DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Discussion on Hue's offense w/Griffin

No doubt chemistry is important for an OL, and this unit returns 4 guys that have played together and 3 of those 4 are established solid players.

I think Erving's role is important but in the overall structure of the OL I think Center is one of the most overrated positions. With Joe and Greco playing beside him, I think he'll be at least adequate. If you look at the Bengal's OL from last year their center play according to PFF wasn't much better then Erving.

I think line calls are extremely important.

Just to add. If this was a situation where an existing O was here, it would enable the veterans on both sides of Erving to help him learn the existing system. However, as it stands they too are in the process of learning a new O scheme.

This process appears to be far less seamless as some seem to suggest.

I don't recall anyone saying the transition to a new scheme (I believe), and the assimilation of 2 new starters, would be "seamless". Most believe there will be a learning curve, some shorter, some longer to get up to speed...

I agree to an extent. I don't think there is as direct a correlation between having a good OL to have a good rushing attack.

It no doubt helps to have a good OL. But as Browns fans experienced even having an above average OL doesn't equate to having a good rushing offense.

Those 3 players you mention all but ensures at least a decent OL even if Erving and RT are below average. The talent on projected OL with Erving/RT as below average players is on par via PFF grades with the Cinci OL of last year which produced a top 13 rushing attack.

Naturally, I consider health to be such an obviously pivotal factor that it went without saying.

Personally, I'm not a prediction guy myself; but I also didn't want to finish this thread posting information that few read and fewer comment upon. Adding the prediction element seems to create more interest then anything else I posted.

All valid points, on the flip side we could look at how more tangible factors like....comparing personnel, philosophy, schedule, coaching, scheme etc could impact the run game.

Agreed on the first part. Not sure if that's a thing on the second part, does having 4th qtr leads equate to top 10 run offense? Afterall plenty of passing teams have 4th qtr leads also. I would curious to see the numbers on that.

This is one of the weirdest mental gymnastics contortions I've ever read. I came away not even wanting to have a good running game, lol.

And some [me] believe that talent is important and we now have less talent on the OL than we did have.

Can you or someone explain some things to me?

The center typically makes the line calls but the Qb calls the protections? What's the difference? How do those 2 calls work in sync?

I have heard about teams with young (particularly rookie) centers having a veteran guard make the line calls. What's the disadvantages to that? Why wouldn't we have Greco making the line calls with Erving at center? What's the downside?

Greco has made the line calls before and he probably will this year. The point is that Mack was known for how outstanding he was at that particular part of the game. This is a point that can't be proven, but some said he was the best in the entire NFL at making line calls.

What do you think will happen with the run game this year? Where would you project them?

I have kinda stayed clear of all that, ed. I find it hard to make predictions when all we have to go by is Hue's brief stints as either HC or OC and what the Browns did last year.

I haven't said much because I did not want to rain on your parade. Your posts are intelligent and logical. That's a great thing. I didn't want to discourage that line of thinking. I just don't think I can add much because I think the talent levels of the teams you are comparing are so vastly different.

Thus, I really can't answer your question.

I can say this..........I do think that Hue will be more like Shanny than Flip in that he will commit to the run and not abandon it if it isn't working early. I think that is a good thing.

I struggle to make predictions about how effective it will be because of the following reasons:

--We have a revamped OL and I am not buying into that it will work out okay. It could, but I don't think that is a given.

--We have question marks at qb.

--Our WRs our mostly inexperienced and not good route runners. Hawkins is a good route runner, but I question his courage. We got rid of our most dependable guy. I understand the move, but it won't help this year's team.

--We got a bunch of rookie WRs that will most likely struggle w/route running, hot reads, sight adjustments, post snap reads of coverages, etc...

--we are implementing a new system w/a new qb and a different OL and different WRs. Yikes.

--I like Crow, but he ain't great. I think Duke leaves a ton of yards on the field as a runner. I played RB in college and know a bit about the position. Don't go laterally when you need three more yards, son. What's crazy is...........the RBs are the least of my concerns. I just don't think they are great enough to carry us.

--Due to our lack of passing game, I think teams will be able to stack the LOS on primary run downs and shut us down. This will change if one of our qbs really steps up and our passing game somehow morphs into a legit threat. If that happens, then our running game will improve by leaps and bounds. However, if we have to rely on the running game to open up our passing game.....well.......I just ain't feeling it.

Naturally there are unknowns.

In football though I think the adage of...~best indication of future performance is past performance rings true to me.

I'm surprised at the hesitancy of most to discuss the upcoming offense via research or prediction or any means.

