY the kind of guys this team DOES need in terms of ATTITUDE.

I couldn't agree more Vers. While I'm a supporter of the FO, the last reason that the FO were not able to re-sign these players or let some of them go had absolutely nothing to do with attitude.

I am not sure about Gilbert and Haden comment, but those others surely didn't have bad attitudes. BTW, Haden is my favorite player. I met his mom and dad at a Ravens game in Baltimore his rookie year, got a picture with them, they were really cool. Great memory there!

Lol, why would this question be mean? One team, is my very own 2012 Redskins.

FB 36 Young, Darrel CF09
RB 46 Morris, Alfred 12/6
RT 74 Polumbus, Tyler SF11
TE 83 Davis, Fred 08/2
C 63 Montgomery, Will SF08
RG 66 Chester, Chris U/Bal
LG 78 Lichtensteiger, Kory SF10
LT 71 Williams, Trent 10/1
RWR 88 Garcon, Pierre U/Ind
LWR 89 MOSS, SANTANA T/NYJ

LDE 94 Carriker, Adam
NT 96 Cofield, Barry
RDE 72 Bowen, Stephen
LOLB 91 Kerrigan, Ryan
LILB 59 FLETCHER, LONDON
RILB 56 Riley, Perry
ROLB 98 Orakpo, Brian
LCB 23 Hall, DeAngelo
SS 31 Meriweather, Brandon
FS 41 WILLIAMS, MADIEU
RCB 26 Wilson, Josh

The other teams would require more research, but we obviously see a difference in the level of talent on this current/post draft team and that is the real area where we disagree.

You'll probably dismiss this out of hand but anyway:
http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland-browns...l-focus-ranking

Jun 10, 2015

The Browns rank 14th in the NFL in rosters strength, according to PFF.


Just 2 years ago Football Outsiders and they had the 2014 defense rated #11 with a pass defenses rating #2.
2014 the Browns were #1--74.1 passer rating--#1 57.1 comp % allowed--Tied for 3rd in YPA 6.4 allowed behind the Seahawks and Bills...and they managed that ranking while only raking up 31 sacks.

Most of the core players from the 2014/2015 seasons are still on the roster. And the loses aren't so vast to "decimate the roster" especially when the FO has 6 draft picks in the top 100 to address some of the holes. And the second wave of FA in a couple months.

So, just as you stated above^^ you 'can't think of many' But that means you can think of some.


You can proclaim your opinions about the record as iron clad edicts all you like. But the NFL is truly a league of parity. Its a league where coaching and direction actually makes a big difference. The NFL is a league where you never know. Players emerge like Barnidge. Teams go from losing records to winning records every year. Scheme improvement, a couple favorable bounces, luck with injuries, rookie draft picks emerge and contribute etc...etc..etc...

From the article:



--Joe T had perhaps his best year. So, good news there.

--Bitonio regressed last year and then was injured. Phooey.

--Mack: Gone.

--Whit: Gone.

--Dansby: Gone.

Additionally, Gipson is gone and Haden played like crap last year when he did play. I still think there is something up w/that guy. No proof.....just a hunch.

Furthermore, guys like Sheard and Skrine were replaced by stiffs like Starks and T. Williams. Those two moves did not work out.

I won't dismiss the article out-of-hand, but one should probably delve into it before believing that the Browns had the 14th strongest roster last year and how that roster compares to this year's roster.

If the conversation is about the roster being so bad that can't win 3 games then there has to be some starting point for the discussion.

PFF has no dog in the fight, they're aren't vested one way or another in their analysis of the roster. I'm not saying their view is absolute fact. But its a 3rd party objective view.

I didn't dismiss it. I thought I replied objectively.

OK, let's look at that.

They showed one player as elite, that being Joe Thomas. There is no argument there.

The showed the following players as being High Quality: Hawkins, Bitonio, Mack, Haden, Dansby, and Whitner. Neither Hawkins, Haden, nor Bitonio played to that level last year. In fact, Hawkins could find himself in a fight just to make the final roster this year. Mack, Dansby, and Whitner are already gone. Haden is injured and recovering from surgery, and will not be ready to start training camp with the team. Major holes have already been shot in their appraisal.

