DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Two Interviews with Pettine & Farmer

Pettine's:

Mike Pettine's biggest regrets were the Browns' top two picks of the 2014 draft

A painful look back: The morning of his first draft as Cleveland Browns coach in 2014, Mike Pettine knew the team would take a quarterback with its second of two first-round draft picks.

“The two guys we felt good about were [Derek] Carr and [Jimmy] Garoppolo,” Pettine said Tuesday. “Just projecting the guys we thought would be there, we all thought [Teddy] Bridgewater would be gone.” But in one of those epic draft-day surprises that changes the fortunes of a franchise, and alters the lives of so many others, the Browns wound up taking Johnny Manziel after a trade up from No. 26 to No. 22.

In recalling his tumultuous two-year stint as Browns coach in an exclusive interview with ESPN Cleveland, Pettine cited the selection of Manziel as one of his biggest regrets.

Former GM Ray Farmer has taken accountability for the controversial pick, but he recently said in an interview that choosing Manziel was the result of a “groupthink methodology.”

“He was high on our board, but the opinions were mixed,” Pettine said. “He was not our No. 1. But he was a guy we felt we could do some things with. He clearly had an NFL skill-set and leadership ability. But the unfortunate part is for him to be successful in the NFL, as we all came to realize, if you have some limitations -- in his case, size – you have to be elite in all other areas, and that includes the off the field stuff. That ultimately was his undoing.”

Manziel’s undoing hit a new low on Tuesday when he was indicted by a Dallas grand jury on a misdemeanor assault charge stemming from an incident involving his former girlfriend on Jan. 30.

During Pettine’s two years in Cleveland, Manziel also was disciplined for missing an injury rehab session, admitted himself to a 73-day stay in a substance abuse clinic, had another incident with his ex-girlfriend that did not result in charges, was benched for lying about his partying during the team’s bye week, showed up unfit for work and then complained of concussion symptoms, and then skipped the team’s final game for a gambling trip to Las Vegas, on which he reportedly wore a disguise to hide his identity. Manziel was released by the Browns on March 11 – more than two months after Pettine was fired.

“It’s sad,” Pettine said. “I have concern for the kid first. It was all stuff that we all kind of knew on the inside, that these problems are deep-rooted.

“He’s a likable guy when you’re around him. But we’re not with him when he’s with that group that he runs with when the demons come out. It was sometimes hard for us to understand.

“Outside of that one day that was documented, when he came in in the morning [and was removed from a quarterbacks meeting] -- Was it a concussion? Was he hung over? What was it? – I can’t recall one day when it was like he was just mailing it in on a bender. That wasn’t the case. He came to work, especially in Year Two.”

Regrets? He had a few: Asked to name other things he wish he could do over, Pettine quipped, “Where do I start?”

If he started at the beginning, it would not be the Manziel selection but the choice of cornerback Justin Gilbert with the team’s first draft pick in 2014, at No. 8 overall after a trade down, and then a trade up.

The Browns’ vetting process of Gilbert was remarkably lax – they did not meet with him at the NFL Combine, invite him to a pre-draft visit or privately work him out – until a visit by Farmer in the last days before the draft. Gilbert’s development has suffered from what some have described as a lack of love and passion for the game of football.

“I think a lot would have been different had we taken somebody else there,” Pettine said.

Pettine’s first season was marred by occasional game-day interference from Farmer, who subsequently was suspended by the NFL for four games in 2015 for violating league electronic device rules for texting coaches in the coaches box and other team personnel on the sidelines. Pettine let the counter-productive interferences roll off his back, but they led to the resignation of offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan after the 2014 season.

Pettine said that Farmer texted a message intended for him one time – the message actually was sent to a trainer – and Pettine “nipped it in the bud and that ended very quick.”
But he was unaware Farmer continued to text other coaches until Shanahan spoke of it as a reason for wanting out.

Although some of the texts were said to be about playing Manziel, Pettine said he “never felt direct pressure” from Farmer or owner Jimmy Haslam or former President Alec Scheiner to play Manziel. He said discussions early on were “if we get an opportunity, are we going to play him?”

Pettine shot down the perception that he and Farmer sparred over the signing and subsequent lack of playing time for veteran receiver Dwayne Bowe.

“I know a lot falls on Ray with that one, but as a coaching staff we evaluated [Bowe’s] 2014 tape and then ending the spring we were pleased with the signing,” Pettine said. “When he came back in the fall, he was a different guy. Got hurt, was carrying a lot of extra weight, and never recovered. There was not that commitment from him from the standpoint of being ready to play.”

Going forward: Pettine said he wasn’t blindsided by his firing after losing 18 of his last 21 games for a two-year record of 10-22. He said his first experience as an NFL head coach “beat me up a little bit.”

