DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Pope says Christians should apologize to gay people

We are all damned to hell from birth. Ever here of Original Sin? Ancestral sin? The sin of disobedience? We are born with it.

Well since I'm not religious, none of that means anything to me.

Anyway, glad the pope respects the LBGT community!! Progress!!!

I agree 110 percent buddy. Hate the sin (which we all are guilty of) but love the sinner

I told you a while ago that God no more created them gay than he created my sons autistic.

Autism, sexual deviance, (I do believe they were born this way also) sickness and disease is a result of the fall of Adam

I also told you that God didn't ask how you were born. He just said, this is how it is.

How can you call yourself a believer in the God of the Bible and disagree with what it says?

I've found plenty in the Bible that my sinful nature didn't agree with and fought against but I asked God for the strength to obey him.

Being a homosexual is not a sin. Homosexual lust is a sin, just like heterosexual lust is. Having homosexual sex is a sin, just like having heterosexual sex outside of marriage is. Jesus plainly identifies what marriage is. People choose to disregard that teaching, though.

Being attracted to a person is not a sin. Being tempted by a person is not a sin. It is the behavior we pursue as a result of the lusts that tempt us that can be sinful. There is a difference between temptation and sin. Even Jesus was tempted. He was perfect, and able to withstand temptation, but the Bible tells us that he faced horrible temptations after 40 days of great physical weakening.

The Bible also teaches that Jesus taught that marriage is one man and one woman, joined together as one flesh, for life. Period. That bond if holy, and should never be broken. That is the only sexual relationship that is acceptable and proper according to the Bible, and the only one that Jesus taught as being acceptable and proper before God.

We confuse temptations, lusts, and behaviors today with "who" a person is. A person is not their temptations, unless they allow themselves to be. They are not their lusts, unless they allow themselves to be. We all have temptations and lusts that pursue us. Satan wants to tempt us with things that appeal to us. He sure can't tempt us with things that don't appeal to us. We all face temptations in the form of things that can attract us, and lead us astray. However, we are not our desires. We are not our lusts.

"Being homosexual" is not a sin. We all have sinful temptations and desires in our lives. They are not all the same from one person to another, but they can be similar. Sexual sin is a sin, no matter if the person sinning has heterosexual, or homosexual sin in their heart. It is all sin before God.

We have, somehow, decided that our feelings, desires, and lusts are who we are. This is not what the Bible says. We are designed to be sons and daughters of God. God loves us as His sons and daughters. However, God is also perfectly just. God has told us what to do in order to be saved from the penalty of His Law. We have 2 options. We can live an absolutely perfect life, never breaking God's law, ever. Only 1 person has ever accomplished that, because Adam and Eve loosed sin on the earth, and we all live under sin as a result. The other option is to put our trust in Christ, and to ask Him to take away our sins, and to help us to live a life pleasing to God. Those are the 2 options we have. I have heard and read people say/write "but that's not fair". It is perfectly fair. It's the law. We have all heard it at one time or another. God leaves it up to us to decide whether or not we want to hear. Either we open our hearts and minds to Christ, or we perish. It saddens me how many choose to perish.

We can have ancestral sin that damns us to hell, but if you mention "slavery" next to a white person they quickly disassociate with their ancestors and tell us they "weren't there" and "shouldn't be punished". Some mental acrobatics for sure.

I've literally seen you call for a nuclear carpet bombing across the middle east on multiple occasions.

There are no 'ancestral sins'. There is a teaching called generational curses, that I'm not going into on my phone other than to say that if you ask for forgiveness through Jesus, that curse is broken.

I was always taught that generational curses were broken with the new covenant and Jesus Christ.

Original Sin...

the tendency to sin innate in all human beings, held to be inherited from Adam in consequence of the Fall. The concept of original sin was developed in the writings of St. Augustine.

So some Christian Religions say we were born with sin and others say not. One of those things we can argue over.

Which Christian religion says that we are born without sin???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Have you been Baptized? Then don't worry about it.

This is why some Christian Religions Baptize soon after birth and others wait till you are old enough to choose for yourself.

Another thing we can argue about.

You know that's still being born with original sin, right?

Why? You wish to argue about it?

You were taught right.

I never even heard of a generational curses until I looked up Original sin.

Hey, you were the one who inserted yourself into a discussion, made an incorrect post, and then when asked to provide details, you fly off the handles and don't say anything meaningful. I'm not trying to argue, I just asked a question. But I see all I'm doing is giving you more opportunities to post your mindless drivel on this forum.

