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A lot of you won't like this article, but I think it is pretty fair and accurate.

Quote:
2016 NFL Preview: This is what 'Year Zero' looks like for Browns and Hue Jackson
Frank Schwab,Shutdown Corner 5 hours ago Comments Sign in to like Reblog on Tumblr Share Tweet Email

Shutdown Corner is previewing all 32 teams as we get ready for the NFL season, counting down the teams one per day in reverse order of our initial 2016 power rankings. No. 1 will be revealed on Aug. 6, the day before the Hall of Fame Game kicks off the preseason.



The Cleveland Browns’ roster looks like an expansion team. It’s not that much different than the roster in 1999, when the Browns actually were an expansion team.

The quarterback spots are filled by a veteran desperate for a second chance to start, an older veteran backup and a developmental rookie. The best skill-position player is a tight end who had a breakout nobody saw coming at age 30. There are 14 drafted rookies. The only clues this isn’t an expansion team is the future Hall of Famer at left tackle (Joe Thomas) and an elite corner (Joe Haden), but even Haden is coming off a down season.

“Year Zero” is a term perhaps invented by former University of Tennessee coach Derek Dooley (and used often by SB Nation’s Bill Connelly) to describe a college coach’s first season, when the coach guts the roster and bottoms out as he finds players who fit his program. Then he starts to really build in his second season on the job. A “Year Zero” season shouldn’t happen in the NFL. This isn’t the Mid-American Conference; even the worst NFL team isn’t that bad.

But that’s exactly what 2016 is in Cleveland. This is “Year Zero” for new coach Hue Jackson.



The latest Browns rebuild has to be a long-term project. The last coach to survive more than two seasons in Cleveland was Romeo Crennel, and his run ended in 2008. Three coaches since then have been given just two years, and Rob Chudzinski was given just one. You can’t build anything that way. You have to trust a hire and let it play out.

The Browns were fortunate to get Jackson, a hot name after doing a great job as the Cincinnati Bengals’ offensive coordinator. Who knows why he’d want to go to this Browns franchise, which has been remarkably dysfunctional over the past few years. But he’s here, and the Browns have to give him a long time to turn this around. They have to trust their process for once and allow Jackson to build slowly, and maybe see positive results in four or five seasons. Another quick change after a couple losing seasons (and there will be losses in Jackson’s first couple years) would leave the Browns the same hapless mess they are today, just two years further down the road.

Consider this a fresh start. Year Zero. Expansion, The Sequel. Whatever you want to call it, it’s a total rebuild. This season will probably be ugly, but Jackson will figure out which of these rookies and younger players fit, then will presumably have a nice pick next year. If a terrible season results in Clemson quarterback Deshaun Watson in 2017, that’s great.

You can understand why Browns fans (and ownership) want some immediate success. Their team is 0-1 in the playoffs since re-entering the NFL in 1999, which is staggering. The league is set up so every team can turn it around quickly, and the Browns have yet to win a playoff game in their existence. They’ve shuffled through coaches and front offices at a breakneck pace, upset when wins haven’t come immediately. That approach is not working.

The vision should be for what the Browns could be in 2019 or 2020, not the win-loss record of this season or next. We’ll see if Jackson is given the time to pull that off.




Outside of Robert Griffin III, a reclamation project at this point, the Browns didn’t make any big signings. The new analytically-inclined front office showed it knows the value in trading down in the draft, adding a ton of picks by repeatedly moving down. I don’t love their draft class, but when you pick 14 players, some have to stick. They should have re-signed free-agent safety Tashaun Gipson, the kind of young talent the Browns could use as a building block. The same goes for right tackle Mitchell Schwartz, who is just 27. Gipson went to Jacksonville and Schwartz signed in Kansas City. Losing 30-year-old center Alex Mack was inevitable. It wasn’t a good offseason for immediate impact but what matters most is if the draft class is a keeper. Grade: D+



Few are expecting a lot of wins, but they could be more competitive than last year. Jackson did a great job in Cincinnati with Andy Dalton, and maybe he can turn Griffin around. If tight end Gary Barnidge repeats his amazing 2015, Josh Gordon comes back from suspension and plays like a star again, and first-round pick Corey Coleman has an instant impact, the passing game could be OK. And the season shouldn’t be judged in wins and losses but by how the players pick up Jackson’s offense and if some of the young talent develops.



What’s not a potential problem? The defense doesn’t have a great pass rush or a strong secondary. The offensive line is rebuilding. The quarterbacks aren’t great and the skill-position players are among the worst in the NFL. Again: This is a long-term rebuild for the Browns. There’s a long, long way to go.



