DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Worst case scenario

I pretty much agree with everything here bone.

To me, if RG3 is a complete dumpster fire we can't possibly be an improved team. Sure, McCown is still available, but he's a below average option as well all know.

Also, it would be terrible if our rookies don't show any upside. Guys like Coleman, Ogbah, Schobert, Nassib MUST be effective players in time.

He had the 15th best passer rating in the NFL last year. That isn't below average by any definition.

He managed to do that with pretty much no receivers and garbage for a running game.

doesn't he have 1 win in like 3 years? I know wins aren't always on the QB ... but 1 win in 3 years is more than a coincidence IMO

When he starts playing both sides of the ball, I'll go by Wins.

He produced. Period.

Anyone watching the games last year could see that QB was not even remotely our biggest problem by any stretch of the imagination.

I think both of you guys are right on this one........if that makes any sense.

I'd agree with this statement ... but that also speaks volumes to just how bad EVERY area of our football team was last season.

Well, that certainly is very much the worst case I guess.

I won't dispute that, at all.
Still - despite all of that (and let that sink in a bit), he was still the 15th best passer in the league last year. That says something.

What, exactly, I'm not too sure... but, it says something, lol.

Of your two scenarios, this one seems the most likely. Or if you put them on a sliding scale I expect to see the needle rest more toward this end. I don't see my thinking as blind pessimism either, just what my own "analysis" tells me.

1) I think there are real issues with RG3, and his ability to read defenses, find the open man, and get the ball out quickly and accurately. I will not be surprised if McCown starts the season or takes over early. However, I wouldn't expect him to play long if he does get in. So we could be starting Kessler anytime from mid-season on, meaning, season over.

2) I believe center will be an issue.

3) I have zero faith in our WR corp. Based on merit and compounded by, and in conjunction with, QB play.

4) Looking at the o-line, WRs & QB play as I fear it may pan out, and we've got a hot mess on offense, one that cannot be saved by a middle-of-the-road running game.

5) D? Pfh... I think we have real issues here at every layer. Pass rush? Not yet. Run stopping ability? Not that we know of. Coverage? Meh... Safety help? Who knows? And how about a D-coord who historically gives up a buttload of points? 27.2 ppg?

6) With no O and a porous D, WCS, we don't win a game. Silver lining? We pick first. Drawback? We don't do jack squat with the pick because we trade down to get fifteen or sixteen more middle round players to build an impressive analytics team... on paper.

And this is the BEST time of the year for the Browns. GO BROWNS.

Lets not forget just how bad the coaching throughout the entire team was the last two year and then there was the Manziel disruptions, oh and a suspended GM who wanted to coach the team. Oh and a defensive system that nobody bought into.

We really don't know what we have yet, this year could be a complete disaster or it could surprise many.

Everyone has an opinion, time will tell which are correct-

Of your two scenarios, this one seems the most likely. Or if you put them on a sliding scale I expect to see the needle rest more toward this end. I don't see my thinking as blind pessimism either, just what my own "analysis" tells me.

1) I think there are real issues with RG3, and his ability to read defenses, find the open man, and get the ball out quickly and accurately. I will not be surprised if McCown starts the season or takes over early. However, I wouldn't expect him to play long if he does get in. So we could be starting Kessler anytime from mid-season on, meaning, season over.

2) I believe center will be an issue.

3) I have zero faith in our WR corp. Based on merit and compounded by, and in conjunction with, QB play.

4) Looking at the o-line, WRs & QB play as I fear it may pan out, and we've got a hot mess on offense, one that cannot be saved by a middle-of-the-road running game.

5) D? Pfh... I think we have real issues here at every layer. Pass rush? Not yet. Run stopping ability? Not that we know of. Coverage? Meh... Safety help? Who knows? And how about a D-coord who historically gives up a buttload of points? 27.2 ppg?

6) With no O and a porous D, WCS, we don't win a game. Silver lining? We pick first. Drawback? We don't do jack squat with the pick because we trade down to get fifteen or sixteen more middle round players to build an impressive analytics team... on paper.

