DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Future of Europe Hangs in Balance as Polls Open in United Kingdom

I have family that live in Parma. I would not call their neighborhood ghetto.

People I've known from the surrounding suburbs of Parma, I grew up in Parma and live here in the summer, always said "Parma is trash! It's now the ghetto. Nothing but dangerous people living in Parma now", and other ridiculous things.

An area only gets "dangerous" if you go in there looking for trouble, or just act like you want to make a scene.

I havent seen much of Parma so I dont know how most of it goes. My sister and brother in law live in a middle class nice neighborhood. I dont consider it ghetto.

To me, ghetto is when you get off the freeway downtown and stop at the gas station. And there are sketchy looking black dudes with three teeth asking me for money or cigarettes. And the surrounding streets has panhandlers and ancient apartments with gates around it.

Its a big difference.

It seems to me that there is a huge, enormous, gigantic battle going on between nationalism and globalism in many countries .... including our own.

It also seems that globalism has helped those with the top level of resources and income, but its level of help for those below that level is rather questionable.

It also seems that most politicians are in favor of globalism over nationalism. Politicians like the idea of a global economy. Now, there is something to be said for global economic overlap and trade, as it intertwines economies, and likely prevents countries from lashing out against one another in a war, because they would harm their own economies. (and the 2 biggest wars of the 20th century were started over economic reasons) However, the little guy is getting screwed in the global economy, at least in the more developed countries/economies. Manufacturing is history in the US, for example. People want to complain about manufacturing leaving the US, but it almost has to in order to compete globally.

I have been in favor of free trade, but I think that most of our trade agreements need to be re-examined. Unfortunately, overall, the pluses seem to be helping, mainly, those at the very top .... while the middle and bottom are struggling. I think that we need to look at every one of our trade agreements, and see whether they are a net help overall ..... or a net hurt. As much as I disagree with Trump on so many things, I do agree with him on this.

Man why is Wales holding the gun.....and why did we shoot Cornwall?!

Facebook was interesting. My friends are split. Ultimately I think the leavers were just plain fed up of open borders, dero Europeans coming in claiming welfare and sending the money home and the buckling infrastructure like the NHS and just down with their own lot. I think they had a notion that Britain will be "Great" again and their lives will improve. Unfortunately they've probably traded in one load of self serving beuracratic fat cats for new ones with different accents and their standing, status and conditions will still be the same. That's usually how these things go.

And of course the dudes who wanted to stay call the other lot racist fascists. A buddy of mine had to delete a thread yesterday on Facebook after a lynch mob went after his mum because she voted out. We can laugh now of course

I think it is a good move.

Why so many are for consolidated government is beyond me.

SOOO They finally told the wankers to bugger off.

It doesn't sound like you noticed, but I'll point out that in my post the only thing I stated as fact was that I had heard reports about these "no go" zones. I also admitted that I wasn't as knowledgeable about the layout over there and asked for PDX's input.

I'm not sure how I could have been more open to being educated on that topic?

Well, for politicians and the "elites" it continues to consolidate power and secure their station in life.

As for those beneath them? I think it's because what is demonstrated these days as Progressive Liberalism is a really a twisted perversion of Classical Liberalism. They think that equality is the same as equal outcome and gov't is the vehicle by which they can force it to happen.

Don't take it wrong bro, I was just extra hyped yesterday.

That's what happens when you add that dust to your herb man...

It was laced without my knowledge. I've been fleeced

I'd call the police and file a Fraud report...

Bro, you ever responded to a 911 call from somebody who willingly ratted themselves out just to bust the other person they are pissed off at?

I'm trying to think of one like that, but at the moment I can't think of one. Crackheads usually don't have a problem admitting to other crimes in order to make whoever they are pissed at look worse.

