I'm fairly sure many of my detractors on this board will expect me to jump in and defend these whackjobs, but they are just as guilty of thuggery as the rest of the 'protesters' that pull these kind of stunts. The idiot doing donuts in the road and standing in the street should have been arrested, and since I don't know what the fireworks laws are in SF, I can't comment on that. If that was illegal, they should have been arrested for that too.
If he was running toward them with no weapon, couldn't they have just tasered him?
I mean, isn't escalation of force taught in the police force?
I had this Iraqi down range run toward our convoy. I threw s Gatorade bottle, hit him in the face, and he stopped.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
If he was running toward them with no weapon, couldn't they have just tasered him?
I mean, isn't escalation of force taught in the police force?
I had this Iraqi down range run toward our convoy. I threw s Gatorade bottle, hit him in the face, and he stopped.
I guess you didn't read the whole story. He rushed at them and they thought he was pulling a weapon. I would assume that not every cop is willing to bet his life on the chance a gatorade bottle will stop someone.
Noble stopped his car at a Chevron gas station, and police said he then got out of his car with one of his arms behind his back, according to the Fresno Bee. The officers said that Noble yelled that he hated his life, before moving his arm toward the small of his back, the newspaper reports.
Two officers opened fire, striking Noble four times. Noble died later at a nearby hospital.
That is from a different article. It kind of sounds like he committed suicide by cop.
But far too often, we hear "I thought he had a weapon" and it magically absolves the shooter of any wrong doing, in general.
That seems to be the go to line of police officers. "I thought he had a weapon", "I feared for my life" "he went for my gun".
Sorry, but this guy didn't do anything to warrant his life being lost. Locked up? Sure.
Defend it if you want. I won't.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
But far too often, we hear "I thought he had a weapon" and it magically absolves the shooter of any wrong doing, in general.
That seems to be the go to line of police officers. "I thought he had a weapon", "I feared for my life" "he went for my gun".
Sorry, but this guy didn't do anything to warrant his life being lost. Locked up? Sure.
Defend it if you want. I won't.
The cops had body cameras, so we'll see it eventually. I know if I was a cop, I wouldn't want to wait for the first bullet to miss me before I could take action.
If I a cop already has his weapons drawn, then he has more than enough reaction time to see somebody pulling a weapon out or not. And more than enough time to shoot first before someone fires their weapon at him.
This whole article reads as if the cop already had the weapon pointed out at the guy.
I'm not even law enforcement, and the MP's taught us that in the military for EOF, don't shoot unless you see a confirmed SOMETHINGS in his hand.
I mean damn, SOMETHING. I don't care if it's a black colored brick. Have SOMETHING before firing at a target.
We're talking trained vs untrained, here.
This was a senseless death. Could've been handled way better.
If you're too scared to do your job properly, quit.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
I never understood the whole blocking traffic thing. Ok so something bad happens or there is something that a group doesn't agree with, let's go block traffic and inconvenience a whole bunch of people who had nothing to do with it? That doesn't make any sense. And 'inconvenience' doesn't really do the situation justice, especially if emergency vehicles can't get through or something along those lines.
I never understood the whole blocking traffic thing. Ok so something bad happens or there is something that a group doesn't agree with, let's go block traffic and inconvenience a whole bunch of people who had nothing to do with it? That doesn't make any sense. And 'inconvenience' doesn't really do the situation justice, especially if emergency vehicles can't get through or something along those lines.
Well, it's an awareness campaign... Considering we heard about it, I'd think it worked.
I never understood the whole blocking traffic thing. Ok so something bad happens or there is something that a group doesn't agree with, let's go block traffic and inconvenience a whole bunch of people who had nothing to do with it? That doesn't make any sense. And 'inconvenience' doesn't really do the situation justice, especially if emergency vehicles can't get through or something along those lines.
Well, it's an awareness campaign... Considering we heard about it, I'd think it worked.
If I were one of his friends who wanted to promote awareness, I wouldn't do it in such a way that it would inconvenience a bunch of strangers. There are better ways to honor the memory of a friend. For example, I have seen others start social media and GoFundMe campaigns to raise money for the family.
