Why the system is key for RG III: With the launch of ESPN’s new venture, “Undefeated,” RGIII became part of the news cycle again after this excellent piece by Jason Reid chronicled his rise and fall in Washington.
One of the more interesting points the article makes is how the unusual offense structured around Griffin made him so successful initially, and how completely unsuccessful he was in any other system once it had been abandoned.
No team ran play-action more often than Washington did that season, with 39.9 percent of RG III’s dropbacks featuring it—3.8 percent more than any other player. The team in second place was doing a similar thing to help Russell Wilson’s transition in Seattle.
Griffin’s stats were not bad on the plays he wasn’t running play action—as the running threat and effectiveness of the offense overall was still having an impact—but they paled by comparison to those play-action numbers:
Though Griffin was efficient without play-action, throwing 11 touchdowns to just one interception, he was devastating with it, completing 67.7 percent of his passes at 11.8 yards per attempt, and with a passer rating of 116.2 (despite four interceptions on those passes).
Griffin might not like it, but the key to his success in the NFL is working within an offense that suits him, but the same is true for most quarterbacks in the league. If he can put ego aside and the Browns are willing to structure an offense around him that plays to his strengths and masks his weaknesses, RG III can succeed in the NFL, at least in the short-term, despite his limitations as a pure pocket-passer.
If, on the other hand, one of those two things doesn’t happen, we will see more of the guy who played his way to the bench and off of Washington’s roster entirely.
he's going to have RG3 out of the pocket as much as he can ... hence why he was so intrigued with Kaep too.
Hue will definitely have guys in the right position ... the question is do we have enough talent
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Though Griffin was efficient without play-action, throwing 11 touchdowns to just one interception, he was devastating with it, completing 67.7 percent of his passes at 11.8 yards per attempt, and with a passer rating of 116.2 (despite four interceptions on those passes).
wow. be nice to have a QB that can sell the play action......
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
Though Griffin was efficient without play-action, throwing 11 touchdowns to just one interception, he was devastating with it, completing 67.7 percent of his passes at 11.8 yards per attempt, and with a passer rating of 116.2 (despite four interceptions on those passes).
wow. be nice to have a QB that can sell the play action......
It would be nice to have a running game to sell the play action.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
well, if you take the stance that this article does where "what was is all that can ever be", then yeah... we'll have to build an offense similar to what he had his first year.
I, however, don't subscribe to that narrow view, at all.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
Though Griffin was efficient without play-action, throwing 11 touchdowns to just one interception, he was devastating with it, completing 67.7 percent of his passes at 11.8 yards per attempt, and with a passer rating of 116.2 (despite four interceptions on those passes).
wow. be nice to have a QB that can sell the play action......
It would be nice to have a running game to sell the play action.
Bingo.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
Do you have any thoughts on the offense this season?
It may be ambitious but I would like, as much as possible, to make this thread a "football thread" about the offense this season and not about other Griffin related gossip/rumor.
Maybe, articles like the one you posted are a better fit in the RGIII thread or a thread of its own?
You're right about the story belonging in the other thread. The topic took an RGIII turn and I mindlessly posted that.
I wish I did have valid thoughts about the offense. My problem with any prediction like that is that there are so many changes I don't know what to expect. It's the same reason I don't see how anyone can offer even a wild-ass-guess as to our record. Every thing and every body is new. Prediction as to our record would be based on what?
Developing an offense to put the players in the best situations to succeed goes beyond fitting it to RGIII, who to me is an unknown at this point. Regardless of anyone elses opinion he does have special skills but the defining factor is that he does struggle reading coverages. A lot. How much Hue can help him overcome that is to be seen. I know he's read coverages fine at times. But he has to become proficient and consistent at it to be considered not only here for the long-term but also to be effective in the short-term. So what kind of offense does Hue design to account for all that is a question.