These players are rated as "good". Schwartz is gone. Greco is still here, but is 31, and may find himself on the outside with a youth and analytics driven front office. The other players ranked as "good" include T Williams, (who was not good last year) K Williams, (who had multiple concussions/injuries) Kruger, (who was either misused, or in decline, to go along with being older) Starks, (gone) and Gipson.(gone)

They have Bowie ranked as average, but as far as I can recall, he has not made it onto the field in a regular season game for the Browns. He missed all of last year, as well as the prior year. Hartline is average, as is Benjamin.(who is also gone) Bowe? Disaster, not "average". (also gone) Gabriel was not an average player last year. (which disappointed me, because I thought that he was going to be a player on a fast rise) Gilbert? Definitely not an average player. Starks was average, and is now gone. Hughes is an average level player. Taylor is gone. So is Kitchen. Bryant is a good player, when he is healthy. Mingo? I have to give him a below average. He can cover, but he cannot set an edge, and he is weak at the point of attack. he is also a poor tackler. I do think that Kirksey has a future in the NFL as a quality starter. Whether or not he will be more than that is still up in the air. Moore is a special teamer. Dray, Housler, West, Mayle, Lenz, Cone, Browning, Lundy, Lewis, and many of the players on defense are gone. I would have to say that they were rather generous in their appraisals.

You say that most of the core players are still on the roster. Who? I think that there are huge holes on this roster. Could we get really lucky and have some of the young backups take huge steps forward? We could .... but will they? Who knows? Right now we cannot assume that players who have shown little or nothing as pros will suddenly become average to above pros.




Actually, I was being polite. I cannot think of a less talented team than this one as it is constructed right now. At this very moment, this roster is a disaster, and the best thing that can be said about it is that we have major question marks.

Now you do rightly point out that we have at least 12 picks in this coming draft, and if we draft well, we could get well in a hurry. Maybe we have a draft like the Seahawks had in 2011 and 2012, when hey added players like KJ Wright, Richard Sherman, Byron Maxwell, Bruce Irvin, Bobby Wagner, Russell Wilson, Jaye Howard, (though not for the 'Hawks) and JR Sweezey. However, despite a wealth of draft picks, we also have a wealth of inexperience in our front office. Brown showed promise with his trade of the #2 overall pick. However, if he is wrong, and the QB taken with that pick becomes a top flight QB, and we struggle to find our guy, then that trade suddenly becomes questionable, even if we wind up drafting some decent players. My point is that we have nothing to go on with this front office, other than blind faith. I find it harder and harder to have blind faith in people employed by the Browns, especially as time goes by. I have been a huge Browns homer, except for certain players, who everyone thought would be good .... until they turned out to be bums .... and people still thought they were great. (guys like Frye, Quinn, McCoy, etc)

I look at our roster right now, and I am only going to list starters right now, but here is what I see:

QB: RG3. Major question mark. I was extremely high on him coming out of college, but he has a lot to prove now.
RB: Crowell. I was also high on him, In fact, he was my "surprise UDFA" when we signed him. However, he has been up and down as a pro, and it can easily be argued that it has been more down than up.
FB: Johnson. Umm .....
WR: ????? Who know who will wind uo starting, and if any of our current guys will even be here when the season opens?
OL: Joe Thomas, John Greco, hopefully Bitonio recovers his game, and then a pair of question marks.
TE: Barnidge. He's a productive pro.

So, on offense, I have Thomas, Greco, and Barnidge as solid starters or better, Bitonio as a guy I think can get back there, and a bunch of question marks. Maybe we can count Duke as our 3rd down starter, just so I don't feel quite as bad about things.

On defense, who do we have to feel good about?

On the DL, our starters will be Bryant, Shelton, and maybe Hughes. Bryant is a pro. Shelton and Hughes have fairly sizable question marks.

LB: I like Kirksey, and think that he will be a solid starter. Other than him, we have question marks everywhere. Orchard looks like he could have real potential, but man, the rest all have major flaws, or slipped badly last year. I am singularly unimpressed with the guys we signed/claimed at LB. Maybe we get lucky .... but luck is not exactly our string suit.

The secondary has tons of questions. Campbell look like our most sure thing. The rest? Major question marks everywhere.

I see no real cause to be excited or encouraged by this roster. I think that it is, right now, quite possibly almost as bad as the expansion year roster. That roster looked like this:

QB: Couch and Detmer
RB: Karim Abdul Jabbar
FB: Marc Edwards
OT: Lomas Brown and Orlando Brown
G: Bundren and Pyne
C: Wohlabaugh
TE: Irv Smith and Mark Campbell
WR: Kevin Johnson and Chivarini
DL: Ball, Alexander, Thierry, Jurkovic
LB: Rainer, Abdullah, Jamir Miller,
Secondary: Fuller, Langham, Little, McCutcheon, Pope

That roster has some legitimate NFL talent on it, but also major holes. (just like this year's team does) A major problem for that team was that no one had every played together before, and so it just adding a player or 2 onto a team, it was building completely from scratch. Players didn't have experience in the systems the team was going to play, and the veteran leaders were missing, as everyone was in a feeling out process. Also, in all honesty, Chris Palmer was an awful hire for an expansion team. However, in all honesty,, that expansion team did have less talent that this team does .... but it's far closer than I would like .... and that's depressing.