Is Josh McCown the Browns’ best quarterback? Maybe. He had a respectable 93.3 rating on a terrible team last year. It still makes no sense to play him over Griffin. McCown is 37 and Griffin still has the pedigree of a former offensive rookie of the year and he’s just 26. Cody Kessler, a late third-round pick who was panned by almost everyone outside of Cleveland, may be an option late in the season if all else fails. If Griffin somehow looks like a franchise quarterback by the end of this season, it would be a surprise and a fantastic development for the Browns. But the Browns’ quarterback of the future is probably getting ready for the NCAA season right now.



Gordon, who surprisingly is still just 25 years old, could be a building block. Here’s how many current NFL receivers have led the league in receiving and are younger than Gordon: Zero. Of course, we also know Gordon has been wholly unreliable and it’s unclear if he’ll be reinstated from his suspension in August. We also don’t know if playing just five games over two years has eroded his skills. How nice would it be for the Browns if Gordon stayed out of trouble and became a star for them again? Cleveland could use a break like that.



Cosell: “At quarterback, I wouldn’t be surprised if Josh McCown is the Week 1 starter. I think RG3 has a long way to go to really learn how to play NFL quarterback. I think Josh McCown, when all is said and done, will give them their best chance to compete.”





From Yahoo’s Liz Loza: “Instability under center, a cadre of rookie receivers, and yet another regime change … the Browns are hardly a buffet of fake football treats. With Hue Jackson trekking north across the state, however, Cleveland’s running game offers intriguing worth. Duke Johnson and Isaiah Crowell are expected to open the season as the ground game’s primary components. While their current ADPs are solid values, I think the most intriguing – and certainly cheapest – option is still flying under the fantasy radar.

“I present to you … Terrell Watson. At 6-foot-1 and 242 pounds, he’s a big-bodied bruiser who comps similarly to the Bengals’ Jeremy Hill. Incredibly productive in college, Watson’s name is scribbled all over Azusa Pacific’s record book. The 22-year-old racked up 79 scores and rushed for almost 6,000 yards.

“He was also the first free agent signed by the Browns after Jackson was named the team’s head coach. A member of the Bengals’ practice squad in 2015, Jackson has obvious familiarity with the small-school stud. If Crowell were to struggle or go down with an injury, Watson would likely be his replacement, receiving work on early downs and at the goal line. Given Crowell’s trials both on and off the field, Watson has a real shot of making an impact by midseason, if not before.”





Starting in 2003, the Browns have finished in last place of the AFC North 11 times in 13 seasons. They’ve finished third once and second once since 2003, and have finished last each of the previous five seasons. They also had two last-place finishes in their first two seasons, before realignment. So overall it’s 13 last-place finishes in 17 seasons for the new Browns. That’s unbelievable.



CAN ROBERT GRIFFIN III TURN HIS CAREER AROUND?

Griffin’s top priority in free agency seemed to be landing with a team for which he could start. He dodged a bullet when the Browns decided the trade haul from Philadelphia was a better option than drafting Carson Wentz. So Griffin now has a prime opportunity to prove he can stick, on a team that should have no problem letting him play through mistakes. It’s hard to tell what kind of player Griffin is anymore. It has been a long time since he played (he didn’t appear in a game last season), and it has been many years since he looked like a top quarterback. Since Griffin’s great 2012 season, he has had one game in which he threw for multiple touchdowns in a win, and that was Oct. 20, 2013. He hasn’t thrown for multiple touchdowns in any game since Nov. 17, 2013. Touchdown passes aren’t a be-all, end-all stat, but it shows that it has been a really long time since we’ve seen Griffin play well.

There are questions about Griffin’s ability to stay healthy and play from the pocket. Jackson should help with the latter. Griffin’s immense talent was clear in 2012, when he was the No. 2 pick and NFL offensive rookie of the year. He and Washington coach Jay Gruden didn’t work out, for whatever reason. Jackson could be great for Griffin — Jackson turned Dalton into an MVP candidate last year, after all — but if Griffin struggles and shows again that he doesn’t have great vision from the pocket, it’s hard to imagine he’d get another chance as a starter in 2017 for any team.



In the most sunny scenario, Griffin plays like it’s 2012 again under Jackson’s tutelage and RG3 becomes the Browns’ franchise quarterback for the next decade. More realistically, this season is all about Jackson establishing what he wants to do and finding the players who want to buy in and be a part of the Browns’ rebuild. If the team plays hard and a good percentage of the younger players impress, that’s a great “Year Zero” for Jackson.



Because ownership has been so destructive in Cleveland, nothing can be ruled out. If there are signs that owner Jimmy Haslam doesn’t grasp the concept that Jackson needs time to build through some losing seasons, then there should be little hope going forward. Starting over every two years is a good way to ensure that nothing will ever change. It would also be bad if all these draft picks look like … well, like most of the recent Browns draft picks.