I never understood the whole blocking traffic thing. Ok so something bad happens or there is something that a group doesn't agree with, let's go block traffic and inconvenience a whole bunch of people who had nothing to do with it? That doesn't make any sense. And 'inconvenience' doesn't really do the situation justice, especially if emergency vehicles can't get through or something along those lines.
Well, it's an awareness campaign... Considering we heard about it, I'd think it worked.
If I were one of his friends who wanted to promote awareness, I wouldn't do it in such a way that it would inconvenience a bunch of strangers. There are better ways to honor the memory of a friend. For example, I have seen others start social media and GoFundMe campaigns to raise money for the family.
That's not a good way to raise awareness at all.
Blocking traffic is way more productive. It's even got Erik's attention.
Mission accomplished
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Here's a thought: what does it say about society where a bunch of guys can loiter in the street and block traffic and they get rewarded for it? Ideally the cops should come and break the thing up; those who don't comply get arrested. No awareness would be raised because mainstream media would be off covering something more important than low level unrest.
But ok, their strategy paid off. Their small chance of getting on mainstream media hit, and they did indeed raise some awareness for their cause. Now what? What do they do with that? Are they trying to raise money? Change laws? I watched the video and read the article in the OP and I still don't know. Now that I think about it, not only do I not know their cause, but I already forgot everybodys' names and the city that it took place in.
But far too often, we hear "I thought he had a weapon" and it magically absolves the shooter of any wrong doing, in general.
That seems to be the go to line of police officers. "I thought he had a weapon", "I feared for my life" "he went for my gun".
Sorry, but this guy didn't do anything to warrant his life being lost. Locked up? Sure.
Defend it if you want. I won't.
The thing about a weapon is that so many things can be used as a weapon, including fists. One clean, hard punch can knock any man out, then your head hits the pavement and you're really messed up. That's why that freaking knockout game is so dangerous. All the moreso if you're a cop and somebody can then take your gun.
In any case, it's hard to speak in generalities. Video has a way of making things a lot clearer. What is the standard protocol when a driver is pulled over, then gets out of his car and charges at the officer? If I did that, I would figure there would be a good chance that I'd get shot but I'm not going to go out and test that, ya know? I can't say the officer was in the right or the wrong without knowing more.
Just like everything else, a mini movement starts. This gets added into the long list of senseless deaths by cops. Fuel to the fire.
It's easy to talk as if it doesn't make sense to you. You obviously have never lost somebody you love to a cop, whether they deserved it or not.
If my daughters got popped like this, best believe I'm blocking I-90 to bring more awareness if I feel like the cause is being ignored.
Protest is protest right? Just because you don't believe in the cause doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
Last edited by Swish; 06/27/1604:54 PM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
But far too often, we hear "I thought he had a weapon" and it magically absolves the shooter of any wrong doing, in general.
That seems to be the go to line of police officers. "I thought he had a weapon", "I feared for my life" "he went for my gun".
Sorry, but this guy didn't do anything to warrant his life being lost. Locked up? Sure.
Defend it if you want. I won't.
The thing about a weapon is that so many things can be used as a weapon, including fists. One clean, hard punch can knock any man out, then your head hits the pavement and you're really messed up. That's why that freaking knockout game is so dangerous. All the moreso if you're a cop and somebody can then take your gun.
In any case, it's hard to speak in generalities. Video has a way of making things a lot clearer. What is the standard protocol when a driver is pulled over, then gets out of his car and charges at the officer? If I did that, I would figure there would be a good chance that I'd get shot but I'm not going to go out and test that, ya know? I can't say the officer was in the right or the wrong without knowing more.
So, somebody uses fist, the appropriate response is shoot?
40 is right, this country has gone soft. A bunch of babies supposedly "protect and serve" can't even physically defend themselves in melee.
Maybe they should lay off the donuts.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
40 is right, this country has gone soft. A bunch of babies supposedly "protect and serve" can't even physically defend themselves in melee.
The Country has gone soft but I defend the Police and the impossible job they have to do these days. Damned if they do and Damned if they don't. I would not want to be a Cop.
However, if they are gonna start shooting unarmed White people, we will need to crack down.
But far too often, we hear "I thought he had a weapon" and it magically absolves the shooter of any wrong doing, in general.