I can't buy that the 2012 Redskins team was less talented.

Morris ran for 1600 yards and 13 TD. The Redskins had 4 useful WR, but were hurt by Davis being injured. They were 4th in scoring in the NFL.

Their defense was probably a little better than ours is right now. They were 22nd in scoring defense, and we'll be lucky to be 30th as things stand right now. They lost Arakpo, which was a huge loss.

A true football post! I don't agree w/everything, but man, that was an impressive post.

I want to add.........

ed's posts are great too. There are different opinions on the roster, but the debate is fair and reasonable. Good stuff!

Joe Thomas, Bitonio, Greco, Barnidge, Crowell, Duke Johnson,. Kruger, Haden, T. Williams, K. Williams, Shelton, D.Davis (in place of Dansby), Kirksey (in starters role), Nate Orchard.

And remember my statement was this:


Of course you don't. But, there is more pro-bowl/all-pro talent on this current roster then the 2012 Redskins roster. And you're cheating by mentioning what happened during/after the 2012. This discussion is about the roster prior to the start of the season and back then Morris was an unknown rookie 6th round RB. Your current OL even without Schwartz is much better then our 2012 OL.

I'm not gonna go player by player comp but will you grant me that the rosters are at least similar in talent level? Well that team went 10-6, won the division and went to the playoffs.
So, I'm saying that again this team certainly has holes, but there is also talent on the roster + better coaching + several picks + the 2nd wave of FA to add enough talent to win more then 3 games.

No offense, ed..............but, I think the discussion is actually about "The Team, Right Now." I also think it is about how many games we can expect them to win this upcoming year. Thus, the talent of the 2014 teams isn't quite as relevant to the discussion as one might suppose.

No taken; but that's the thread topic.
YTownBrownsFan are having a sidebar discussion about this:



I am saying that heading into the 2012 season that Redskins team had similar (actually less outside of WR) talent then this current Browns roster.

Okay man............whatever..........

Ummm...okay?

ed.............we were talking about whether this team was a 6 win team as you and Peen claimed or a 3 win team as guys like me and YTown claimed.

Thus, we MUST examine this year's roster.

Okay?

You think we got 3 wins in us? We need a heck of a draft to manage that.

That's your problem Verse, you are always too positive about this team you homer!

Nice.

You know what is crazy, though? I wonder what the odds are of winning 2 games or less? Shoot, what are the odds of winning 1 game? 0 games?

I'm sure there is information out there that reveals those odds, but I sure as hell ain't looking it up. LOL

It just seems that it would be very rare for a team to not win a game or just one game. Heck, even only winning two games would seem to be more of anomaly than winning 13 or 14. I wonder if that is true?

The Titans are our best shot. This roster just has too many holes to expect too much.

We have very different concepts of "core players", evidently.

Crowell is so-so. 706 yards, 3.8 yards/carry, and 4 TD does not make a core player as far as I am concerned.

Duke Johnson, right now, is a role player. He is a receiver out of the backfield, but running the ball is still a struggle for him.

Kruger looked like a core player 2 years ago. He rushed the passes. He set the edge. Last year? 27 tackles. 2.5 sacks. No fumbles forced or recovered. No passes defended. No INT. To me, that's about as far from being a core player as can be.

Haden struggled all of last year. He looked like anything but a capable starter last year. Core? he looked like a guy who would be lucky to make the team.

T Williams also struggled. Teams threw against him at will. That's not a core player to be.

K Williams is a capable slot corner, but he missed a lot of time last year with injuries. Part of being a core player, to me, is being available every week. I don't say that he "should have" played, but a guy who is incapable of playing is no help to the team.

Shelton is a guy right now. He needs to show that he is more than that. He's not a core guy to me, not yet, anyway.

Davis was so-so. He has a reputation as being a solid tackler, so that should help. The jury's still out as far as I'm concerned.

Now I am not saying that all of these guy should be cut right now, or anything like that. However, to me, a core player is a guy who does not carry heavy questions as far as his play. He is a guy you plug in, and just let him play.