The Browns should be a little feistier than expected. They were 7-9 in 2014, and 2-4 with three losses by seven points or less before it all fell apart in late October. But it’s clear where this season is headed. And if you told Cleveland fans the Browns will be incredibly bad this season but they’ll get the first pick and presumably select Clemson QB Deshaun Watson, every one of them would happily sign up for that scenario. Besides, they have the Cavaliers’ title to soften the blow.

– – – – – – –

Frank Schwab is the editor of Shutdown Corner on Yahoo Sports.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/2016-n...-131321880.html


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That's an article.

I don't know that there's anything there that a reader of this site doesn't know but for the readers of Yahoo I'm sure it's informative.

The only debate it would seem is how quickly we think success, or failure should be determined and more importantly how quickly Haslam thinks it shoudl be determined.


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While it brings up some valid points, I think the slant is a bit much.

Get rid of all the year zero junk and it's pretty accurate.

McCown is arguably the best QB we've had since the return. He completed ~63% of his passes and had a 3:1 TD to INT ratio. RG3 has only faded since his rookie season, but he's still an upgrade over most of the guys we've trotted out there. If we were projecting Connor Shaw/Thaddeus Lewis to start then maybe I could see a little bit of "year zero".

He talks about the skill position players being the worst in the NFL when most of the WRs haven't played a down of even pre-season football yet. What about last year? Getting rid of Bowe was addition by subtraction. At least we actually addressed the position this season. We got our choice of all the receivers in the draft in Coleman. We still have Hawkins. Between the other receivers we drafted and Pryor I think we can find a respectable 3rd receiver.

We've got 2 pro bowl caliber OL in Joe and Bitonio. Greco is solid. Erving is a former first rounder who knows how the NFL works now and has a single position. Between Bailey, Pasztor, and the rookies I think we can get better than O'Neill Cousins level play at RT. Cousins would be "year zero."

Barnidge had a nice season last year, and DeValve has pretty crazy Ht/Wt/Spd. I think we're above year zero at TE.

As far as RB, while we don't have a surefire bell cow, Duke looks dangerous as a pass catching weapon out of the backfield. Crow has his moments, and Watson has sleeper potential.

In summary, on offense, "Year Zero" looks like pandering to the Browns bashing masses.

I won't get into as much detail on the defense. While we don't have a bunch of superstars, we do have pretty good depth just about everywhere. Safety is a big question mark, but most teams have at least one hole. I wouldn't say we're expansion team level.

We could be in for a rough year with some growing pains. However, there is some potential in the playmaker department which we have lacked. It's "Year One" for Hue Jackson and the Browns. There is no need to paint things worse than they actually are.


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I'm sorry and I hate to be a Negative Nancy, but I stopped reading after the "Josh Gordon come back and plays like a star again" comment. It just deflated all credibility of the author and therefore the remainder of the article, IMO.

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NFL coach power rankings

Elliot Harrison NFL Media analyst

25) Hue Jackson, Cleveland Browns

Jackson tabbed to turn around the Browns = best coaching hire in the NFL this offseason. Too bad Jackson doesn't possess half the artillery in Cleveland that he owned in Cincinnati. What he does have -- in spades -- is enthusiasm. Reports from OTAs have detailed the different vibe circling the Browns these days. Jackson comes with more than energy. His offensive know-how helped the Bengals finish seventh in scoring last year. The Raiders finished sixth in said category during his lone season as offensive coordinator in Oakland. Promoted to head coach the next year, Jackson led the Raiders to an 8-8 finish -- which is like winning the Super Bowl there.

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If Josh McCown is your best QB on the roster then your organization then your present situation at QB isn't bright
He's a career losing QB.
Dwayne Bowe played less than a 100 snaps in 2015.he was never a factor to begin with unless you include the homers
Who thought Bowe was gonna be so good last year
Bitonio regressed so much last yr. He lost his aggression and wore a skirt most of the year.
Pro bowl. Really. He's not even the 3rd best OG in North.
The Browns have the worst offense in AFC.
Barnidge is the only viable threat to score.
The WRS are too young to make a impact collectively

The Browns has zero playmakers. No threats off the edge.
No defender that has a seek and destroy attitude.
The secondary will give up passing yards early and often.

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Pretty balanced article.. I found it very truthful without being bashing .

Not winning a Playoff game since the return...Ouch !!

Josh McCown being the best QB... even Cleveland reporters have mentioned that...Hurts

Sometimes the truth hurts... I hope this team can prove doubters wrong.

Trying to think positive... be supportive is what most of do as a fan of this team.

Reality is the hardest part.. I read both sides of the story hoping Cinderella shows up in a hurry.

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Originally Posted By: Iluvmyxstripper

Dwayne Bowe played less than a 100 snaps in 2015.


Was Bowe one of the worst FA signings in franchise history? It's quite telling that I ALREADY basically forgot he existed. He straight up stole money and never even attempted to contribute.

