DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Future of Europe Hangs in Balance as Polls Open in United Kingdom

https://gma.yahoo.com/future-europe-hangs-balance-polls-open-uk-062005979--abc-news-topstories.html


So I haven't seen a lot being talked about this. I think it's a pretty big deal, not necessarily affecting us TOO much, but seeing the future of the EU.

I think this will have a snowball affect on other countries potentially bouncing. I always liked the idea of the EU, but they started going down hill once the EU/IMF started letting bum countries like Greece and other Eastern European countries into the treehouse club.

Germany almost single handily bailed out Greece three times. They also was big on bailing out the PIGS (funny that these corporations wanna run to Ireland, even though their economy isn't doing too hot)

If the people vote for an British exit, I expect the German people to follow suit. They never needed the EU, anyway.

I think it was a horrible mistake allowing these trash EE countries into the EU.

Agree on all points.Parasitic indeed.

GB and others need to be sovereign.

Socialism is great, until you're the ones footing the bill.

Pros and cons to capitalism, and socialism. I think a good economy finds a way to mix the best in both, but that's not a discussion for here at this time.

Umm...Germany is ran on a socialist model. So is other countries that are doing well.

The problem isn't socialism. You can point to any model and find failure and success. Our model here in the US isn't exactly doing well, either.

The problem is globalism. This idea that you're gonna take a bunch of different countries, with completely different cultures, governments, and mannerisms, and put them under one financial banner was a crap shoot.

Globalism works on a small scale. Example: the US.

It doesn't work on a large scale like the EU. It would've/was working when only the strongest countries were in the EU.

But come on..Sloevenia? Why allow them in the eurozone? Stupid.

I hope GB votes to remain in the EU. The initial point of the EU was to try to have a united Europe to prevent another European War from happening. The pros far outweigh the cons. Britain's influence as a world player will always be there as London is a major world economy and they have one of the best militaries in the world. However, they are significantly stronger and their influence is more important as a member of a unified Europe than they would be on their own. We have many friends and family in the UK so for weeks and especially these last few days our facebook wall has almost entirely been about today's vote. I have also read a lot of British media in the past few weeks and their politics have descended into similar lows seen here in the US. Those wanting to leave, as with Trump, are preying on folks lowest common denominator: fear.

They're a member of NATO. Them dropping from the EU isn't gonna affect that even remotely.

True. But, a united Europe is better than all the individual countries going at it alone. Economically and militarily it has to be. Even if the big players are only GB, DER and FR. The overall concept of a united Europe was always going to be tough simply because you have so many different cultures, history and languages. But, in the end if they can get through the hurdles together they will be stronger. I suspect a lot of the "leave" talk is also coming form the angriest and loudest people. Very similar to Trump and his supporters in that regard. I think, when all is said and done there will be a silent majority that come out and vote to remain. In the end, common sense often prevails.

I've always argued that socialism works on a small scale too. A Family is the perfect example of that. You usually have one or two earners, but then everyone else in the family has their own responsibilities to help the group in general. Cities are also a good example. You have fire, police, etc. The bigger you get though, the harder it becomes to maintain, because it's too easy for corruption at the top and laziness at the bottom. When it's smaller, it's much easier to keep everyone else accountable.

I think the US in NATO is similar to the EU situation. We seem to do all the heavy lifting in that regard. Yet other countries just seem fine with sitting back and laughing at us for spending so much of our budget on military.

Seems most of those who want to "leave" the EU are the far right (UKIP) and some in the Conservatives (Tory) Party. Again, the parallels with our own election are frighteningly similar.

Most in both the Labour and Lib Dem Party want to stay.

I also don't understand the point of pushing the immigration issue. Yes, it is a serious issue with the current immigration crisis in Europe (the largest migration of people since WW2). Yes, the countries are considerably smaller than the US, Canada or Australia. GB is approx. the size of Oregon yet, it has 65 million people (Oregon has 4.5 million). However, Immigration is going to happen no matter what. It did before the EU was created and will even if the UK leaves. As long as there are huge divides of wealth and poverty in the world or countries that are safer people will always flee to live in a safer world with potentially better living and working opportunities.

To push this as a major issue is, like we see here in the US, preying on xenophobic fear.