Most of our home invasions are drug dealers getting ripped (and no, I don't mean by our SWAT team). We went to one a couple years ago where the suspects busted in, put everyone face down, busted up the walls and floor, and made off with 20+ lbs of weed. The victims prior to calling 911, took the large duffel bag that used to hold the weed and (attempted) to hide it... by throwing it on the roof of the front of the single story house, about 6 feet from the doorway.

Most of our dirt hotel "robberies" are a result of a) the prostitute being shorted by her john and claiming he robbed her or b) the pimp and his boys beat the john's ass for the rest of the cash an he calls to say he was robbed.

Oh, and if you like to smoke weed or have warrants, keep yo baby's momma happy. Cuz if you ain't keeping up on your end, she'll rat you out in a heartbeat lol

I've also had a few people walk up and say
-"Officer, here's my ID. Can you check to see if I have any warrants?"
-"You do understand that if you do, I have to take you to jail right now?"
-"I understand. I just want to make sure"

This is civilization as we know it

At the end of the day it is all about perception, isn't it? What one person finds a scary part of town another probably doesn't.

Example...people here talk about a time before gentrification when North Portland was a "no go area". I am pretty sure that in those days it was no doubt rougher than it is now but still nothing compared to other areas of America that have legit problems with gangs and crime. Portland may have its sleazy underbelly from being a port town and there are a lot of drugs but, I have never felt intimidated in any part of the city. Out of my comfort zone perhaps, but not fearful of my life. I'm sure others would disagree and it all comes down to perception.

The only couple times I felt intimidated or somewhat on edge in England was: Peckham. A poor, rough neighborhood of South London and in Manchester. Peckham is definitely rough. No idea if it has been gentrified since but, it is where that Army guy was hacked up in the streets w/a machete a few years ago via a couple radicalized African muslims. Manchester is an edgy city. At least it was when I was there. It has a young element too as it is prob England's 2nd cultural city w/music, art and a big University but, it has an edge to it where I felt my "city antennae" were very much on when I was leaving a pub late at night. Still, not a no-go area tho. Just need to be aware of your surroundings and you will be fine. Kinda the same in most places once travels or lives.

That said, I have definitely felt more of a danger aspect in my travels across the US.

Clearly, there is only one sensible and reasonable solution to all of this.

We adopt Great Britain as our 51st state.
Then they can revolt against us and throw our Super Big Gulps into a harbor, completing the cycle, and all will be right with the World.

Sounds fair...

Serious question, if I wanted to invest in the British Pound/Sterling whilst all this is going on, what is the speculation of when it will recover enough to make a profit?

NO WAY. Then we will have to watch soccer on Sundays.

I totally get what you are saying. I guess maybe my question about the "no go" areas is more nuanced than I realized. I get that there are areas where "you don't walk alone at night". Obviously every place has them. What I'm wanting to know is if there are areas settled by immigrants that British authorities purposefully no longer exert well, their authority. Take the worst part of Chicago or what have you... the police will still respond (maybe with more backup before they go, or to only higher priority calls), but they still go.

IF this kind of thing is taking place, in essence British authorities are giving up sovereignty. From that perspective I can certainly understand why people would be against further immigration. And I don't think these kinds of places would have to be rampant. I think all it would take is for one person to radicalize behind the "closed doors" of the neighborhood and commit a high profile act and people are going to say "What the hell is going on? Why is that being allowed to happen?"

Does that make sense?

I just think painting anti-immigration sentiments as nothing but racism or xenophobia is a cheap way to shut down a discussion on the matter. Take Arizona... before you even get to skin color as a reason, you still have ranchers who have their livestock killed, property broken in to and damaged, trash strewn everywhere, bodies of people who died of exposure and other unnatural causes, rampant human trafficking, mass trespassing (people get pissed if one or 2 neighborhood kids cut through their yard all the time... imagine several hundred people every other night)... and now we have signs posted by our own gov't telling American citizens they shouldn't go to certain areas of Federal parks because the drug smugglers are rampant and dangerous in those areas.