Pet's weekly "Dwayne's going to be a major part of this thing when he gets healthy" became comical.


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
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The Cleveland Browns’ roster looks like an expansion team. It’s not that much different than the roster in 1999

That's actually comical... rolleyes

Not remotely close to expansion level. Our OL was a sieve...yeah think this one will be?
We had no RBs, We had no TE to speak of. Yes we had a rookie WR in KJ...Coleman is heads on better. Heck Hawkins is better than KJ and I liked KJ a lot.

We have an excellent DL...so not even close to expansion level for the LOS. We have a cover Corner and depth at CB. Safety is a ??? cause of a lack of experience.

I stopped reading there.



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Slanted a bit too much to the negative but still, until they prove otherwise, this is as good as any other analysis out there.

In all honesty, we have no idea, no real idea what we have and we won't until we start to see them play.

I hope we can look back at this article and laugh.


Last edited by Damanshot; 07/07/16 10:19 AM.

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The article says that this time they have to give the plan time to succeed. But what if the coach comes out and doesn't play for the touchdown, down by 4 late in the game, or what if the average score is a 30 point loss, going again and again, 10 straight.

The point is, they could have stuck with the previous plan, as much as they could stick with the current plan.

I don't know much, but I'm confident in this, the Browns aren't going to be any good this year. I think they could lose all 16.

I say that because they don't have any nucleous of a team, it's all new faces from top to bottom

I know from history that everyone that trys to team together, it's better if they've had more time together.
I know the NFL and it' collective bargaining allowed less time for new faces to practice together circa 2014, and that gives teams that keep their team together (even more) of an advantage. And they already had a million advantage.
Yet the Browns don't keep their team together.


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Just clicking

How quickly fortunes/perceptions change:

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2015/6/10/8763801/pff-ranks-the-browns-roster-14th-in-the-nfl

2015 PFF rated the roster as 14th best, a year later (after a good draft btw) the general media perception seems to be no better then an expansion team.

Last edited by edromeo; 07/07/16 11:24 AM.
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The Browns roster as posted September 2 2014, less than 24 months ago.

( I was only expecting to find 7-10, maybe 11, 12 returning, but surprisingly 19 (oops 21,) players I found correspond to the roster as posted today.

Sept 2 2014, *note, I believe this was the 53 man cutdown day to start the season and a couple of changes occurred during that week to shuffle by opening day.

The Sept 2, 2014 Browns roster.
Ray Agnew, Fb,
Miles Austin Wr,
Johnson Bademosi, Db. (ok I felt he had been hanging around too long at that point but they got some use out of him in 2015. He Gone)
# Gary Barnidge, TE, # still on the roster 1
Travis Benjamin, wr. (no doubt a contributer on the offense the 3 years. He Gone)
Aaron Berry Db
Joel Bitonio, ( I didn't notice he was on both lists, # still on the roster #20
Armonty Bryant # still on the roster 2
Desmond Bryant # still on the roster 3
LaRon Byrd wr
Jordan Cameron Te, ( had at least one promising year, He Gone)
Tank Carder, Lb (another I didn't notice was still on the team #21
Isaiah Crowell, (feed the Crow) still on the roster 4
Billy Cundiff , K
Karlos Dansby Lb, He gone
Peirre Desir, Db, (not the presumed starter in 2014, is still on the team, still on the roster 5
Jim Dray TE , Gone
Taylor Gabriel wr, still on the roster #6
Justin Gilbert db, (the mighty db,) #still on the roster #7
Tashaun Gipson db, (contributor) He Gone
John Greco Ol, # still on the roster 8
Joe Haden, Db, ( star) still on the roster #9
(caylin Hauptmann) failed physical, (sept 2, 2014)
Andrew Hawkins, wr, .. contributor on offense.. still on the roster #10
Brian Hoyer Qb, (insert opinion) He Gone
John Hughes, Dl, # still on the roster # 11
Christian Kirksey Lb, (sometimes contributor on D) Still on the roster #12
Ishmaa'ily Kitchen Dl, had been with the team for a while by 2014, He Gone
Paul Krueger Lb, leader on D, recent to the roster in '14, Still on the roster # 13
Spencer Lanning P Gone
Jim Leonhard db, 31, 10 yrs in 2014, Gone
Alex Mack, Ol, (The Alex Mack) He Gone
Johnny Manziel Qb, ( I think a rookie in 14) He Gone
Eric Martin Lb,
Paul McQuistan Ol
Barkevious Mingo Lb, (The Barkevious Mingo), #still on the roster #14
Robert Nelson db
Jordon Poyer db, # Still on the roster #15,
Craig Robertson lb, not on the current roster
Ahtyba Rubin Dl, (contributor) He Gone
Mitchell Schwartz, Ol, (contributor) He Gone
Ryan Seymour OL,
Jabaal Sheard, (contributor in the past), He Gone
Buster Skrine, (conttibutor) He Gone
Ben Tate Rb, (the projected #1 Rb at the start of 2014) He Gone
Phil Taylor Dl, (former #1, the stud NT,) He Gone
Joe Thomas Ol, (star) # still on the roster #16
Terrance West, rb, ( co starter with Crowell for much of 2014) He Gone
Donte Whitner Db, (played little, then played more, ) He Gone
K'Waun Williams db, still on the roster #17
Billy Winn Dl, (the outside d-lineman, )
Glenn Winston, Rb, ( On todays roster, though spent a lot of time off of it.) Still on the roster #18
Christian Yount, Ls,
Vinston Painter Ol, was added,

