DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Obscure Major League Baseball Rules

Ahh hell .. This one sounds like it could be fun also .. Never done this before so if there's are duds .. Let me know ..

I know in person these would be fun to discuss cause we could have a discussion before folks go the rule book .. *L* ....

R2 ... 1 out

Ground ball SS .... R2 is forced to hold ... SS sails the throw into the stands ...

Where does the BR (Batter/Runner) end up? Where does R-2 end up?

And once again .. Why do they end up where they end up ...

I would say it's a catch and an out. Just like the transfer rule with infielders, the outfielder secured the ball and it comes loose while trying to transfer it to throw.

Dawgs - went and changed while u were posting this .. What I changed doesn't affect the outcome ..

OMG .. The fact your signature will be reality SCARES the hell out of me .. *L* ..

I read that completely backwards and as "first out" instead of "out at first", I must need some fish oil.

Anyway, the run scores. The third out wasn't a forced out so the runner can score on the last play of the inning.

]Tulsa - I see U realized there was 1 out when the play started ...

If I were scoring this situation runner on 2B would be awarded 3B and B/R goes to 2B as I was taught rule runner get one base from the last legally touched safe base from the point of origin at the start of the play resulting in the ball to go out play and becoming dead. Reasoning R2 was not forced to advance B/R initially start at home plate forced to advance to 1B and safe at first so he is awarded 2B since second not occupied due to R2 moving up.

Passionate - Question ...

R2 ... 1 Out ... Fly Ball RF ... R2 tags ... Throw sails out of play .. At the time the ball goes out of play ... R2 has not reached 3rd yet ...

Does R2 get 3rd and go home and the reasoning behind your decision ..

Yes, runner gets home.

My reasoning: if a batter hits a grounder to 2B and 2B's throw goes over the 1B's head and out of play (even if batter hasn't reached 1B yet) ... batter is awarded 2B

In my ruling R2 is awarded 3B only. At the time pitch initializing play 2B was his last legally touched base position,R2 has not advanced and touched 3B at the time wild throw left OFer hand and then leaves playing field becoming declared dead ball. Also this throw not the first play being made after the pitch and R2 was not forced to advance,he is attempting to advance at his own peril.

more on decision for R2 on to 3B. R2 last legal position was 2B prior to pitch and first play of action was wild throw by INFer was on Bat/Run going to 1B. Also by holding at 2B and not advancing and legally touching 3B when ball left the INfer hand is declared dead he only awarded 3B.

As you say catch and out,ball was secured in glove long enough to be proven a valid catch by the number of steps to fence and from fence prior to ball falling out of glove. Ball is still consider live until it in pitcher's possession on mound.

I'm glad you're enjoying it Rocky. When you said you bought it I thought "man, I hope he doesn't hate it". In the meantime, I finally located my copy, grabbed it a few minutes ago to spend some leisure time and thought I'd check in here first. It was great reading your post "two balls in play", I remembered it right away lol. I think baseball is different in many respects than other sports... usually we find ourselves screaming at a TV because someone blows a call. In baseball, there are so many times when a call requires some pretty deep interpretation of the rule itself.

There have been several “two out innings” in baseball history when a team only got two outs to their full half inning. (not counting game winning runs scored with two outs)

An example of when this has happened is when there was a runner on first with one out. The batter hits a grounder fielded by the second baseman who thinks he steps on second base and throws to first for an inning ending double play.

But the second baseman misses touching second base and the second base umpire calls the runner safe. But neither the runner or anyone else on the batting team sees the second base umpire's call and they take the field.

Umpires can not inform a team they missed a safe call unless they are asked.

Nobody knows how often this has happened because of this (the umpires not saying)

The official scorer counts it as an out once the next half inning starts.

OK this next situation could be made into a Twilight Zone episode.

Normally when a batter gets four balls, they advance to first base. (not in this case)

Normally when a runner is caught stealing, they are thrown out (not in this case).

Normally when a runner is caught stealing for the third out of an inning (other than to end a game) with a batter at the plate, the same batter leads off the team’s next inning at the plate (not in this case)

Put on your thinking cap. This actually makes sense. This has only happened twice in baseball history.