Using the Steelers as an example, Roethlisberger, Bell, Brown, Wheaton, Pouncey, DeCastro, DeAngelo Williams .. these are among their core player.

Using the Bengals, Dalton, Eifert, Green, Dunlap, Atkins, Peko ..... these are among their core players.

There is a huge difference between these teams' core players, and the players from our team that you mentioned. Maybe some of our guys reach that level, but they aren't there yet.

You asked who I thought the core players are. I answered and now your moving the goal posts by comparing your core to those of perennial playoff teams to prove their inadequacy. So yeah of course they don't match up to those teams. But that was never the argument.

We can agree to disagree about what record the roster will produce. The season will play out and we'll have an answer. Heck post draft we can revisit.

Well, we may have a disconnect on what core players are then.

To me, they are the guys who are so good that you build around them. They are guys who are good enough that you plug them into the lineup, and don't worry about them. Not all of them have to be superstars, but they have to be above average level at their positions. They are not "just guys", who happen to be the better players on our team. To me, they have to be players who are as good as, or better than, similar players on other teams.

That's my view on that categorization.

For a while I have been leaning towards 0-16 as my guess this year. But, at the risk of being overly optimistic/homeristic as I was last year when I predicted 4-12, I am now thinking 1-15. Not sure which game, but we luck into a win somewhere along the line. We did in our expansion year ...

No offense, but I don't understand how you cannot include Joe Haden as a core player. Joe only played in 5 games last year. Actually, it's probably less because I believe his SECOND concussion happened early in a game. Nevermind the guy had rib injury, and ankle injury which he had surgery on.

Yet Bitonio, who didn't perform as good as his rookie season and went on injured reserve too, did.

I can accept Haden as a core player, if can stay on the field, and plays to his level of talk. Even when he was healthy last year, he did not play like a great CB. Now I accept that we had major issues with the pass rush, and that caused issues for the secondary, so if you want to move Haden into a core spot, then that's OK. I won't argue it too much. However, he has a top dollar contract, and he needs to play like a #1 corner. Consistently.

Injuries are a major concern, because he only played 5 games last year, and was knocked out of 4 of them, IIRC.

As a side note, we had a ton of concussions in the secondary last year. We need to teach our DBs how to tackle. (although I seem to recall that one of the concussions was a cheap shot)

How big of a factor does coaching/attitude play in the perceived quality of a roster?

Were our players "suppressed" in that way last season? Can Hue elevate their play?

Could Hue be our Urban to Pettine's Fickell?

I think it is too early to make broad predictions about the team and our eventual record.

Hue's impact has hardly been felt yet. Will it? We'll see.

I think that Hue is an excellent coach, and will get the most out of the players we have. Plus, we may fill a lot of holes in this roster this weekend at the draft. These are really about the only 2 aspects of this team that give me any hope at all, because this roster has been gutted, and we have lost some of our best players for nothing.

We'll see what we have when the season starts. With what we have right now, Hue could do an all time greatest ever coaching job, and still wind up with only 3-5 wins.

I don't get the Urban/Hue comparison.

Urban BEFORE Ohio State:

--104 wins and 23 losses.
--7 and 1 in bowl games.
--1 National Championship

Urban INCLUDING Ohio State:

--154 wins and 27 losses.
--9 and 2 in bowl games.
--2 National Championships.


Hue Jackson BEFORE Cleveland:

--8 wins and 8 losses.
--0 playoff wins
--0 Super Bowl Wins

Hue Jackson INCLUDING Cleveland:

--8 wins and 8 losses.
--0 playoff wins
--0 Super Bowl Wins


Oh..............and Ohio State is stacked w/talent. Look at how many guys are projected to be picked high in this year's draft. The Brown's roster was poor and got even worse during the free agency period.

I don't think it is too early to make predictions. In fact, Vegas has already done so. So, there is obviously interest and merit in the discussion.

Actually Vers. Urban won 2 National Championships at Florida so counting the one he won with Ohio that makes 3 for him

LOL..........my bad. Thanks for the correction.

I was offering a hypothetical more than a direct comparison. I was trying to point out how talented teams can underperform with subpar coaching, and then perform a lot better with superior coaching. Ohio State was the first team that came to mind, and I figured people on the board would be familiar. Yes, Fickell to Urban was a pretty extreme example, but I was trying to illustrate a point.

Could Hue be an upgrade from Pettine? Could that lead to more wins?

How much and how many we'll have to wait and see.

We don't even have our rookie class on the team yet.