Josh Gordon. Wr, suspended, #still on the roster #19

There you have it 21 players still on the roster from Sept 2, 2014
39% of 53,

A little bit of a nucleus to build around, but still it's 24 months, less than that even, I just hope going forward we can see some foundation stick around 5 or 6 years, (or even 4 years) that can develop into winners, because

I'm sure other teams don't mind beating the Browns if the Browns are going to continue to have such a high level of turnover that the players don't know how to play together, knowing what each other is going to do.

Which I know is going to happen if they have to replace almost everybody, almost every year.

Bottom Line, a LARGE AMOUNT of the Browns players haven't been on the Browns for a lot of years.


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Nice info THROW ... neat to see who's left. I anticipate that number to dwindle significantly by next year at this time ... especially if we're so active in pursuing draft picks


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
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I'd love to see this same information on a team like Seattle or New England or Pittsburgh or Denver.

Just to compare the percentages of teams known to be pretty darn good and us.

That may either tell us that turnover is not a big deal or that it is a big deal.


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I still make hand written copies, I don't have any from Seattle, or New England, I'd like to see that too.

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Surprised many of you guys could read it for so long. Stopped after reading
Quote:
You can understand why Browns fans (and ownership) want some immediate success. Their team is 0-1 in the playoffs since re-entering the NFL in 1999, which is staggering. The league is set up so every team can turn it around quickly, and the Browns have yet to win a playoff game in their existence. They’ve shuffled through coaches and front offices at a breakneck pace, upset when wins haven’t come immediately. That approach is not working.


The first dig was annoying, but this was over the top. The NFL is not set up for parity, it's never been set up for parity, and it's not that even. Also, for Christ's sake, we're also the last team in Ohio to win a playoff game.

As GM said, I wish we had real sports journalists. Not some fat head who thinks he's smart. There's a reason why Yahoo gives him the column that deals with Russell Wilson's off field life, and team breakdowns of teams that played 5 years ago like he did with The Eagle's/Vince Young's "Dream Team".

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Let's look at the Steelers, I'm skipping players who's experience level is listed as 2 years, 1, or Rookie.

LeVeon Bell, Rb, 4, 2012-2015 with Pitt
Antonio Brown Wr, 7 2010-15, 6 yrs with Pitt
Ross Cockrell Cb, 3, NO! spent 2014 in Buffalo
David DeCastro, Ol, 5, 2012-15 with Pitt
Ramon Foster, Ol, 8 , since 2009 with Pitt
William Gay, Cb 10, 2007-2015, with Pitt, spent 2012 in Arizona.
Marcus Gilbert, Ot, 6, 2011-15 with Pitt
Roberth Golden, S, 5, 2012-15 with Pitt
Bruce Gradkowski Qb, 11, No! 5 teams only 2 yrs with pitt.
Ladarius Green, TE 5, NO! 4yrs all in San diego.


James Harrison, lb 14, 2002-2015 with pitt, spent 2013 in Cincinnati
Ryan Harris, Ot, NO! 5yrs with Denver, 2 with Houston, 1 in Kc
Darius Heyward Bey, Yes, 09-12 in Oakland, 2012 in Indy, From April 2 2014 in Pitt.
Cameron Heyward, De, 6, 2011-present, with Pitt
David Johnson, TE, 8, (iffy) Yes, Spent 2009-2011 +2013 with pitt, spent 14 and 15 in San Diego.
Steven Johnson lb 5, NO! 2012-14 in Denver, 2015 tenn.
Jarvis Jones Lb 4, 2013-pres. with Pitt
Landry Jones, Qb, 2013- now with Pitt
Ricardo Mathews DE, 7, NO! 10-13 Indy, 14-15 San Diego.
Daniel McCullers, Dt 3, 2014- with Pitt, 6th rd pick.
Mike Mitchell S. 8, 09-12 in Oak, 2013 Carolina, since March 12 2014 with Pitt.
Arthur Moats, Lb 7, 2010-13 in Buffalo, since March 24, 2014 in Pitt.
Maurkice Pouncy Ol, 7 2010-2014 with Pitt.
Daryl Richardson Rb 3, NO! 12-13 in St Louis, 2015 in Cleveland
Ben Roethlisburger, Qb 13,