I'm not really a prediction guy myself, but I was getting bored with the lack of actual discussion and realized that despite some protests about predictions the discussion of predictions spurned dislogue.

If you're still interested in this discusdion I'm gonna respond to the bones of your post...

To each their own. But, I wasn't only comparing the Hue's Browns with Hue's Bengals but with the league as whole.

I guess I don't understand how a direct comparison of the Browns OL to Bengals can be viewed as vastly different.

I've posted their rankings from third party sources and from my vantage point the OLs are very similar.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-lines-this-season/

Even if we assume that Erving and Pastor/Coleman/Drango will struggle the talent levels still seems very comparable.
PFF studs/duds project to the same positions stud-LT dud-Center. Even the summary seems to match what many project: strong at LT and OG and weak at OC and RT.


Agreed. And I think Hue's belief in the running game is 'thee' most important factor in the success of the run game.

For me the pros of the run game outweigh the cons. For the pros are:
-Hue's/organizational belief in the run game
-Offensive scheme/coaching
-Decent talent on OL
-Good RB talent
-QB as contributor to the running yards AND more importantly as a run threat


The comments below aren't directly in regards to the run game. But a direct comment about route running. I think its too early to say one way or another about the WR route running. And if we're going by college Payton and Higgins especially were praised for their route running.
Coleman wasn't a bad route runner either, in fact he was dominant in the routes that he ran. (Louis too from a yards per route run perspective). Coleman's knock wasn't really about his ability to run routes but rather the question mark that many WRs from spread systems face...can they learn to run a full NFL route tree? Many spread receivers have made the transition. For those reason's I can't agree that the WRs aren't good route runners, inexperienced to be sure.

Maybe these changes will be for the better? After all the previous pieces didn't produce a good rushing offense.

You proly didn't even realize it but you're actually making a strong prediction in your first sentence. You are predicting there will be a lack of a passing game.

If by stacking the LOS you mean building an eight man box, then I would say that good running teams are able to run against strong run fronts. I don't think having a good run game necessarily requires a strong passing attack. It helps to be sure, but I don't consider it a prerequisite.

Based on everything you've said, would I be wrong to peg you as pessimist when it comes to the run game this year? If so could you at least answer whether or not you think the run game will better/worse or equal to last year?

(Is there a way to do polls/poll threads?)

-Cheers I really appreciate your views and contributions to these discussions (wish you would enter the fray sooner)

And my point was simply that I'm don't think the running success will be a direct function of 4th qtr leads. Would it help? Sure. But, for me there are more direct tangible factors that will impact the run game.

Only in the Polls forum. (K-9 Consensus)

ed, I didn't realize I was supposed to only be talking about the run game. I was talking about the entire offense. That's what the title of the thread says.

I do think the run game will be better this year, if for no other reason, we will run more.

Interesting. Never heard that about Mack. How does Greco measure up? Hope he can do a good job, well above average. Not sure how this gets measured or graded out.

I think it will be better as well. Improved run will help. Moving the sticks is always good, especially with a lead.

Sometimes you are practicing, say something like the running game, across the season within games. That sounds weird, but I really believe getting better at football boils down to reps. I hope you are right.

So are we going to be A) Throw to run, or B) run to throw in your best guess. The "smash mouth" promise didn't show up like intended. I hope we run first choice if we can; the verticals and drags can be devastating.

Whichever we choose, manipulating the box on offense is giant. So overloaded so ften last year. Just hope we get good aggressive play calling.

Based on Hue's past and the current personnel I would think that the offense will be run first with play-action designed for chunk yardage.

I think being a team that substitutes short quick passes for runs take more timing, chemistry and precision then can be expected from year 1 of a new program.

But, running the ball by comparison is much simpler. First for the OL its easier to run block then to pass block and run the ball builds a physical confidence within the OL.

Also, the run game personnel is far more proven then the passing game. 3 solid run blocking OL, 2 solid ball carriers and a QB that is a run threat to the backside contain. Griffin creates an even more favorable running situation then running teams with more "traditional" QBs.

My gut feeling based on the moves we've made this off season and the attitude/culture Hue is trying to instill, I think we're very likely to see good aggressive play calling. When you look at the RB's, we know Crow can score inside the 20 and Duke in space has a chance to take it to the house. Barnidge is always a big threat and when you look at the WR's we brought in, they look like a group of guys that have the potential to score from anywhere on the field.

I think some of the problem with past offenses was that while admittedly we may have been lacking in talent, the offense was tailored around that lack of talent. Obviously you have to tailor the offense to what you have, but when you reach the point that your focus of conceding that you are outmatched takes precedent over a belief that you have guys that can be successful, you've already lost because you've inherently limited yourself.