Mix all that in there with our own govt's ability to significantly curb all that, but CHOOSES not to...

People are going to have legit reasons to feel some sort of way about the issue. I'd have to imagine that the British people have legitimate issues of their own that makes them feel the same way as we do.

it's a two way street though.

think about it, from the american perspective, we ONLY talk about how arabs treat the british.

we rarely have the discussion about how the british treat the arabs. remember, there's always two sides of the story.

the fact that we simply do not have the issues with arabs here in America like europe does. i mean it ain't even close bro. hell, America pretty much represents every nationality on this planet.

and yes, we have our own crap going on here, definitely. but specifically with arabs?

sorry, but nobody can making any sort of valid claim that we have any where NEAR the problem with arabs like europe does. they come here and love it.

Here's some reasoning on the leave vote.

Oh I'm sure it's a two way street. I remember several years ago where France tried to make it illegal for women to wear burkas. I thought that was a stupid ass move.

I would also imagine that at the height of the British Empire not everyone of their colonial subjects were treated fairly (we sure weren't).

And I would agree that we don't have problems with Arabs here like Europe does. While we do have some radical Imams here in the States, we also have many Muslims who have reached out to their communities and become a productive part of them. They've been willing and able to assimilate and become a part of America, without giving up who they are fundamentally.

I can't answer this for sure as I am not a cop in Britain. But, my strong feeling is that just as you described the police in the worst parts of Chicago...if an incident happens in a rough, predominately Muslim part of an English city I am sure the police will respond swiftly and appropriately. Remember, it is all a myth that the Police in Britain don't have guns. Of course they do. They have a tactical respond unit with flak jackets and semi-automatics. The average police bobby on the street may not have a gun on his hip but, they are also more symbolic. The British still have police beats walking the street as a presence. If something serious came in the armed tactical SWAT team would be there immediately.

But, I have also read about "no go areas" for our own police in areas of Camden, E.St. Louis and parts of Detroit. These areas often don't have basic services like garbage being collected or street lights. So, who knows.

And Erik...sorry, but that video is absolute bollocks. As we are discussing Britain I trust you know what that means. Fear, fear, fear. This is exactly how they sold the Referendum and people bought into it. Now the implications of leaving the EU are sinking in and hitting home with the fear of a recession those who were not educated enough on the cause and effects of leaving the EU are discussing a 2nd Referendum so they can take their vote back. This would, of course, defeat the purpose of a democratic society. What we are seeing is the downfall of a free election/democracy, I suppose. Not to mention the willingness to educate oneself.

What particularly about that video is bollocks? Milo is clearly gay, so he's not pretending to be someone he isn't. He cited polling about moderate Muslim beliefs towards homosexuality. In many of his speeches/videos he often states that as a gay man he is deathly afraid of what are considered moderate Muslims and qualifies it by pointing out that gay people are killed in Muslim countries described as "moderate".

So yeah, I agree with you, it is fear.

For arguments sake, if MiloDawg was on the board, what would you say to him to refute his fears or prove to him it's all a do about nothing?

I don't care about his sexuality. That has nothing to do with it and it is completely irrelevant. It is stoking fear and it is completely biased.

For every video that is anti this or anti that there are videos refuting it. I am sure there is a video of a stylish person standing in the middle of nowhere saying the complete opposite.

Look...people will believe what they want to believe and I can't change that. I know where I stand on the issue. I do not buy into the fear that is being spread to promote some other agenda. Are there radicalized people out there who want to wage war? Of course there are. But, they would also say we initially brought the war to them. Also, out of 1.6 billion followers...even if there were 1 million who want jihad (which there are not...most estimates are far below that) that is still a tiny percentage of a huge population that don't want anything to do with it and hang their heads in horror and shame every time something happens and it is confirmed to be Islamic terrorism.

Of course his sexuality matters in this case. He is an openly gay may, and gays are treated mercilessly in many Muslim countries.