Then there are the other ten guys on offense. We have an OL that is a big unknown at this point. I know Hue wants to run the ball (who don't?) and a lot of the effectiveness of that is on the OL. He has to find effective players at C and RT and I'm afraid that the best of the bunch are going to be projects whether they're our vets or our rookies. So what offense can Hue design to put that OL in the best situation to succeed while keeping it also the best situation for RGIII to succeed?
I'll say the same thing about our WRs. With our shotgun approach to that position in the draft we should come out of it with one or two quality WRs. Even if that's true I don't expect them to play like wiley vets out of the box. They are going to need to be put in the best situations to learn and succeed and again, while keeping the same true for the OL and for Robert. I think that quite a juggling act.
And for his finial performance, Hue has to find the best ways to use our RBs. I think they are both fine backs, each with his own effective skill-set, but again, the OL is going to figure big in the running game's effectiveness and the running game is going to figure big in the passing game's effectiveness as well.
Somehow all those different positions, all lacking in one way or another, have to each be put in the best possible situations to succeed and that might be different for each position and each player. As Ringo Starr said, "It don't come easy."
So I have no idea what to expect from Hue as to the offense he will run, not even to how it will lean considering all the unknowns. What I do feel fairly confident about is between he, Pep and Al they already have some idea how to deal with all that at once. But me, I haven't the slightest.
P.S. If we want to complicate it even further, we have no idea yet as to how our defense will play. Are we going to be playing offense from behind because the defense can't stop the scoring or will they be good enough to keep us in games? Because if we're playing from behind all the time we'll be throwing the ball a lot even if that doesn't put certain positions/individual players in the best situations to succeed.
I'm retired now. But I was pretty dang good at what I did. I could take a small crew and put out some amazing work. But if I, like Hue & Company, were saddled with a completely new crew of rookies who'd never played together I know we'd struggle. If my boss would ask me to predict how well can do out of the gate my answer would be, "How the hell am I supposed to know?!"
...I wish I did have valid thoughts about the offense. My problem with any prediction like that...
Good post.
Lol and don't sell yourself short.... For someone that doesn't think they have valid thoughts about the offense you sure seemed to list a lot of valid thoughts in my eyes. Can't address them in this post it would be too hasty, but I hope to give it more thought later. Plus, I have my own ideas based on Hue's history and what I perceive to be the strengths/skillsets of the current roster.
As far as predictions didn't intend for a prediction thread...more of a discussion for those so inclined.
Originally Posted By: Hue Jackson upon being named the OC for the Bengals
"We have some very talented players on the outside," Jackson continued. "We have to give them opportunities to make plays. We're not going to shy away from having to throw it when we need to. But in order to win and be a very good offensive football team, you have to be able to run the ball, and that's going to be a starting point for us."
Hue won't give up on the run either. Stop it early and he'll keep running the ball. He figures out a way to get the running game working during the game rather than abandoning it.
I think we'll see a mix of some old Air Coryell, mixed with trick plays, and a lot of counter and power runs.
On passes we'll move the pocket a round a bit if RG3 is in the game.
This is just a guess though based on the coaching tree Hue came from and what adjustments he made to the offenses that he inherited in the past.
Hue's Offense with the input of Al and RG3 being the QB should have a good potential of succeeding.
If Saunders can get one of the Browns rookie WR's to excel like he did with Jarvis Landry, it will be a big advantage for RG3.
I would have to take into account what Hue did with Stephen Davis, the Redskins RB.. Wishfully hoping that Crow and Duke will flourish under Hue, again that will be a benefit for RG3.
Primarily the success Hue and Al had with RB's and Receivers will hopefully transfer over to the players we have on the team now.
If the line can give RG3 time, It may help him improve his read times...Hopefully we see an offense that has a strong run game with RB's that protect the QB and Receivers who can get open and catch the ball.
I would hope to see a strong power run with some deep throws downfield to the receivers.Hue has to get improvement out of RG3.. RG3 can be an accurate passer.