You are arguing. Some Christians believe we are born with Original Sin and some don't. Nothing incorrect about that.

These things are petty and distract folks from the important message.

Back to my original post:




40, there's no argument going on here. I'm asking you a question and you're feeling attacked.

Well accusing someone of mindless drivel and such can be considered an attack but I didn't take it that way, I just took it as you spewing again.

So can we stop arguing now?

Whatever you need to say as long as you don't have to answer a simple question.

Well this got entertaining real quick

You must be high then

You always get me sidetracked with these things.

The Catholics believe this...

God’s first covenant with humanity, through Adam, was broken through the original sin. God has created a new covenant in Jesus Christ, the perfect sacrifice. Jesus has given us a way to enter into this new covenant, through baptism. Baptism removes original sin and any personal sin, and cleanses the soul making it new and fresh. It makes one a new creature in Christ. God invites into this covenant with him freely and it is up to us to choose to enter into it and uphold our end of the bargain.

Can we be done arguing now?

Yeah, but you know you said this



So who are these others?

The uncivilized savages, of course.

Well I guess Ted's religion says we are not.

Can we be done yet?

Oh, just one more little thang from The Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance...

"Original sin" is a belief promoted by many Christian denominations. It is derived primarily from the story of the Garden of Eden in Genesis 3. They interpret this chapter as meaning that when Eve -- and later Adam -- disobeyed God's instruction by eating forbidden fruit, that sin and death entered the world for the first time. Prior to that time, saber toothed tigers, Tyrannosaurus rex dinosaurs and other animals survived by eating only plants, not on other animals.

Exodus 3 describes how God cursed Adam, and Eve for the rest of their lives, and also cursed the land because they disobeyed God's plain instruction to not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The verses near the end of Genesis 3 give no indication that the curse was to extend beyond Adam and Eve to include their descendents. However the curse on the land and on the snake have continued to the present time. Perhaps on that basis, many Christian theologians and faith groups have concluded that the curse on Adam and Eve also extended to include all of their descendents to the present time and beyond.

To those Christians who believe in Original Sin, this became the world's longest running curse. They teach that it has lasted for over six millennia and currently applies to more than 7 billion people. That is, every person currently alive on Earth has been affected by the curse. They believe that babies are born with original sin. When a person dies, their default fate is to be routed to the torture chambers of Hell for eternity, unless they have been saved during their lifetime. Unfortunately, there is extensive disagreement how salvation is attained. Different denominations have very different beliefs on how the curse of original sin can be lifted. No consensus exists:

Some teach that one has to sincerely repent of past sins, and trust Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior in order to be permanently saved.

Others teach a similar belief but do not include repentance because for a person to repent is an action. It is an example of a good work, and they believe that salvation is completely based on faith.

Some believe that once a person is saved, they are always saved and cannot lose that status. Others teach that one can lose salvation. There are biblical passages that support each belief. Some teach that if a person commits a specific unforgivable sin (a.k.a. eternal or unpardonable sin) that one instantly loses their salvation and cannot ever hope to regain it. Unfortunately, it is not clear what this sin is. Various theologians have suggested dozens of different behaviors or thoughts that they believe to be the unpardonable sin. But, again, no consensus exists.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that one is relieved of their original sin and attains Heaven after death through the sacrament of baptism. However, whenever a person who has reached the age of responsibility and subsequently commits a mortal sin, they lose their salvation. Their future after death will be spent in Hell unless they make a valid confession, usually through the Church's Sacrament of Reconciliation (a.k.a. Penance, or Penance and Reconciliation).

Some more liberal/progressive Christian denominations emphasize the "sheep and goats" passage in Matthew 25. In this passage, Jesus is quoted as describing "good works" as the sole criteria by which a person attains Heaven. He also describes bad deeds as the sole criteria for being sent to Hell at the time of the Final Judgment after death. Unfortunately, it is probable that every person on earth has done many good deeds and many bad deeds during their lifetime. Matthew 25 gives no mechanism by which a person can determine from their good and bad deeds whether they have reached a passing grade and will attain Heaven.