That seems to be the go to line of police officers. "I thought he had a weapon", "I feared for my life" "he went for my gun".
Sorry, but this guy didn't do anything to warrant his life being lost. Locked up? Sure.
Defend it if you want. I won't.
The thing about a weapon is that so many things can be used as a weapon, including fists. One clean, hard punch can knock any man out, then your head hits the pavement and you're really messed up. That's why that freaking knockout game is so dangerous. All the moreso if you're a cop and somebody can then take your gun.
In any case, it's hard to speak in generalities. Video has a way of making things a lot clearer. What is the standard protocol when a driver is pulled over, then gets out of his car and charges at the officer? If I did that, I would figure there would be a good chance that I'd get shot but I'm not going to go out and test that, ya know? I can't say the officer was in the right or the wrong without knowing more.
So, somebody uses fist, the appropriate response is shoot?
40 is right, this country has gone soft. A bunch of babies supposedly "protect and serve" can't even physically defend themselves in melee.
Maybe they should lay off the donuts.
I did not say that. You know what I mean. Sometimes it is not so easy to say what is a weapon and even in the case of fist fighting, things can vary drastically. If one person gets sucker punched and starts getting pummeled, that would likely justify lethal force. An argument that results in a punch being thrown, not so much (I'm not talking about anything having to do with cops here, just in general)
In some cases, officers can be justified in shooting even if the person did not have a gun or weapon on them. Do you agree with that? I do not know if this is the case here because I just read a few lines about it and haven't seen any video, testimony, or anything.
It's funny because people on this board will be quick to throw any other demographic under the bus, but as soon as y'all see the word 'cop', it's "let's wait til all the facts come out"
Zero consistency.
Never mind. Y'all are consistently inconsistent.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Just like everything else, a mini movement starts. This gets added into the long list of senseless deaths by cops. Fuel to the fire.
It's easy to talk as if it doesn't make sense to you. You obviously have never lost somebody you love to a cop, whether they deserved it or not.
If my daughters got popped like this, best believe I'm blocking I-90 to bring more awareness if I feel like the cause is being ignored.
Protest is protest right? Just because you don't believe in the cause doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
That's all fine and well but I still think there are better ways to voice your frustration than blocking traffic and general rioting. The general public would also probably have more sympathy for the cause too if the protesters acted more reasonably (for example, see the kill cops, right now video, or the pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon video, etc.)
Bro, this guy wasn't getting sucker punched. He was running toward the cop. There are certain situations where it might be justified. Sure. Like if the cop was getting jumped. Then I can very understand pulling the gun and popping someone.
But not in this case. Not even remotely bro
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
It's funny because people on this board will be quick to throw any other demographic under the bus, but as soon as y'all see the word 'cop', it's "let's wait til all the facts come out"
Just like everything else, a mini movement starts. This gets added into the long list of senseless deaths by cops. Fuel to the fire.
It's easy to talk as if it doesn't make sense to you. You obviously have never lost somebody you love to a cop, whether they deserved it or not.
If my daughters got popped like this, best believe I'm blocking I-90 to bring more awareness if I feel like the cause is being ignored.
Protest is protest right? Just because you don't believe in the cause doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
That's all fine and well but I still think there are better ways to voice your frustration than blocking traffic and general rioting. The general public would also probably have more sympathy for the cause too if the protesters acted more reasonably (for example, see the kill cops, right now video, or the pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon video, etc.)
Would the general public even know if these protests weren't on the roads?
Would this had gotten as much attention then?
One could argue that people wouldn't have the ability to be sympathetic on a situation they weren't even aware of in the first place.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Yes and I want to defend them! They have the hardest job in America as our Society crumbles and segments of that Society think our laws do not apply to them.
We are a Nation of Laws, not of Thuggery! The strong do not rule in America but they will if they are allowed to intimidate others and break the laws.
Bro, this guy wasn't getting sucker punched. He was running toward the cop. There are certain situations where it might be justified. Sure. Like if the cop was getting jumped. Then I can very understand pulling the gun and popping someone.