Hue likes alignment shifts.. that should help RG3 with reading the defense.
I don't believe for one minute that Hue and company are going to change everything they do because of one player. Hue said it himself, he is going to install a system where every QB can thrive. He believes in HIS system. So I think it behoves RG3 to learn the new offense quick, keep his eyes and ears open and his mouth shut. I don't see these guys suffering fools for very long. So far RG is saying all the right things. We will see in camp if he knows the offense and is a fit for it. He better have it down pat. McCown will you can bet on that.....
We will run the ball. How effectively is the question. Line concerns aside, I'm not convinced Crowell is a 25-30 carry a game running back. Then of course there ARE the line concerns...
he's going to have RG3 out of the pocket as much as he can ... hence why he was so intrigued with Kaep too.
Hue will definitely have guys in the right position ... the question is do we have enough talent
I'm still kind of wondering how much interest they really had in Kaep? Clearly not enough to give up the ship for him.
No team was seemingly willing to entertain their high demands for a below average, run style Qb. I'm proud of us we didn't push those buttons lol. I'll take RGIII on the cheap prove it contract that we did over that any and all day.
It was what I envisioned before the draft, but I'm not so sure about the passing game now. I think it might be more getting the ball to playmakers in space quickly than heavy vertical passing. I think Hue will still take his shots, but perhaps not as often as I had initially thought. It will be interesting to see how the offense develops this season.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
Between the Shanahan's and the Gruden's there wasnt a lot of coaches willing to give him a shot. he is lucky Hue has felt he has been a bit blackballed and may be a bit more understanding of RG3.
I think the Bengals offense is very good place to start when picturing the offense. Terrell Pryor/Ricardo Louis seem like good proxys for Mo Sanuk role w/ reverses, end around and wildcat.
Another often overlooked aspect of this staff is AL Saunders experience in Miami. I'm not sure how much of Landry's production is due to him. But at very least he saw HOW they used him. Imo Coleman can be used the same way (not to mention being more dynamic).
Dalton did a lot more zone-read w/ Hue then Jay. Griffin can run those same concepts and makes them even more of threat to backside contain. Those backside defenders will have to play honest and not crash down the line. That will allow the run game to have more space, more time and more cutback chances.
It was what I envisioned before the draft, but I'm not so sure about the passing game now. I think it might be more getting the ball to playmakers in space quickly than heavy vertical passing. I think Hue will still take his shots, but perhaps not as often as I had initially thought. It will be interesting to see how the offense develops this season.
Many have mentioned the running game as an integral part of Hue Jackson's offense.
Year Team Rush Yards Rank Overall Rank 2003 Washington 1653--22------23 2007 Atlanta 1520--26------23 2010 Oakland 2494---2------10 2011 Oakland 2110---7-------9 2014 Cincinnati 2147---6------15
Historically, Hue has improved the running game wherever he's been. From the Raiders to the Bengals hue has committed to and improved the run game. But, what does the running game look like? And how do the pieces here match-up?
The Bengals were his last stop, so I'll start there: I prefer Football Outsiders Stats to raw 'counting' stats like yards that are available form espn/nfl.com.
A look at the Bengals run game through the numbers: 2015 had the 7th rated run game vs the 10th rated defensive schedule 2014 had the 10th rated run game vs the 23rd rated defensive schedule
Cleveland run game: 2015 had the 19th rated run game vs 1st rated defensive schedule 2014 had the 26th rated run game vs 28th rated defensive schedule
What does it look like? Some elements that jump out to me are: -diversity in the run game -use of a FB and double/triple TEs -use on unbalanced line -use of zone concepts (to include QB zone-read)
The main running style of Hue Jackson’s offense is a power running scheme. He has orchestrated successful running games throughout his career. In Cincinnati as offensive coordinator, his team ranked 13th last season in total rushing yards, and sixth in 2014. When he was Oakland’s offensive coordinator in 2010, his team ranked second in total rushing yards; when he was head coach in 2011, his team ranked seventh in total rushing yards. Here is an example of his power running game.