Other liberal/progressive Christians teach that all are saved, at least to the extent that the torture chambers of Hell -- if they exist -- have been and will remain empty. They look upon the idea of eternal punishment in Hell as incompatible with a God who teaches the importance of love, redemption, forgiveness and second chances.
In developing their various beliefs about salvation, the approximately 40,000 different Christian faith groups worldwide tend to emphasize certain biblical passages, while ignoring or minimizing others. Denominations end up teaching belief systems that are very different from each other, and which are in major conflict. There is no real way for a person to be certain which faith group is correct. Thus, there does not seem to be any mechanism by which they can determine whether they have been saved. Assessing the will of God through prayer does not seem to work, at least according to a pilot study that we conducted. Most Christians simply accept whatever their denomination teaches as the complete truth, and stick tenaciously to it.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sin_gene1.htm

Thanks for providing an answer to a simple question. It wasn't that hard now was it?

Actually, after all the name calling and accusations it was hard. I really just wanted to tell you to pack sand.

Peace.

You probably should have just answered the question the first time instead of acting like a spoiled child.

See, even after doing all you requested, you are still name calling and continuing to argue.

I warned you the subject is something Christians will argue about and you proved me right on that one too.

You really shouldn't think of yourself that way, you are just a misguided Yout.

Trying to get you to answer a question isn't an argument. You know what an argument is, right? You keep saying that word, but it doesn't mean what you think it means.

I also called you no names. Are you a compulsive liar per chance?

Look, I am done arguing with you now. Good day.

And Ted, you need to pay better attention now, you missed a spot up there on the right!

Its not really a curse. It's more like an extra laod to carry in life. FOr example, If as a child you were raised by a single mother who had to work like crazy to keep you all fed and your father was never around after he ran off with a new woman and started a new life then you will have emotional burdens that weigh you down. You might not learn how to behave properly because no one is there to teach you. Long hours of being left alone with no parent guiding you might lead you to be put in situations that tempt you into bad situations.

Is that a curse or simply the consequences of the sins of your father leaving you to lead a bad lifestyle. Chance are you will mess up due to bad parenting or just a lack of it and your children will also be led astray in life. This is what the Bible is referring to when it says the sins of the father will be passed on to his children's children. It's not God punishing them its just simply the consequences of bad decision making.

Some will overcome it but many won't. The Bible doesn't need to enforce its commandments because the real life consequences of not following them will destroy your life without him ever lifting a finger.

Our society's lost who are so obsessed with the pleasures of the flesh instead of nurturing their souls are passing on that failure more and more to their children and grandchildren. Eventually it will lead to our country's ruin as more disciplined people with more self control will surpass us and stomp down on us. History has proven that over and over again. Despot societies always fall into ruin.

What Jesus did is simply give us a clean slate to start over with. But those burdens don't go away just the damnation for all eternity.

Take things out of context much?

I hate stated that I don't think anything short of that will ever end the inherited, learned, and constantly indoctrinated hatred those in the middle east have for each other. I don't recall saying to actually do so.

I don't think I am wrong either. I don't see any way for those ethnic groups to end their hatred when they are raised on it from birth and the hate goes back thousands of years. I don't think there is a solution to it that will ever come till one side wipes out the other. They don't either which is why they regularly perform ethnic cleansings and genocides.

These are not things I wish to see or that I say should happen. They are things that I see happening. Once Iran finally has enough nukes I am willing to bet they will end up doing that too. I personally would be happy to see them give up their hate for each other and learn to love each other the way Jesus told them to but what I want doesn't matter.

3 Reasons “Love The Sinner, Hate The Sin” Is An Abomination


Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Rarely in history has there been a greater mischaracterization of the heart of Jesus or a more egregious bastardization of the Bible than these six words.

The damage that LTSHTS has done in the lives of billions of people and to the public perception of Christians can never be fully calculated, but one thing is certainly true: it’s an embarrassment and a sin and a total abomination—and here are three reasons why:

1) Jesus never said it.

Lots of Christians would have us believe that Jesus would be totally onboard with LTSHTS, but the simple truth is that he never prescribed anything like it in Scripture. Jesus was crystal clear in his teachings about our calling to love: God, and our neighbor as ourselves, one another as he loved us, our enemies, sacrificially, extravagantly, relentlessly—but never with caveats or qualifications. He never let anything about a person’s life keep them from intimate fellowship with him (and he was the only one qualified to do so).

LTSHTS supporters will ask rhetorically, “Well doesn’t Jesus preach against sin and therefore hates it? Isn’t hating sin just being obedient to him?” Jesus always spoke to people about their own lives; about the sins they were personally called to address in response to him. Whatever repentance Jesus was inviting people to, it was on their behalf, it was never on behalf of anyone else. His words were never given as license to police someone else’s moral condition, but to use a mirror to assess one’s own. Any behavior modification, any inner conviction, any heart change would be between Jesus and those hearing his words. Only he decides the work he does. We don’t get to play middleman between Christ and another human being. We are assigned the tasks of feeding, healing, and caring for those we cross paths with, in his name.