He said he needed this year away from coaching but did not want to sit out a second year even though he’ll be paid by the Browns through 2017. He intends to spend the 2016 season staying involved in the NFL by doing some projects for unnamed coaches in the league.

Pettine lamented the lack of time given him by Haslam and said the new Browns’ regime has to commit to his successor, Hue Jackson, for its new analytics approach to work.

“That’s a big part of it. Do they have the commitment of time? That’s the issue,” Pettine said. “There were a lot of decisions we made last year about younger players. If I had known truly our jobs were on the line, would I have coached little bit differently? Probably.”

Ultimately, though, Pettine knows that his fate was tied to the selection of his quarterback, which turned out to be not the choice of him or his top offensive coaches.

“When you look at rookie coaches that take first-round quarterbacks, you’re immediately tied to him,” Pettine said. “Your whole future is, if this guy works out, you’re set. If he doesn’t, you’re out. It’s easy now to regret that one.”

Two years later, the coach and his quarterback are out. Jackson is in and is completing the process to select the next quarterback hopeful in this weekend’s draft.
http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland/post/_...-the-2014-draft

___________

Farmer's:

Former Cleveland Browns GM Ray Farmer on Johnny Manziel pick: ‘I have to own it’

Had Johnny Manziel been part of the 2015 draft instead of the one a year earlier, perhaps he never would have been selected by the Browns.

Ray Farmer, fired as Browns general manager after the disastrous 3-13 2015 season, was interviewed on Damon Amendolara’s CBS Radio show April 25 and gave some insight into how the Browns moved up four spots from 26 to 22 so they could draft Manziel, the Heisman Trophy winner from Texas A&M.

The assumption is Browns owner Jimmy Haslam pressured Farmer to draft Manziel, whose short NFL career with the Browns flopped miserably.

Farmer, though, implied it was a collaborative decision.

Manziel was waived in March, and since the end of the season his personal life has been even more of a disaster. On April 26, he was indicted on a misdemeanor assault charge by a Texas grand jury for allegedly striking his former girlfriend, Colleen Crowley, on Jan. 30.

About a month after his rookie season ended in 2014, Manziel spent 73 days in a rehab center in Pennsylvania being treated for an unspecified addiction.

“There are very few decisions that are made in a vacuum,” Farmer told Amendolara. “The GM very, very, very rarely says, ‘Hey, I’m taking this guy, and there’s nothing anybody else is going to say about it.’ The head coach doesn’t do it. The owner doesn’t do it.

“In that (Manziel) case, I would tell you that there were a lot of conversations that happened and the selection was made. Nevertheless, it’s the reality of the National Football League. Whoever gets selected, that name is going to get attributed to the general manager, whether he selected that guy or not. For good, worse, better, it doesn’t really matter. Johnny Manziel is mine. I have to own it.”

Manziel wasn’t the only misfire from Farmer’s first draft. Cornerback Justin Gilbert, picked eighth (the same slot the Browns are picking in April 28) was a huge disappointment his first two years. The theory goes that former head coach Mike Pettine was the driving force behind choosing Gilbert.

Guard Joel Bitonio, a second-round choice, has been the only consistent contributor from the 2014 draft. Running back Terrance West, a third-round pick, was cut after one season. Linebacker Chris Kirksey, another third-round choice, is a projected starter in 2016 after starting a total of 13 games his first two seasons. Fourth-round cornerback Pierre Desir will have to fight to keep his job in training camp this summer.

“As you grow, you definitely take more ownership of the process,” Farmer said. “And in that process, you’re able to not only articulate, but I’ll say steer the room even more to the realities of what you see and what you’re coming to understand as the draft in and of itself. ... Coaches always tell you what they want. You lean on (scouts). As you work through that process, you’re able to have those conversations open and honestly about the goods, the bads.”

Farmer was not asked whether he would have “steered the room” away from Manziel if the 2014 draft were his second instead of his first.

The decision the current regime made to trade the second pick to the Eagles to accumulate more picks is one Farmer understands. Farmer refused to mortgage the future last year in a trade-up with the Titans so he could draft Oregon quarterback Marcus Mariota, whom the Titans drafted.

By acquiring the Eagles’ first pick, eight overall, plus a third and fourth this year, Philadelphia’s first-round pick next year and their second-round pick in 2018, the Browns are giving up the chance to take quarterback Carson Wentz from North Dakota State, assuming the Rams take quarterback Jared Goff with the first pick.

“In some respects, everybody wants a franchise quarterback — and to me, the term is truly overblown,” Farmer said. “When you get down to the nuts and bolts of most NFL teams, the quarterback is not winning and losing you every single game. Most guys manage and utilize the people around them to advance the narrative. They move the team forward, but they’re not controlling every game.”