But not in this case. Not even remotely bro
What I read is that he was running toward the cop [edit: and refused to show his hands] after being pulled over for driving erratically. I actually don't know how I feel about that. It does seem like the officer could have gone into hand to hand combat or used a taser if he had one. Like I said earlier, I don't know what the protocol is on this but if I did that, I would think there is a good chance I would get shot too. Whether or not that's right, again, I don't know, but I have always thought that and it never really bothered me before. And I still think the video would shine a lot of light on this.
I never understood the whole blocking traffic thing.
Go stage a protest out in the middle of a field and see who shows up to cover it.. nobody.
Quote:
Ok so something bad happens or there is something that a group doesn't agree with, let's go block traffic and inconvenience a whole bunch of people who had nothing to do with it? That doesn't make any sense.
It makes perfect sense, those are the people you want to be aware of whatever injustice it is that you are protesting and the only way to get their attention, is to inconvenience them in some way.
I was watching these badass cops in Florida. Dudes tackle like freaking linebackers. They look like they're built for melee combat. Shooting second.
I got no problem with that. Whoop my ass, please. But just don't YOLO shoot people.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Bro, this guy wasn't getting sucker punched. He was running toward the cop. There are certain situations where it might be justified. Sure. Like if the cop was getting jumped. Then I can very understand pulling the gun and popping someone.
But not in this case. Not even remotely bro
According to the second article I linked to above, he was moving toward the cops with his hand behind his back and he shouted something about hating his life, then he moved his hand down toward his belt.. that's where people carry guns. I still think he was committing suicide and KNEW he would get shot if he did that.
I'm not on either side really, but if somebody is acting irrationally, resisting arrest, evading the police, coming at the police after being told to stop, whatever... I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to the cop until somebody proves otherwise.
I never understood the whole blocking traffic thing.
Go stage a protest out in the middle of a field and see who shows up to cover it.. nobody.
Quote:
Ok so something bad happens or there is something that a group doesn't agree with, let's go block traffic and inconvenience a whole bunch of people who had nothing to do with it? That doesn't make any sense.
It makes perfect sense, those are the people you want to be aware of whatever injustice it is that you are protesting and the only way to get their attention, is to inconvenience them in some way.
I think that how a group represents a cause goes a long way toward determining the effectiveness of it. At some extremes, a group can actually be detrimental to its own cause if their behavior is off-putting enough. I tend to think that blocking freeways and disrupting traffic falls into this category and know many people who feel the same way.
I think that how a group represents a cause goes a long way toward determining the effectiveness of it. At some extremes, a group can actually be detrimental to its own cause if their behavior is off-putting enough. I tend to think that blocking freeways and disrupting traffic falls into this category and know many people who feel the same way.
I agree with you. I used to live in the DC area, from time to time people would protest by blocking a bridge from Virginia into DC. This didn't cause a disruption, it caused chaos. It caused hundreds of thousands of people to be late for work or where ever they were going... I assure you that the majority of those hundreds of thousands of people ended up developing a dislike for the cause more than they developed a sympathy for it. In general, the people just wanted the disruption to stop, so the protesters would at least end up getting the attention of the government, which didn't want hundreds of thousands of people calling and writing to make this crap stop.
Bro, this guy wasn't getting sucker punched. He was running toward the cop. There are certain situations where it might be justified. Sure. Like if the cop was getting jumped. Then I can very understand pulling the gun and popping someone.
But not in this case. Not even remotely bro
The cops don't know if this guy was jacked up on drugs or just insane. We've all heard what crazies on PCP can do when they're amped up. If you're dumb enough to attempt attacking a cop, you get what you get. You'd better hope your cop is one of those LBs.
Far as I am concerned anyone who attacks a cop deserves whatever else happens to them. I say that while at the same time hating cops for all the laws they break and abuses of power they commit. At some point people will eventually learn to teach their kids to say yes sir politely and follow freaking instructions. 99 out of 100 times if you treat a cop with respect and don't act with attitude they will relax and not be that bad. Even if they are a bad cop it only makes things worse to act like a punk or idiot. I have always believed that stupid gets what stupid deserves...
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
Bro, this guy wasn't getting sucker punched. He was running toward the cop. There are certain situations where it might be justified. Sure. Like if the cop was getting jumped. Then I can very understand pulling the gun and popping someone.
But not in this case. Not even remotely bro
According to the second article I linked to above, he was moving toward the cops with his hand behind his back and he shouted something about hating his life, then he moved his hand down toward his belt.. that's where people carry guns. I still think he was committing suicide and KNEW he would get shot if he did that.