Ryan Shazier Lb 3, 2014 firt rd pick
Matt Spaeth TE 10, 2007-2010 with pitt, 11 and 12 in Chicago, 2013-2015 with Pitt
Shamarko Thomas, S, 2013-15 with pitt.
Lawrence Timmons Lb, 10, 2007-15 with Pitt, 9 yrs
Fitzgerald Toussaint Rb 3, NO! 2014 in Baltimore,
Stephon Tuitt DE, 3, 2014 2nd rd pick
Ross Ventrone, S, 4, NO! New England 2011, joined Pitt on October 11th 2014
Cody Wallace OL 7, San Francisco, Detroit, Tampa Bay, since 2013-15 with Pitt.
Greg Warren (long snapper), 12, with pitt
Donald Washington Cb, 4, NO! 2009, 2010-11 with Kc
Markus Wheaton, Wr 4, 2013-15 with pitt, 13 3rd rd pick
DeAngelo Williams, Rb 11, NO! 2006-14 with Carolina 9yrs, 2015 in Pitt
Vince Williams, lb 4, 2013-15 with Pitt.
Jordan Zumwalt,Lb 3, (iffy) No) 6th rd pick in 14, on injured reserve since 14?

Reserve Suspended by commissioner
Martavis Bryant, Wr. 3, 2014-present with Pitt.


So I count 27 steelers on their team from before Sept 2 2014,
12 who were not with them, 1 iffy, and the rest with 2 years or less experience.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Originally Posted By: eotab
The Cleveland Browns’ roster looks like an expansion team. It’s not that much different than the roster in 1999

That's actually comical... rolleyes

Not remotely close to expansion level. Our OL was a sieve...yeah think this one will be?
We had no RBs, We had no TE to speak of. Yes we had a rookie WR in KJ...Coleman is heads on better. Heck Hawkins is better than KJ and I liked KJ a lot.

We have an excellent DL...so not even close to expansion level for the LOS. We have a cover Corner and depth at CB. Safety is a ??? cause of a lack of experience.

I stopped reading there.




I agree. Anybody who actually goes and compares rosters can figure it out pretty quickly. Well, anybody who knows anything about football or on some drive agenda......shoot Terry Kirby was our stud back in 99....he isn't even close to what we have today.


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Quote:
Anybody who actually goes and compares rosters can figure it out pretty quickly. Well, anybody who knows anything about football or on some drive agenda.....


Our roster sucks. The team won 3 games last year and the roster got worse. The Browns suck. Anyone who knows football or doesn't have an agenda can see that.

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Originally Posted By: THROW LONG
Let's look at the Steelers, I'm skipping players who's experience level is listed as 2 years, 1, or Rookie.

LeVeon Bell, Rb, 4, 2012-2015 with Pitt
Antonio Brown Wr, 7 2010-15, 6 yrs with Pitt
Ross Cockrell Cb, 3, NO! spent 2014 in Buffalo
David DeCastro, Ol, 5, 2012-15 with Pitt
Ramon Foster, Ol, 8 , since 2009 with Pitt
William Gay, Cb 10, 2007-2015, with Pitt, spent 2012 in Arizona.
Marcus Gilbert, Ot, 6, 2011-15 with Pitt
Roberth Golden, S, 5, 2012-15 with Pitt
Bruce Gradkowski Qb, 11, No! 5 teams only 2 yrs with pitt.
Ladarius Green, TE 5, NO! 4yrs all in San diego.


James Harrison, lb 14, 2002-2015 with pitt, spent 2013 in Cincinnati
Ryan Harris, Ot, NO! 5yrs with Denver, 2 with Houston, 1 in Kc
Darius Heyward Bey, Yes, 09-12 in Oakland, 2012 in Indy, From April 2 2014 in Pitt.
Cameron Heyward, De, 6, 2011-present, with Pitt
David Johnson, TE, 8, (iffy) Yes, Spent 2009-2011 +2013 with pitt, spent 14 and 15 in San Diego.
Steven Johnson lb 5, NO! 2012-14 in Denver, 2015 tenn.
Jarvis Jones Lb 4, 2013-pres. with Pitt
Landry Jones, Qb, 2013- now with Pitt
Ricardo Mathews DE, 7, NO! 10-13 Indy, 14-15 San Diego.
Daniel McCullers, Dt 3, 2014- with Pitt, 6th rd pick.
Mike Mitchell S. 8, 09-12 in Oak, 2013 Carolina, since March 12 2014 with Pitt.
Arthur Moats, Lb 7, 2010-13 in Buffalo, since March 24, 2014 in Pitt.
Maurkice Pouncy Ol, 7 2010-2014 with Pitt.
Daryl Richardson Rb 3, NO! 12-13 in St Louis, 2015 in Cleveland
Ben Roethlisburger, Qb 13,