Please watch this video. This video has turned up on many YouTube channels with the main part of the content unedited. However, I believe this is the original source of the video and the amazing thing is that this exact answer has been used in both pro-Islam sources such as this one and anti-Islam sources as well. Watch and you will understand.

Start at around 2:25 if you want to skip some of the lead-up.

Again, this referendum had nothing to do with sexuality. The Muslim population blending into the west has nothing to do with sexuality. To make this into one man's rant about his own sexuality and identity has nothing at all to do with the larger issues at stake or even what he is addressing in the video.

Also, in certain segments of our own country the LGBT community are treated horrifically. So, perhaps best we look into our own mirror before we point fingers at others.

I do find it interesting to see religious folks who do not cut their beliefs with water, who actually obey what their God has instructed them to do and are willing to stand their ground in the face of the entire world. Hope of assimilation is futile as they will smile and nod in agreement but hold fast to their faith.

I also find it interesting that Muslims as a people are currently very successful worldwide and their influence is growing and not in decline like Christianity and Judaism.

Not being one of them makes me fear their rise but I find it interesting none the less.

The referendum itself was obviously not directly about sexuality, but more broadly, about many topics involving the economy and culture in the UK. We're specifically talking about the video Erik posted where the gay speaker says this a couple minutes in:

"As a gay man, I'm not so worried about GDP, I'm not even principally concerned with British sovereignty, I'm worried more about the influx of a culture that wants me dead." He then goes onto talk about the massacre in Orlando and other things. So yes it seems like it's a fair topic of conversation here.

Did you watch the video that I posted? What do you think of the large crowd of Muslims gathered that all raised their hands when asked by the speaker if they held various views that would be considered extreme by western standards but are mainstream in Islam?

So, since everyone is basing their argument off the one gay guy who believes like they do....

Does that mean the white guys who speak about white privilege and supremacy are also right?

Just using the same correlation and logic as y'all are.

I mean you guys did the same thing with the confederate flag thing. Y'all found the handful of black people that supported the flag and went "see!!! See!!! Even the black guy agrees with me!!!"

I don't think anybody is basing their argument off one gay guy's opinion. It's just one data point and a small factor overall. Quite frankly, being both pro-Islamic immigration and pro-gay rights are awfully hard positions to reconcile.

He's definitely being used to validate opinions

You're missing my entire point my friend. This isn't about saying "Look PDX! I found ONE gay guy and therefor it proves I'm right!"

You keep asserting that there aren't any legitimate immigration concerns and anyone citing that as being the reason for voting for Brexit is being racist or xenophobic is completely denying the reality of other people.

Clearly more than half of a country voted to leave the EU solely due to concerns about LGBT persecution.

But this one man as you put it, is representative of one group of people out of many concerned about immigration. His concern is his life being at risk should the same moderate Muslims who stand by and watch gays get thrown from building roof tops with a belief of "they deserved it" come to his country in large enough numbers that they become part of the authority.

For others it could be property owners who have seen neighborhoods in decline after poor, unskilled, unemployed people move in.

For others it can be that they or a loved one was victimized by one of these immigrants and the authorities response was lack luster or non-existent.

Maybe it's the bloke barely making it paycheck to paycheck who sees the immigrant on welfare rolls that he can't qualify for living a better quality of life than he is.

When you start adding these things together it becomes more than just "one man". yes, it does come down to perspective, but saying something is perspective, it doesn't disqualify it from being someone's reality.

And all these issues and concerns can be managed and mitigated. The problem comes when a citizen sees that their own gov't willfully refuses to take the basic steps to protect them. That's a very difficult thing to rationalize for most people.

No, I never once said there were not legitimate concerns about immigration. In fact, I pointed out one of the biggest concern is probably more of strain on the social services and infrastructure due to the over population of a tiny country. What I do not believe is a legitimate worry or fear that there are vast numbers of immigrants who are "rapists, terrorists etc." as some language has come out saying. This is appeasing to fear politics and no different than Trump and his awful statements about the Mexican immigrants.