Farmer expressed similar sentiments during his time with the Browns.
http://www.morningjournal.com/sports/201...-have-to-own-it


Interesting these happened on the same day.

Everyone knows the Manziel pick was a "groupthink." Someone chimed in, and forced the issue to draft him.

I am amazed that something like that could happen in this day and age. Man, I think some of our posters put more work into the draft than our FO did. I'm only half kidding.

Justin Gilbert rightfully just got threw under the bus. Yes, alot probably would've been different had ya selected someone, anyone, else at that high spot.

The stars probably would've aligned had ya also not choosen to pick the loser like Manziel, even when you just admitted you though Teddy would've been off the board.

Reading those articles just makes things worse. Man I hope this staff, if they really have a player locked in, done their freaking homework on him. Fingers crossed.

I honestly can't believe a word that comes out of Farmers mouth, But on the other hand, I believe Pettine is a good guy and a good coach who had a to deal with a totally dysfunctional situation.

On the Manziel and Gilbert picks.. it bothers me to no end that the team can go out and talk to a guy for 15 minutes at the Combine and that's it. Then pick him with the 8th pick in the draft.. I don't call that doing any REAL research.. sorry but I call that idiotic.

As for Manziel, I get the rationale, but in the end, if they had Carr and Garapolo on the short list.. And apparently Bridgewater was high on the list also but they thought he would be gone... And none of them were when we picked Manziel, so that just shows me they were looking for a "Splash" instead of substance.

And I do think the leader on that subject was Haslam. Just my Opinion of course. I can't prove it and Pettine/Farmer aren't admitting it.

But in the end, it's history, I'm sorry Pettine didn't get a chance to work with the current front office, It might have been fun to watch.

The most concerning thing about the QB issue [taking Manziel over the other guys] is that Haslam is still here. Frankly, I do not trust him.

I also wonder about the extent of Sashi's roles in all of those decisions. He's a marketing guy. Not a football guy. Just makes me wonder........

Man...........wait until mac reads this.

I cannot even comprehend how you could take Justin Gilbert after reading that.

I can at least somewhat understand the Manziel thing....Owner wants him bad, he gets him....Jerry Jones has been doing this for DECADES and almost did the same exact thing with the same player.

But Gilbert? truly unbelievable.

Pettine was as honest and forthright as he could be IMO ... obviously we know he wanted Teddy, Carr, or Jimmy G ALL before he wanted Johnny.

Gilbert seems to be the one pick that he regrets the most

Where do you expect him to be? He owns the team. For better or worse, we're stuck with either him or his wife (in the case he's found guilty of something and has to give up his ownership of the team)

Haslam isn't going anywhere until HE decides to move on.

I don't think I feel as distrusting as you do toward Haslam.

He seems to feel the need to succeed and that's a good thing. And he seems to be willing to do anything to reach that end. To a point, that's also a good thing.

However, thus far he's not a whole lot different in his decision making than Randy Lerner was.

Check your facts Vers, Sashi isn't remotely a marketing guy. I can't exactly tell you what he is, but it's not marketing.

I like pet, wish him well. But I'm glad we made the changes. Am I the only one who reads Pet coming across as Woe Is Me? No wonder the 2nd yr. was so bad. He talks like somebody stole his cookie. This was really telling: If I had known truly our jobs were on the line, would I have coached little bit differently? Probably.”


Wasn't he always telling us that this was a bottom line business? Shouldn't you always be coaching like it's your last game? And I can't understand why they all seemed so laid back and not worried about winning. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Got into a discussion with some family members last night about Browns coaches since 99 ... someone said Pettine was the worst, and I honestly don't think that's true. I didn't like some of the defensive scheme stuff (at least from my limited knowledge). But I don't think he was a terrible coach ... just had some bad circumstances and lost the FO/team

From my perspective Shurmur was the worst coach we've had since 99

I don't think Shurms was as bad as he seemed. He was still bad but, I think C Palmer was worse. Granted they didn't give him much to work with, but he was pretty clueless.

Who was the best? Butch?

Not to mention I TOTALLY forgot we had Chud lol

I like Pettine, but didn't think he was an effective HC. He didn't seem to inspire his players, he couldn't seem to win a coach's challenge, and for some reason he seemed to think that taking time outs into the locker room won him something. (I think he was saving them to give to friends for Christmas.)

I was all for keeping him for another year at least until Vers started his "Continuity for the Sake of Continuity" thread. The discussion in that thread got me to re-evaluate my position and realize that even when you are trying to establish continuity, if the team is dysfunctional to the degree the Browns appeared to be, then it might be best to scrap it all and start over...again.

Screw Farmer and Pet

It's not going to be at all difficult to field a much better team than what Farmer and Pet did.