The UK should definitely vote to leave the EU. The EU was originally supposed to be an economic union, with the main reason being eased trade and travel between EU member countries. It has devolved to become an overruling, unelected body of bureaucrats deciding policy for member countries. It has gone as far as the EU determining how many refugees these countries have to take, changing sentences for criminals, and forcing member countries to economically support weaker member countries that should have never been allowed to join. So far, the only thing saving the UK from collapse is the fact they never changed their money from the pound sterling to the euro. Go Brexit!!!

The next European war `will be religious !

All wars are religious.

Because we have totally different military mindsets. Europe uses their military for defense only.

We use it willingly as the world police. Think about it. Every area of conflict, we have some sort of base or military presence there.

Most of it, nobody asked us to, either.

Now, whether that's a good or bad thing isn't the discussion. The discussion is the mindset of two totally different people.

We could absolutely not spend that much on the military. We choose to. They choose not to. We can't fault them for that.

No they aren't

The immigration issue is just a talking point.

The reality is that every country in Europe, because they are mostly tree hugging hippys from the government down to the people lol. The issue that stems is that the EU was making countries take in more than they could handle. That is the biggest problem with regards to immigration.

For example, Slovakia wanted to take in refugees, but they couldn't economically. I mean we're talking about a country who can't even afford to keep their museums open during the summer time because they are so broke. They can handle a few hundred refugees, but not thousands like the EU was trying to push.

They view immigration from an economic standpoint. Here in the US, we view it from mostly a culture standpoint. It's really obvious even though people try to make the weak excuse of finances here in America.

Trust me, I'd be more than happy to pull out of NATO, fold up some of those military bases, and tell Russia "Have at it if you like."

The only reason European countries spend just enough on "defense only" is because they know the US has their back.

Almost every war in Europe had some sort of religious back drop. The only time it won't is if Russia decides to buck up. But they don't have anybody worth a damn to align themselves with Russia if they do go to war. Russia, as far as Europe goes, runs their mouth like North Korea.

Why would you want to pull out of NATO? That's the strongest military alliance on this planet. Those countries also assisted us in the wars in Afghanistan in Iraq.

And on a personal level, I have so many brothers in different militaries around the world, and I have NATO to thank for that. Why would you want Russia to run through Europe?

That makes no sense bro.

In the end, I think they will vote to stay.

I will be surprised and quite frankly shocked if they do vote to leave.

But, my perspective from 6000 miles away may be jaundiced due to having a British wife and our friends and family in the UK who all voted to stay in. Population is also heaviest in the SE region of England and I would expect London will and its satellite towns will vote to stay in. The northern cities, which have more industrial, working class struggling economies as well as the rural/farm land of the far west, may have more folks voting to leave. The northern part of England has always had problems with the lawmakers in London and the "posh" south. There a class divide between the north and the south and as the northern cities are, for the most part, poorer its been harder for the immigrants to assimilate and vice versa. There are fewer opportunities for all, which means the tension is high and this is where the worry lies with young British muslims feeling disaffected from British society. Because of this, for the most part, I think the north is where the biggest divide between leaving and remaining resides and these are the loudest voices being heard. Again, very similar to our own country/American demographics when you look at where Trump and his message is resonating the loudest.

But, we shall see how it goes. Polls close at 7pm GMT, just under 2 hours.

Correction Edit: polls close at 10pm GMT.

I definitely see what you're saying.

My limited travels to London, I noticed a huge presence of people from EE, like Poland. Somebody had told me they started coming over heavy when the UK joined the EU.

I know there's a ton of trade going on between the areas. And I know businesses are gonna suffer from that.

Can you school me on that? I need more info.

There are definitely tensions with EE and yes, once they joined it was a huge influx. The main ones are probably Poland and Romania (that I have heard). Poland because they are skilled and educated...British citizens immediately felt threatened by the Poles who came over and snapped up skilled labor jobs only to send a lot of their earnings back home.

Romania because when they first joined, being a poorer/less educated and less skilled nation at the time, many of the people you immediately saw on the streets of London who were begging/petty crime came from Romania.

This all a sweeping generalization I am only saying what was being said and talked about on the streets of London, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Manchester, Birmingham, Newcastle, Leeds and Dublin. Also, we moved back to the States in '07...so, not sure if this attitude is still prevalent but, it may well be.