Unfortunately for those so clinging to LTSHTS, Jesus commands us to love people—period.

2) It’s cowardly and morally inconsistent.

Let’s be honest here. Whenever any Christian uses the phrase LTSHTS, it’s never in the context of anything other than gender identity and sexuality, which itself is an indictment of the words themselves. It isn’t as though these faithful folks spend their entire lives dispensing the kind of behavior-based malevolence that LTSHTS always comes packaged with. It’s not as though they continually scour the Scriptures, applying their theological understandings of sin to those in their midst who might lie or steal or commit adultery or love money or drink to excess. If they truly loved those “sinners” and hated those “sins” enough to treat people as horribly as they treat the LGBTIQ community for the sins they charge them with, they’d have nobody left who could ever stand to be in their presence. LTSHTS is simply an exercise in selective, subjective sin-shaming and targeted discrimination disguised as righteousness.

If you’re a Christian and you’re going to choose to be hateful or biased toward people based on their gender identity and sexuality, you may as well just come out and say it. Own your discomfort or displeasure. Hiding behind LTSHTS is just using Jesus as justification for the kind of behavior he would be quite appalled by. It isn’t Christlikeness, it’s cowardice.

3) It’s a relationship-killer.

At the core of LTSHTS is the argument that gender identity and sexual orientation are somehow choices (an idea that runs counter to everyone’s experience of both, of course, but that’s neither here nor there). The speaker of LTSHTS believes that the person in question is making a decision to do something that the speaker believes is inherently sinful, yet (the speaker claims) they are able to somehow separate a sexual act (which they despise), with the person engaging in said act (whom they supposedly love). I’d really like a practical unpacking of how that all works with actual people, but I doubt it will be forthcoming.

Never mind that gender identity and sexual orientation are for all of us, both far greater than simply any physical acts we perform, and therefore to characterize LGBTIQ people as inherently sinful for only those acts themselves, is completely flawed from both a Biblical and common sense perspective.

But someone’s sin isn’t really the issue here and we don’t even have to agree on that. Regardless of our theological perspective, we can’t ignore that at the heart of Jesus’ life and ministry is the way he drew people close to him, listened to them, touched them, broke bread with them, wept with them, and treated them with dignity, as equals.

When a follower of Christ claims that they LTSHTS, they are saying two things loudly and unquestionably to a LGBTIQ person:

One, that he or she knows that person’s body and heart from a distance, better than the person in question knows from the inside.

And two, that what those people are telling them is involuntary about themselves, they are characterizing as despicable. They are declaring them as inherently defective, vile, evil. I’m not sure those who wield LTSHTS so causally have any real idea how damaging and hurtful that is; what it really speaks to the hearer’s heart. If they did, I’m certain they would see the complete absence of Jesus in it.

To say to a LGBTIQ person, “I love you but I hate your sexuality”, is the same as saying to someone, “I love you, but the color of your eyes disgusts me”, or “I love you, but I hate the way you laugh”, or “I love you, but God believes that the freckles on your shoulders and cheeks are an abomination.”

LTSHTS is not (as its practitioners allege) a balanced phrase, but a hateful phrase; one that never makes a relationship between two parties better or closer or richer, it only severs or prevents the very kind of intimate fellowship Jesus forged, even with those he disagreed with. To utter it is to stand in complete opposition to the life he lived and to the ministry he practiced.

Christian, there are many more reasons why “Love The Sinner, Hate The Sin” needs to be killed and buried forever, but those are a great start.

The bottom line, is that it is a phrase that injures, demeans, judges, and ostracizes people who are made in the image of God, and those are things that should never be on the agenda of someone claiming to be following in the footsteps of Jesus.

We’re talking here about important conversations, regarding extremely complex issues, with incredibly diverse human beings. These all deserve much more than a cheap, insulting catch-phrase. They deserve far greater effort than a lazy religious platitude which doesn’t work when fleshed out in real relationships and serves no redemptive purpose.

LTSHTS is about as sinful as we can get, friends.

To never utter that phrase again, may be the very repenting Christians ought to do—but that’s between you and Jesus.

As for me?

I love you, Christian, but I really hate the way you—”love the sinner, hate the sin.”


http://johnpavlovitz.com/2015/08/13/3-reasons-love-the-sinner-hate-the-sin-is-an-abomination/