This play is a straight running back dive handoff with an overloaded line. The Bengals are in an I-formation with two tight ends lined up on the right end of the line. Running back Jeremy Hill runs right behind the fullback between the center and the right guard.
The Bengals seven blockers on the line initially block the four St. Louis defensive linemen, with double teams on the defensive tackles. Once the linebackers crash toward the play, Bengals right tackle Andre Smith (No. 71) and left guard Clint Boling (No. 65) break off the double teams to take care of them. The key blocks in this play are those on two interior defensive linemen and then on the linebacker that tries to fill in the hole where Hill is about to run through. Bengals H-back Ryan Hewitt (No. 89) blocks the oncoming linebacker so that Hill can go through the gap without any real threat of being tackled. It was great power running from the Bengals offense.
Cincinnati’s front five graded out very well according to PFF numbers, finishing as the No. 4 pass blocking unit, and seventh-best in run blocking.
Pos. Run Block----- Pass Block---------- Overall LT Andrew Whitworth---------11.8 R 22.8 P 36.8 Ov LG Clint Boling -----------5.4 R -1.6 P 5 Ov C Russell Bodine----------(-5.4)R -10 P -13.8 Ov RG Kevin Zeitler------------9.3 R 6.3 P 17.2 Ov RT Andre Smith-------------(-5.4) R -0.4 P -1.9 Ov OT Marshall Newhouse-------(-3) R -8.8 P -11.6 Ov
... Pos. Run Block----- Pass Block---------- Overall LT Andrew Whitworth---------11.8 R 22.8 P 36.8 Ov LG Clint Boling -----------5.4 R -1.6 P 5 Ov C Russell Bodine----------(-5.4)R -10 P -13.8 Ov RG Kevin Zeitler------------9.3 R 6.3 P 17.2 Ov RT Andre Smith-------------(-5.4) R -0.4 P -1.9 Ov OT Marshall Newhouse-------(-3) R -8.8 P -11.6 Ov
a PFF comp of the OLs by rating
2015 Bengals OL V (proj) Browns 2016 OL
LT Whitworth........89......V....94.....Joe Thomas LG Boling....(82run)80.....V....70.....Bitonio (83 run) C Bodine....(38run)42......V....32@OG..Erving (32run) RG Zeitler...(83 run)85.....V....76.....Greco (75 run) RT A. Smith..(41 run)40....V RT Newhouse..(33run)35...V.....35.....Bailey (42 run)
The way the Draft played out in general. 4 receivers, Coleman over Treadwell and Doctson.
It may not be really getting away from the vertical passing game but it's not the way I thought we'd do it. I was thinking more AJ Green jump balls to the outside, and we went more DeSean Jackson streaking down the middle or taking a short pass the distance.
I'm curious to see what Hue puts together come the regular season.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
I appreciate your efforts and it's the dead season, so it's good conversation. However, I would caution all to be careful about drawing conclusions from all of those stats. The talent level between the Bengals and Browns is immense.
I appreciate your efforts and it's the dead season, so it's good conversation. However, I would caution all to be careful about drawing conclusions from all of those stats. The talent level between the Bengals and Browns is immense.
No worries, I used to coach and I'm a football nerd/junkie and this is my football fix. I would be doing this anyway.
The way the Draft played out in general. 4 receivers, Coleman over Treadwell and Doctson.
It may not be really getting away from the vertical passing game but it's not the way I thought we'd do it. I was thinking more AJ Green jump balls to the outside, and we went more DeSean Jackson streaking down the middle or taking a short pass the distance.
I'm curious to see what Hue puts together come the regular season.
I'm not sure I follow your connection from the receivers we drafted to not being vertical in the passing game. I thought Coleman was the best deep threat vertical receiver in the draft. Jordan is much faster then people realize and Louis can fly too.