Ryan Shazier Lb 3, 2014 firt rd pick
Matt Spaeth TE 10, 2007-2010 with pitt, 11 and 12 in Chicago, 2013-2015 with Pitt
Shamarko Thomas, S, 2013-15 with pitt.
Lawrence Timmons Lb, 10, 2007-15 with Pitt, 9 yrs
Fitzgerald Toussaint Rb 3, NO! 2014 in Baltimore,
Stephon Tuitt DE, 3, 2014 2nd rd pick
Ross Ventrone, S, 4, NO! New England 2011, joined Pitt on October 11th 2014
Cody Wallace OL 7, San Francisco, Detroit, Tampa Bay, since 2013-15 with Pitt.
Greg Warren (long snapper), 12, with pitt
Donald Washington Cb, 4, NO! 2009, 2010-11 with Kc
Markus Wheaton, Wr 4, 2013-15 with pitt, 13 3rd rd pick
DeAngelo Williams, Rb 11, NO! 2006-14 with Carolina 9yrs, 2015 in Pitt
Vince Williams, lb 4, 2013-15 with Pitt.
Jordan Zumwalt,Lb 3, (iffy) No) 6th rd pick in 14, on injured reserve since 14?

Reserve Suspended by commissioner
Martavis Bryant, Wr. 3, 2014-present with Pitt.


So I count 27 steelers on their team from before Sept 2 2014,
12 who were not with them, 1 iffy, and the rest with 2 years or less experience.


Looks like 51% (50.9)retained since 2014. We were at 39% so yeah, that's what I expected...

We need to pick better.., simple as that. Oh yeah, and once we get good guys, we need to retain them.




Last edited by Damanshot; 07/08/16 06:32 AM.

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I'm not going claim they suck until they show me on the football field, that they suck.

Hue Jackson and his coaching staff will be the most experienced new coaching staff the Browns have had since returning in 99. I believe their ability to teach the game could be a difference maker.

Depending on how quickly these young guys learn from the new coaching staff... they might surprise us. I will try to hold judgement until I see the performance on the field.


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I can agree with that. This is the story they want to write and showcase the bias based on weak past performance. Maybe it is spot on; I feel it is too harsh. Easier to engineer the story or write from your own opinion. Negative sells. We are not the only ones with issues that get this treatment, some of which wee have brought on ourselves admittedly by past mistakes in drafts, etc. But we get hounded for the past. Turning the corner has real potential stories and, well, news. Piling on doesn't take too much talent. Up to our chests in self-proclaimed experts.

lame kind of journalism when mere editorials are passed off as news IMO.


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I think you didn't read closely enough. They are evaluating all 32 teams. It was not a local article. It has nothing to do w/using negativity to sell.

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Maybe not negativity, but there was at least some sensationalizing. "Year Zero" while probably less accurate than still "rebuilding" will draw more page clicks.

Dooley came up with the "Year Zero" concept to describe the college game. I don't think applying it to the NFL works as well. The college game is much more system driven while the NFL appears to be more player/talent driven. Obviously, there is some overlap.

In college, no one is there generally for more than 5 years, so there is always complete turnover over that ~5 year period. A new coach in college often accelerates that process.

In most cases in the NFL, the best players get locked up on long term deals by their teams. There is roster turnover with coaching changes, but there are still some savvy veterans that stick around.


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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Quote:
Anybody who actually goes and compares rosters can figure it out pretty quickly. Well, anybody who knows anything about football or on some drive agenda.....


Our roster sucks. The team won 3 games last year and the roster got worse. The Browns suck. Anyone who knows football or doesn't have an agenda can see that.


This is how I see it:

Even if we drafted really well, last year and this year, it is going to take time for players to develop and mature .... and for them to learn to play together. I see little chance that these players somehow come into the NFL, and start playing at a collectively average to above average level right away. This is going to take time. The Cowboys drafted probably as well as a team could draft back in the Jimmy Johnson days ...... and it still took them 4 years to put it all together.

Many of the players we drafted will wind up being back-ups, long term. They may start right away, but will be destined to be replaced as time goes on. Hopefully we get more than our fair share of long term starters our of these last 2 drafts. However, even if we do, it will take time.

This is going to be a difficult year. Maybe RG3 plays at the level he did as a rookie, and that would help a great deal .... but I still see no way we win more than 5 games, even if everything goes as well as can be expected.


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Draw a line in the middle. of offense to the middle of defense. If those positions do their job we will shock the hell out of a lot of experts. If they dont we are a 2-6 win team at best.

QB-Center-NT, ILB, SS and FS Those positions decide our fate. These are however the positions with the biggest ?????????

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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Quote:
Anybody who actually goes and compares rosters can figure it out pretty quickly. Well, anybody who knows anything about football or on some drive agenda.....