Add to it the growing rise and threat of radicalized western muslims who are feared could return and you have a cauldron of xenophobic fear that has reached boiling point in certain regions of the UK. This, I believe, is what UKIP and the far-right are preying on in the UK.

Immigration, as I know you totally agree with, is about people who generally want a better world. I don't, and I know you don't, buy into the fear mongering politics and media that want to demonize people.

There are also many areas of the UK economy and the US economy that depend on immigration simply because they have a shortage of people signing up to do the job. Here it may immediately be manual farm labor that the average American doesn't want to do, there it is their NHS. They simply don't have enough nurses and the system would collapse if it were not for immigrants.

To want a better life after yours was bombed out or where you live is a dead end, violent area with limited to no opportunities for education is totally understandable. Everyone of us in this forum would do the same thing in a heartbeat. But, it still all comes back to "the immigrants". I don't buy it with Trump and I don't buy it with the loud mouth right/far right who want to exit EU.

I think the only legitimate concern regarding the most recent massive influx of immigrants into Europe is, as I stated, the land mass of European countries is small compared to US. The UK is a small but heavily over populated country. The infrastructure already is and will continue to be pushed, no doubt. But, this is a European issue that all countries in the EU need to deal with. The original intent was to hopefully stop a another large scale European war and to have a strong united economic world power. It is now facing its toughest times since its creation. Standing strong and staying unified has to outweigh the cons.

But, I will return to my first point. Immigration existed in the UK long before the EU. I went there in the early 90's and when I went to the Home Office to get my paperwork to stay and work in the country the vast majority of people were: Rwandan, Somalian, Yugoslavian (due to the wars). On top of that were the British/ex-British commonwealth countries that offered less opportunity or whose families were already in the UK: Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi, Caribbean, Nigerian, S. African etc. My point is...as long as their is political and social instability and great gaps of wealth and poverty we will always see people immigrate to places like Europe, USA, Australia, Canada, New Zealand.
Immigration wont disappear if the UK leave the EU.

We may even see a greater migration of people as the weather continues to change. Food, water and flooding will push more people to migrate than we have ever seen. It may not happen in our life time but, I am sure it will in our children's or their children's. But, that is an entirely different topic.

I don't know...just my 2cents.

There's more to it than that, and you know it. One of the biggest problems with the muslim immigrants is that they tend not to integrate into the host country. The whole point of letting people into your country is so they can bring the best of what they have to offer, and for them to blend into the already established society. Otherwise, they are just bringing the problems the left with them. That has worked well in many communities in the US, but now we have a lack of integration also.

the reason why i said its a talking point is because thats not the main reason for the talks of countries bouncing out of the EU.

the main reason is the economy and adding in all these countries that pretty much needed to be bailed out as soon as they entered the eurozone.

immigration and how it relates to the US and Europe is a completely different topic.

This is a load of hogwash. Think about it and get off your high horse.

Imagine you moved to a completely different country with different language and different culture. Lets say...for sake of the argument that we remove religion from the equation and that country you move to is: China.

So, are you going to hook up with the American ex-pats that live there or will you try and fit into that country that speaks a different language and has an entirely different culture? I am willing to bet you would end up hanging out at American bars and restaurants with other Americans talking English and watching American sports. Why? Because you have a common similarity: culture and language.

So, why again do we immediately point fingers at "the immigrants"?

Xenophobia and fear mongering.

The overwhelming majority of immigrants want what you want...a better life.

I disagree, as immigration is part of the financial problems too. When you have an unelected body telling your home government that you have to take in a certain amount of immigrants when your country can't afford them, it comes into the financial element. Those immigrants need housing and money to survive when they arrive in the country, and that burdens the citizen taxpayers of the country.

I would think the main reason is the EU has become an overruling body of unelected officials. It would be like putting the US under the UN and letting them tell us which of our laws we can keep or what we have to change. These countries have lost their sovereignty. To me, it's the same as an overreaching federal government having control over everything the states do.

This only came to light though with the Great Recession. Although Greece is a disaster... Ireland, Spain, Portugal are also worries but, they have also benefitted from the EU. I remember going to Dublin in the early 90's and it was a different place than it was in 2006. Same with Spain and Portugal. I believe, Portugal was once the poorest country in Europe. It definitely benefitted from the EU. Lisbon was once a gritty, crumbly city it looks very different now and Portugal is one of the top vacation spots for Northern Europeans. The Algarve has been transformed (for better or worse).