I'm excited to see what this offense actually looks like.
it's not the way I thought we'd do it. I was thinking more AJ Green jump balls to the outside, and we went more DeSean Jackson streaking down the middle or taking a short pass the distance.
There can be plenty of jump balls to the outside..
Louis had a verticle jump 0f 38" Coleman 40" AJ green had a 34.5 "
Louis had a 4.43 in the 40 ...Coleman 4.37 and AJ 4.50
Seems like we might have a high jumping fast running duo of WR's this season.
To be honest, Dalton isnt nearly the deep ball passer that RG3 is. he makes better decisions with the football but Griff's deep accuracy is up there with the best. Dalton created a lot of jump balls when Green was wide open.
Jordan is much faster then people realize and Louis can fly too.
These are the kind of comments that make me scratch my head somewhat. How well do they run routes? How well do they catch? How well do they get open vs NFL CBs? How well do they come down with the contested catch? I think you get the idea. Speed is only one part of the equation.
I know that you know better than to go off of stats only. And I'm sure you're not doing that completely. With that said, there are so many unknowns with these rookies that it's a stretch to predict how well they will do in an NFL offensive scheme, for the first time, having never faced NFL secondary talent.
About as optimistic as I can get is being excited to see how well they can actually do.
Jordan is much faster then people realize and Louis can fly too.
These are the kind of comments that make me scratch my head somewhat.
Me too.*shrugs* You're responding to a post about Z then complaining?/lamenting? (not sure the right word here) that were not talking about A or Z.
Quote:
Speed is only one part of the equation.
Obviously. But the conversation was about the vertical passing game; where speed is thee major factor.
Quote:
I know that you know better than to go off of stats only. And I'm sure you're not doing that completely.
So...I should begin a discussion about Hue's respective offenses without using any object measures for comparison? Ummm okay.
Any comment about the OL/run game comparison thus far? I'm still not finished obviously because I've yet to cover the RBs.
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With that said, there are so many unknowns with these rookies that it's a stretch to predict how well they will do in an NFL offensive scheme, for the first time, having never faced NFL secondary talent.
Funny, where are these predictions you speak of?
Quote:
About as optimistic as I can get is being excited to see how well they can actually do.
Optimistic or pessimistic its a free country/free forum. But, imo its hard to arrive at either view without first assess the factors the would lead to feeling one way or another.
You can have all the fun you want doing what you're doing. I certainly don't want to deprive you of that nor discourage you from doing it. I read all of your posts so I learn something from them if I've the ability to understand.
I don't want to stray too much from topic, but the links reinforce what I envisioned the offense to be and I just don't see how Kessler fits that offense.
Just for the record ddubia, the Fly/Go/9 route is the ONE ROUTE all rookies master easily. Many WRs its the only route they are trusted on.
I believe the WR with the best vertical leap is Hall, 41" and is going to be the surprise of camp and maybe our #2.
We will go long if teams crowd the box. We will go long to get Cover 2 w/the 2 safeties playing back. Hue will create space for the playmakers and the run game.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
You can have all the fun you want doing what you're doing. I certainly don't want to deprive you of that nor discourage you from doing it. I read all of your posts so I learn something from them if I've the ability to understand.
Thanks man. Re-reading my post I have to apologize for the tone. Sometimes I get frustrated and need to accept that there will be some unintended disconnect between the direction of where I think a thread/post might go (...and would be glad to shoot the breeze about our WR skillsets as whole) vs how others view it. So my apologies there, it isn't my intent to make predictions as much as it is to look at the personnel and how it could fit based on concepts Hue has used in the past. Currently, my aim was to looking at the personnel involved with run game and how they compare with last years Bengals run game components. Then spread to other units if there is interest (or if I'm bored enough).
Anyhow, would be more then pleased to hear your views if you choose to comment, predictions or otherwise in regards to the OL, RBs (which i'll get to) or run game in general.
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