Pretty much this.
Swish, it's not about being wimps or babies or too scared to the job. There's only ONE reason why people reach behind their back or in to their waistband and purposefully keep their hands out of view. It's to make the cop think they have a deadly weapon, usually a gun. That's it. You said a cop who already has his gun drawn and pointed should be still have plenty of time to allow that clearly uncooperative person to pull whatever they have from behind their back, recognize it for what it is, then pull the trigger. Do you know about human reaction times? How long it takes for someone to read, recognize, and react? As a combat vet I know you've experienced how the body reacts in those types of situations. I think you said to see if the person at least has something, right? Using that reasoning it shouldn't matter if his hand ends up being empty because there's no difference between a cellphone and an empty hand in terms of danger.
I get it, people keep getting hung up on him being "unarmed". Wrong. If he's going to act like he's armed, he's going to be treated like he's armed. I don't understand how that is unreasonable?
If someone kicks in your door in the middle of the night, are you going to wait to see if they have a gun or other weapon before you take steps to protect your family? I mean, by breaking your door they've only committed a property crime. Certainly doesn't rate a death sentence right? Are you going to wait to see if they just want your TV instead of attacking your wife? No. They broke in to YOUR house in the middle of the night and based upon theiractions you are going to react accordingly.
Like I said, there's only one reason people reach behind their back when confronted by cops. And they will be treated accordingly.
BTW, I do agree that it should never be as simple as "I thought he had a gun". But unfortunately due to the quality of journalism in this country, rarely do you ever get all the factors that led up to that moment.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things." -Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
Completely different situations, which is why I still don't agree.
You're trying to compare close combat is within a home in the middle of the night, to broad ass daylight with a guy who clearly has some distance between him and the cop involved?
I'm not buying it.
In terms of danger, yes, an empty hand is way different than even a cell phone. As I said, SOMETHING in his hand. Anything bro. I don't care if it was a rolled up picture of his ex girlfriend, or a sex toy.
SOMETHING, that way in the heat of the moment, your ass is covered.
I can't man. This was completely senseless death. Whoop his ass, break his arm or something. How many officers were on the scene?
It's getting real old seeing multiple cops on scene, yet somehow they still feel the need to fire their weapon at someone who isn't armed.
If 2-4 cops can't take down one person, they need to find a new line of work. I'm tired of punk ass softies hiding behind their weapon to make them feel powerful.
That goes for cops and cilivians.
Last edited by Swish; 06/29/1609:42 AM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Completely different situations, which is why I still don't agree.
You're trying to compare close combat is within a home in the middle of the night, to broad ass daylight with a guy who clearly has some distance between him and the cop involved?
I'm not buying it.
In terms of danger, yes, an empty hand is way different than even a cell phone. As I said, SOMETHING in his hand. Anything bro. I don't care if it was a rolled up picture of his ex girlfriend, or a sex toy.
SOMETHING, that way in the heat of the moment, your ass is covered.
I can't man. This was completely senseless death. Whoop his ass, break his arm or something. How many officers were on the scene?
It's getting real old seeing multiple cops on scene, yet somehow they still feel the need to fire their weapon at someone who isn't armed.
If 2-4 cops can't take down one person, they need to find a new line of work. I'm tired of punk ass softies hiding behind their weapon to make them feel powerful.
That goes for cops and cilivians.
I totally get your perspective man, I really do. But you have to realize that what you are talking about is all based on hindsight. And currently thanks to Graham vs. Connor these incidents are not judged using hindsight. Here's just a snippet of the ruling:
“The test for reasonableness under the Fourth Amendment is not capable of precise definition or mechanical application. ”Allowance must be made for the fact that “...police officers are often forced to make split second judgments in circumstances that are tense, uncertain and rapidly evolving about the amount of force that is necessary in a particular situation."
We've gone round and round enough that I know I'm not going to get you to agree with me on this, and that's cool. That's not my aim. Just trying to educate as to how these things are legally viewed as.
And as always, we're always hiring! Anyone who wants t show me how I can do my job better if not perfect, I'm all about it. It can only make me a better cop.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things." -Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
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