Immigration existed before the EU and it will continue to exist. The reason for immigration initially began to re-build the cities after the war. Citizens of the British commonwealth were offered citizenship to move to Britain to work to rebuild the country and now people want them out. Immigration now exists due to family already living there, escaping persecution, war, lack of food, lack of opportunity etc. People will always migrate to where they feel it is better. If you and I lived in Honduras or El Salvador where the drug cartel and gangs are so vicious we would do whatever it takes to get to the USA.

Also, keep in mind the worry is not really the "new immigrant" per se. Yes, they go on about people slipping through the net undocumented to cause havoc. But, in reality the biggest fear is the homegrown radicalized British Muslim. The person who was born and raised in the country and is possibly several generations British. More in common really with modern Britain than Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran or Syria. Why is this radicalization happening in some areas? Well, lets look at our own country for an example: visit poor, depressed white areas of, say, Appalachia and you see people doing desperate things who have little opportunity, education or hope. Same with our poorest African American communities, Latino and on the Native reservations. Crime and addiction is high in these areas and you can argue that many have not bought into the system or society. People will do whatever they can to survive but, if they have no faith in the system or they are demonized it just adds to more dysfunction and dropping out of society.

This is what is happening in certain pockets of Britain and Europe. There is little hope or opportunity. Add to it religion and the xenophobic fear that has erupted and you have a growing disaffection with feeling or wanting to be "British". This is the biggest problem facing MI6, British police and the CIA/homeland Security as they are British or European citizens with passports who can freely travel in and out of Europe, USA, Canada, Australia, NZ etc.

Fair points.

And allow me to apologize for over stating your position on the subject.

I try so hard to be tolerant of all religion and lifestyles. Islam and the Muslims are by far one of my biggest struggles in this respect. I am sorry world but I struggle to see a logical answer to coexistence with a people and/or religion that is so divisive. The video Huas posted reinforces that for me.

I absolutely do not want a Trump like ban on all Muslims, but with that said, referring to the video Haus posted again, I do not want "those people" as my neighbors or living close to me and being in the lives of my family. How sad is that?

I am sure they are basically good people but our beliefs couldn't be any more different on most topics. How do I justify the risk that one of these people will act on their beliefs and possibly hurt somebody that I love? How do I justify my desire to not have these people in my life?

I can't simply hate a person based on their religion. I don't really fear them. BUT I DO FEAR THEIR BELIEFS.

This is a horrible thing to me. I don't want to hate, fear or loath anyone... But I find the very core of the religion disgusting and despise the radicals that act out on it. How am I supposed to deal with that as a person who doesn't want to feel this way?

OldcoldDawg...Christianity has folks who pervert the religion too. I immediately think of the people who stand there with placards saying "God Hates This" God Hates That" or the ones who are so filled with hate they willing to kill in the name of their religion. We seem to overlook these people in our own society or we make excuses and point fingers instead at Islam because we do not understand it. There is no excuse and some of the far right Christians in the US are no better than the Taliban or those spouting horrible rants in the video. But, we hate what we fear and we fear what we do not understand.

In the end, many religions seem to have been completely perverted to benefit a few very brainwashed, hateful and uneducated people. But, it can't be this warped mentality that speaks for 1.6 billion or even the 2.2 billion Christians. I say this as a non-believer.

Judaism seems arguably the most peaceful of the major religions. The Hebrew Bible rejects violence and promotes peace. They have also often been more victims than instigators. But, of course there are examples of violence in their history too.

Buddhism too as it seems to offer more insightful, philosophical, mediative self found peace rather than forcing ones will on others. However, the Muslim minority in Southeast Asia would argue against the stereotype that Buddhism is a peaceful religion.

Tell us more of what is right and what is wrong, how we should think and act as followers of the one true God.
As a non-believer that is.