The scenario - runner on third base, first base is open, already two outs in the inning, the batter has three balls.

On the next pitch, the runner attempts to steal home. The pitch is called ball four. The catcher sees the runner, holds the ball and tags the runner.

Runner is out (no throw). End of inning. Batter gets a walk (but doesn’t get first base) and he doesn’t lead-off the next inning.

Note: if the bases are loaded and this happens, everyone is safe. The batter goes to first base, and the run scores, (because the runner on third was forced home by the walk, it’s not a “steal attempt”).

That could also happen if the runner was on second and attempted to steal third and the catcher makes the throw to third and the runner is out. This would be, just as attempting to steal home on a walk, horrible base running. Wonder if that has happened and how many times?

I may need to get this book - sounds very interesting!

Yeah, the book is very interesting. I have it on my nightstand and try to read a page or two every night.

It basically goes through the baseball rules and then strange/bizarre/unusual examples of the rule being applied.

I often have to reread scenarios several times to imagine what exactly happened because the book (and the actual rule book) can use very technical terminology.

For example, here's a quote (from the actual rule book): "BATTER-RUNNER is a term that identifies the offensive player who has just finished his time at bat until he is put out or until the play on which he became a runner ends."

So there's a bunch of ways a batter becomes a batter-runner (e.g. a hit, walk, error, etc...) and there's thousands of things that can happen next (until the play ends or the batter is put out).

The above quote gets complicated when there's two or three other things going on at the same time that may or may not directly involve the "BATTER-RUNNER".

The Quadruple Play

There was one Quadruple Play in the history of MLB.

On opening day 1974, The Pittsburgh Pirates @ St. Louis Cardinals.

In the 10th inning, the Cardinals had the bases loaded. Lou Brock was at the plate and hit a screaming liner to right field.

The right fielder “trapped” the ball (catching it as it hit the ground). The first base umpire signalled “fair ball” (no catch, ball in play).

But the runner on third and the third base coach thought the ball was caught and the runner tagged up.

That was enough time for the rightfielder to fire to the catcher for the force-out at home plate. Then the catcher fired to third base for a force out since the runner on second had held-up.

And likewise, the runner on first base.

Meanwhile, Brock saw that the first base Umpire called no catch and he started tooling around first base and accidentally passed the runner who had been on first. Brock was duly called out.

Count ‘em. Four outs.

That's a strange scenario. I was just surprised the Indians weren't the victims

Another baseball play from the Lore of Baseball.

Orioles at Tigers 1965:

Tie score (3-3), bottom of the ninth, bases loaded, no outs.

Al Kaline hits a rocket grounder to third baseman Brooks Robinson. Robinson steps on third for the force out. Then Robinson fires home to catcher Andy Etchebarren who steps on home plate and fires to first in time to get Kaline.

Game over Orioles lose 4-3.

Once Robinson stepped on third to retire the runner on second headed to third, the force play on the runner headed home was off. He had to be tagged out. Runner scores.

I think Earl Weaver may have politely asked the home plate umpire what just happened.

From the “Rules and Lore of Baseball”

Rusty Staub is the only first baseman ever charged with issuing a walk.

During an Astros @ Dodgers game in 1968, while playing first base in the sixth inning, Staub came over to the mound to give Astro pitcher Larry Dierker a short rest. While there he took the ball and spit on it. Dodger pitcher Bill Singer was at the plate with a 3-1 count. Umpire Shag called ball four and awarded Singer first base.

The penalty for going to your mouth or lips while on the mound with a batter at the plate is a ball.

So I just finished the book “The Rules and Lore of Baseball”.

What a great summer book.

FATE suggested it above (back on June 30th). If you see this, Thanks FATE!

One last bizarre circumstance:

It’s possible for a pitcher to win a game without throwing a pitch. (but it’s not possible to lose a game without throwing a pitch)

It’s happened.

Top of the ninth. Tie ballgame. Two outs. Runner on first.

A new pitcher takes the mound and before his first pitch he balks the runner to second. He’s now the pitcher of record.

Then before throwing a pitch, he picks the runner off second base to end the inning.

His team scores the winning run in the bottom of the ninth. The last pitcher gets the win.