But really, passing up elite players in the draft is the same thing they all have done since '99.

We need to start adding elite talent at the impact positions soon or it's just more Front office lip service. Promising us the moon, then forcing us to eat this stinky cheese again.

I'll give the best nod to the guy who won the most games in a season...

Romeo...

Chris Palmer
Butch Davis
Romeo Crennel
Eric Mangini
Pat Shurmur
Rob Chudzinski
Mike Pettine


Rank them

1. Butch Davis
2. Romeo Crennel
3. Eric Mangini
4. Mike Pettine
5. Rob Chudzinski
6. Chris Palmer
7. Pat Shurmur

These articles are crazy. You never hear coaches/GMs comment on these type of things so soon after the have been fired.

Sashi Brown was not a marketing guy. You are thinking of Alec Scheiner.

Don't let the facts get in the way when trying to plant seeds of doubt.

Butch - he was the only one to get us into the post-season

I could care less what these 2 bozos have to say ... JMHO

Another great football post.

There has been a lot of rumors of late about the reason we didnt vet our prospects and guess there may be some truth to it. How in the hell can you trade up for a player at 8 you never even bothered to sit down with. I am just amazed by the ineptness.

Heads needed to roll.

Sashi Brown
General Counsel

Sashi Brown joined the Jaguars prior to the 2005 NFL season. Now in his seventh season with the Jaguars, Brown advises the franchise in a variety of legal and business matters. His responsibilities include contract negotiation, employment matters, insurance and risk management, intellectual property and licensing issues and litigation management. Prior to joining the Jaguars, Brown was an attorney with Wilmer, Cutler, Pickering, Hale and Dorr, a private law firm based in Washington, D.C. As a member of the firm’s corporate law practice group, Brown advised companies in a variety of business transactions.

Brown earned an undergraduate degree from Hampton University in 1998 and a juris doctorate degree from Harvard Law School in 2002. Brown is a member of the New York, District of Columbia and Florida bars.

In addition to his duties with the Jaguars, Brown serves as a member of the Board of Directors and Chairman of the Section 8 Subcommittee to the Jacksonville Housing Authority. Brown resides in Jacksonville with his wife Paige. He is a native of Boston,Boston, Massachusetts, where he was born on May 15, 1976.
link


Prior to joining the Browns on Jan 17, 2013, there is no mention anywhere of Sashi Brown having anything to do with the football side of the Jags. Sashi Brown is a lawyer.

So...he isn't a football guy OR marketing guy.

Got it.

Apologies, but this is a pet peeve of mine. I see this a lot on the board.

Saying you "could care less" implies that you do care on some level. To make the point you're aiming at, I think you mean that you "could not care less"

a pet peeve of mine is having a GM that didnt want to attend pro days. willing to trade up for players with doing absolutely no research into their personal lives. Its inconceivable. Honestly, the guy should never work for another NFL team. I am ashamed of ever supporting any of his decisions.

The more we learn of them the less we like. I guess Haslam knew what he was doing

And maybe some of us posters knew what we were saying.......

yep u didnt like farmer from day 1. You were defiitely correct. total freaking waste adn his draft set us back another 5 years.

If I remember correctly, Versatile Dog didn't like Farmer because he was hired by Banner and he also didn't like Banner.

Thanks............but that isn't quite true.

I was neutral on him. Judged each move independently at first. Because I didn't like some early moves, people thought I hated him immediately. But, I also liked a few of his moves. Bitonio, Crow, Dansby, Whit, etc

As time wore on, and factoring in some of his comments---especially regarding the skill positions----I came to the conclusion he was a moron when it came to evaluating talent.

I'm neutral on the new FO, too. Judging each move on it's own merits.

Hated what happened w/our Big 3 free agents. I didn't care much about Benji. One year wonder in a contract year, but the other three...

Liked the RGIII move. Not much risk. Huge reward.

Loved the trade from 2 to 8. Wish it could have been to 4, but hey...LOL

I do hope they get an impact player or 2 at impact positions, though. I don't want a bunch of "guys."

I think it's just the opposite. If he really was one of the football guys in the decision making process, he's a part of the reason the team is where it is now. That may be even scarier than if he has no football experience at all.

I am not sure either of those comments are germane to the discussion? Do you have some inside information?

Given the rapid changes in thinking since Sashi took over, I'd say he wasn't part of the decision makers.

In fact, I'd say he just convinced the Haslams that a different direction is needed.. let's hope he's right in that case.

I think the FA periods are similar. I also think that the talks about trading Joe Thomas and Alex Mack last year sounds similar.

I think there had to be some history there. I don't think Haslam just woke up one day and gave "ultimate" control to Sashi if had ZERO involvement in past decisions. That would be lunacy.