Plus having an offense who's main purpose is keeping the opposing offense off the field vs. scoring every chance you get I think would run contrary to what we're seeing so far.

If RG3 is going to be our bright shiney new QB then I don't want him running much at all. I'd like to see him acutally finish the season. Not get his knees all banged up playing RB. All I want from him is to make his reads, play within the system, make accurate passes and stay healthy. I am very happy to hear reports than RG3 IS making it a point to BE coachable and that unlike in Washington he's pointedly throwing the ball away.... Something he refused to do under both Shanahan and Gruden as he insisted he hated giving up on plays...

This is an important improvement. Throwing the ball away is going to keep him a good deal healthier. If RG3 is our game 1 starter then I'd really like him to be our game 16 starter. A healthy season for a Browns QB. Wouldn't that be a wonderful change?

Neither I don't believe.... Hue Jackson seems to be a coach that really does run a ballanced offense. It's pretty damned close to being even run/pass. Of course one week may favor ground over air or the opposite.... but in general he doesn't seem to favor either. He tries very hard to do both with equal aplomb.

You make perfect sense Tab. Playing from behind lends itself to passing more and always has. Especially later in the game.

Scrambling? Bootlegs? Read-option? Which form of running don't you want to see?
Not using Griffin as a run threat through bootlegs/read option in my opinion is wasting a valuable asset to the offense.


Its the NFL players get hurt. Every position. Every year. And Griffin didn't get injured as rookie because of read-option, Griffin got injured scrambling when the pass protection broke down.
Griffin ran read-option in 2013 without injury. Let's not turn Griffin's risk of injury into Sam Bradford or Tony Romo.

Finally we agree. I think a system built to maximize Griffin includes using him as run threat.


...Is that you Mike Shanahan? Refused, insisted...lol.

Yup, I agree there. See we've agreed twice now?
Griffin placing an emphasis on throwing the ball away and sliding are good improvements. Griffin playing in offense and with coaches that are willing to development him is also a nice improvement.

From looking up Hue's history and his own comments, he is a run first oriented coach. And in today's modern 'passing league' the run/pass ratio may as well be graded on a curve where being balanced is akin to being run 1st.

Continuation of conversation on zone read that I forgot to post in this thread:

Absolutely. We saw how important the center position is to the run game when Mack went down two seasons ago. Coach likes to run and do so often. Very close to 50/50 run/pass. So IMO ALL the line positions are vital to this particular offense. They have to get good push in the run game as well as pass blcok in this blitz heavy division! That starts with the Center on out....

Read option gets a QB killed unless he's Cam Newton. You want our QB to run run run? Then draft a guy that's 6'6 260+ and built like a linebacker. You want to get RG3 killed? Run him like a RB 15+ times a game.

The only QB capable of running that read option stuff IS RG3. So if he oges down you think McCown can run it? Or will we have to have two completely different offenses? One for RG3 and another for everyone else?

I hope we don't run any of that crap. I hope we develop RG3 as well as all of our other QB's into POCKET passers. RG3 has plenty of arm. He's quick enough to move just enough in the pocket to see his man and deliver the ball. If nothing is there? Throw it away and LIVE to play another down! Just saying.... A healthy RG3 can be an asset. An RG3 on IR is useless to us.

The read option only gets the QB killed when he makes the wrong read and doesn't slide when he does run.

QBs can get lit up when they are drop back passing, too. I guess we shouldn't let RG3 do that either. Football is a violent sport.

I'm not saying it should be a focal point of our offense, but there are situations where it can be effective. The more ways you can threaten a D, the harder it is for them to predict what you are going to do.

Ask Joe Theismann if you can get hurt in pocket...want our Qbs to pocket pass, roll out, and pitch it out to RB like we did in Jim Brown's championship days...be unpredictable...GO Browns!!!

You realize that Theisman was hurt while rolling out.......right?

They were running a flea flicker he tried to move up and LT crushed him. Well didnt crush him but dove and crushed his ankle

[url=tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7acc6qwcmQ][url=tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7acc6qwcmQ][url=tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7acc6qwcmQ]tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7acc6qwcmQ[/url][/url][/url]

Didn't roll out...flea flicker and stepped up a little maybe took one step to the left and up.

LT fell on his leg at an awkward angle. That's why it broke in several places.

Joe Thizeman's last name isn't pronounced Thighs-men. People changed it to rhyme with Heisman when Joe thizeman was at notre dame

It's like Theezemen.