Our roster sucks. The team won 3 games last year and the roster got worse. The Browns suck. Anyone who knows football or doesn't have an agenda can see that.


I do not think this roster is worse. There was some good players lost yes. But, there is overall more depth on this years roster. There is much more team speed on both sides of the ball. Last years offense had to grind out long drives to score. This team actually, has explosive players throughout the skill positions. This team will have issues no doubt, turnovers, mistakes, but they will do it 100 miles per hour. Last years team would just quit when things got tough.


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Not to mention that we'll have coaches again.

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The coaching staff is the biggest upgrade. Last year's staff made the 76 Bucs staff look like the Pats staff.
It was a joke.
As far as the roster goes the Browns had cap money to
Upgrade very weak spots at WR and LB and all I see is
DeMario Davis
The guys replacing Danby and Schwartz arent upgrades.
Mack was over rated to begin with.
I see a very young WR group without that vet to help
The Young kids
There is no reliable pass catcher at TE behind Barnidge.
On defense who are the guys that can bring the hammer?
Where's the tone setters.?
This is a 3 win team 4 at best

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You guys act like a roster is determined solely on talent. How about the coaching staff, getting the most outta that talent and putting that talent in situations where that talent can prosper?

I don't think it's completely fair to judge the talent of the roster last year to this, as there's no secret we had a pretty stinky staff and etc last year. They may have, or probably, hindered that talent.

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All of our shifty WR's were running basic deep routes that didn't require much cutting. It didn't allow our WR's to get out in front of the defense. Talking about defense, did we have one last year? Between Kruger and Shelton covering and no one blitzing, it's no wonder we got our butt handed to us. But hey, these new guys we have aren't completely hopeless.

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Originally Posted By: mac
I'm not going claim they suck until they show me on the football field, that they suck.

Hue Jackson and his coaching staff will be the most experienced new coaching staff the Browns have had since returning in 99. I believe their ability to teach the game could be a difference maker.

Depending on how quickly these young guys learn from the new coaching staff... they might surprise us. I will try to hold judgement until I see the performance on the field.


I admire the attitude, mac. Unfortunately, based on the product I have cheered for the past several years, I will think they suck until they show me they do not. I agree with the one poster that said the roster, right now, is worse than last year's 3-13 squad. I may be wrong, and I hope I am, but I need to see it.

This is my team, and nothing will change that. Me thinking we are in for a long, long year does not make me not a fan.

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Quote:
This is my team, and nothing will change that. Me thinking we are in for a long, long year does not make me not a fan.


cap...I like that... thumbsup


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Damonshot what got me as I overlooked it again last night was that Pittsburgh has 39, if you include the 12, 39 players that have more 3 or more years experience.

a quick glance and I get, about 17 players in that category on the Browns right now.

To give them an almost equal number of 38.
Players like Lb DeMario Davis
Qb, RG3
Wr Terrelle Pryor
Ol Michael Bowie.
But the difference that is notable is Pittsburgh is getting players with 6 or 7 years experience with another team, while the Browns are getting players with 2 or 3 years experience with another team.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Quote:
Anybody who actually goes and compares rosters can figure it out pretty quickly. Well, anybody who knows anything about football or on some drive agenda.....


Our roster sucks. The team won 3 games last year and the roster got worse. The Browns suck. Anyone who knows football or doesn't have an agenda can see that.



You could be right. I suppose we will see as the season unfolds.


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Originally Posted By: Damanshot
I'd love to see this same information on a team like Seattle or New England or Pittsburgh or Denver.

Just to compare the percentages of teams known to be pretty darn good and us.

That may either tell us that turnover is not a big deal or that it is a big deal.



The Bengals have 33 players on their roster who have been Bengals since Sept, 2014, or before; Plus 2 in the iffy category who were Bengals, left during 2014 and came back. Plus 2 who did not play during 2015, injured reserve I guess.

That's 37, and four more players with more than 3 years experience but not with the Bengals in September 2014. Chykie Brown, Cb. with 5 years
Karlos Dansby lb, with 13
Brandon LaFell wr, with 7 years
And Eric Winston OL, with 10 years.
Apart from Joe Thomas, the Bengals appear much more to have continuity on the OL. and DL.

Again, the Browns have 21, plus 17.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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The Bengals and Steelers have similar philosophies
Building their rosters.
Why the Browns never got the hint is beyond me.
Usually teams that make the playoffs draft well
And don't have to force their draft picks right away
To start
They can be eased into starting roles.
The Steelers and Bengals hit on early picks
And find impact football players after the 1st rd.

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I think people are making way too big of a deal about the coaching. One word comes to mind-------------delusional.

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It looks like it's just you, me and Pit, Vers......oh, and Diam. Hahahaha. At least I'm in good company. Should be an interesting season.

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