Maybe you should get out from under the horse, as bad things can happen down there. In your example, let's just say I wanted to be successful, as if I was opening an American restaurant. One of the first things I'd have to do is learn the language, because it's a pain for customers to order if I don't. I would have to learn their ways of doing business, as I'd have to adapt to their laws and ways. In a sense, I'd be better off making it American-Chinese and adapt the food to their pallets.

Do you think for a second that the Chinese government wouldn't have a problem if I started lecturing people on freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and the right keep arms, be secure if my property, and so on? If there was an entire community of my fellow ex-pats doing that, I could see where it would lead to trouble, especially with the current Chinese government. It would be when I tried to turn my area of china into a new America when the real problems would start.

and i disagree. you have a point, but you need to understand that these financial issues were a problem before the whole syrian refugee thing.

like...syrians wasn't a twinkle in anybody's eyes when finances were already becoming major issues within the EU. you have to take timeline into account. you can't just go "immigration" as if it's the main reason.

it's not. not even close.

the only point that is really true is with regards to the unelected officials. but once again, it's less to do with immigration and more to do with the bail outs of countries with little input from local officials( meaning elected national officials of the host country, but who have no influence inside the EU division).

the PIGS got bailed out...and there were no immigration crisis. Greece has been a hell hole way before the immigration nonsense as well.

if you refuse to take timeline into the situation, you're really missing the major reasons bro.

yea there's definitely countries that benefit. Croatia is turning into a hot tourist area. man me and my homey's went to Zagreb in 2010. good god it was so cheap. now it's more expensive, but their country definitely looks really good.

the problem i'm seeing is that these countries that needed to be bailed out were struggling from within; it had very little to do with the eurozone.

however, because the EU plays captain save-em all the time, money is being pulled from every country to bail them out, against the wishes of the people. Thats the reason why countries are thinking about pulling out.

i think Greece was the final straw, too. that whole situation is astonishing

I know the timeline, and I thought it was foolish in the beginning. Seeing as everyone, except for the UK, is on the Euro, the financial problem is not part of this issue. That's actually one of the reasons that the UK never transitioned to the Euro, as their GBP was more valuable, and it still is. I think at the time the GBP was worth 1000s of Francs and worth tens of thousands Lira. The only currency that was close was the German Mark. Unfortunately for Germany, they're going to wind up getting stuck with the bill, when this is over.

I have traveled across America, across Canada and across Europe. I have not seen any body trying to turn any country into their own. Have they brought their own customs, culture, language and food to those countries via pockets of neighborhoods? Of course. Do they speak in their own language? Yes. No different than the Italians or Irish before them.

Personally, I love experiencing diverse cultures in my city. Going to the Notting Hill parade was always a highlight of the year when I lived in London! I also love having the option to eat Cuban, Indian, Japanese or Lebanese food. It sure beats eating hamburgers, hotdogs and pizza every day!

Remember...this is America we are the melting pot society that has and should always be that beacon of light for people all over the world. As long as we are people will always want to come here. We should welcome and embrace diversity.

That said, and slightly different topic but, what I think scares people about diversity is what is beginning to happen to Texas. Texas, as it changes and diversifies, will one day be a blue state. Absolutely no doubt about it. It will happen. And, when it does the Republican party as we currently know it, which doesn't seem to embrace diversity, will disappear.

Yep. After the war Croatia and the Dalmatian coast were once Europe's best kept secret. Today it is the hot spot for the rich and famous.

finances aren't part of this issue?

do you even know how much money the UK contributes to the EU?

hint: it's in the billions. finances is absolutely the major issue for this Brexit.

don't forget, the reason they kept their currency and definitely want out is because joining the eurozone puts a major hit on one of their biggest trade partners:

China.

this is a financial problem for Britain. everything else is just extra fuel to the fire bro. it's obvious as day.

Swish, what does your wife think about the EU and Britain's vote today?

she doesn't like British people so she doesn't care.

if you was to ask her if the country was France or Poland, she'd tell you the same thing.

i thought she was being kinda superior( haha, know what i mean? nazi joke) but....racism in europe is on a completely different level than here in the US. you know that.

and just to clarify the trade topic, erik:

Britain would rather trade independently with other countries than the one size fits all the EU tries to push on people.

that can't be understated enough.