And this is the BEST time of the year for the Browns. GO BROWNS. thumbsup

responses to opinion
1) your opinion is RGIII stinks- the New HC, has different opinion- which to trust
2)center issue- our replacement was high ranked in college than Mack AND he was hosed by old coaching staff- he's in position now- no excuses- time will tell.
3)no faith in WRs- we got rid of old/and Rabbit who wanted to leave- brought in All American, standouts at several schools, retained good slot, got back a hungry/needy All Pro, and have All Pro TE, and Johnson, who many pun-dents are expecting to" breakout" this year- none of coaches are saying we are hurting, time will tell-Oh, and Pryor - another freak athlete, trying to feed wife/kids/himself- he's hungry and desperate.....I like our mix.
4)middle of road- last year is last year, we had poor coaching staff, no line coach for long period,etc. etc- we now have "a gifted offensive HC"- time will tell- my opinion, we will be MUCH better on O>
5)D stunk last year, D under Horton, when HERE was good- the players WANT to play for this coaching staff AND this staff believes in attacking as last years was passive- way different- my opinion, we will be better on D- can't be much worse.
6-worst case- we lose every game- and we blow up everything again...get first pick....JMHO, you are old school, you didn't like trading down...fine, time will tell IF you are smarter than new leadership of Browns- are you Harvard grad- only dummys attend there....right....GO Browns!!!! AND tomorrow this team hits for first time- some posters will have us breaking bones on every player and we can get replacements from Capital/KSU/Baldwin Wallace.......GO Browns!!!

Can you provide actual proof as just how bad the coaching staff was last year?

As you say, time will tell. I appreciate your optimism. You're obviously blissfully trusting and your snide commentary effectively illustrates how ivy league degrees will guarantee success.

Most of them were fired.

And a plethora of quotes from players.

Until first real game/ or hitting, why constant negativity- decades of losses and regime after regime, still...this is new leadership that players have seemingly bought into...why not some positive...JMHO- I'd bet on Ivy League over CSU/KSU every time...competition and brain power to get in...easy choice...GO Browns....PS..not slamming KSU, I attended long ago....Go Golden Flashes!!!

You guys are setting yourselves up yet again.

For what? 2016 and 4-12 as I expect?

How bout 2017/18++++++

I think it's a problem when a lot of people have high--and unrealistic--expectations. We see it all the time w/the Browns.

They talk themselves into believing the team has more talent than it really does. They overrate the coaches and the FO. They call themselves "positive" people and look down on the "negative" posters.

Then, the seasons [usually two] play out and the team's record is poor and there is blame to be assigned. Coaches get fired. The very same coaches who were praised for being brilliant and how "it really feels different this time" w/these coaches, are now considered "trash." FO personnel are fired and/or reassigned. Established players are lost because "we only won 3 games w/them, how good can they be?"

Methinks the "positive" posters are dangerous to the well-being of the coaches, front office types, and even some of the players. Then again, I'm just a really negative person who is stupid enough to believe that perhaps the team might be better off w/out firing everyone every couple of years.

I think there is plenty of "positive" being written here and lots of "hopeful" too, and that's great, I have no issue with anyone seeing things that way, and in fact am "hopeful" myself. I'm simply putting down concerns as I see them. On the positive side, I'm feeling good about what the coaching staff may bring to the party, I just feel we have serious issues talent-wise. I'm looking forward to seeing what the team looks like in the preseason games and seeing whether or not some of my concerns have been addressed or are mitigated in some way. It's possible the issues won't be as extreme as I imagine, but I can't help thinking that the issues are real and won't simply just go away. Bottom line, I feel there will need to be an extraordinary amount of work, improvement and fundamental change to overcome all of the various shortcomings, as I see them.

Re: Sashi and Paul, I have no issue with hiring smart, dedicated people, it's necessary to succeed. My issue is with their qualifications and experience and whether or not they end up outsmarting themselves under the belief that they're smarter than everyone else in the NFL. We've seen this type of self-aggrandizement wreck our teams in the past. Of course I know only time will tell with this as well, but they've made some questionable moves, IMO, that smack of that type of thinking.

I think the original post looks like every season just the names have changed.

JMHO, the owner tried the traditional front office, several times, he's trying something new, that always breeds skeptics...front office not qualified, I like their responses- people business and hired guys to give them input on choices= looks like their HAUL for number 2 pick was more than sound with reports of Wentz not even active for first game- all Browns fans know we need to draft better, time will tell if we hit on some gems- Coleman, big O, are showing potential...glad you prefer brains to just there...I personally like the statement of Jimmy Johnson to Bill B...something like this...hit me with a hammer if I ever draft another dumb guy...dumb is dumb...I like all our draft picks, high character, want to, overachievers mostly....time will tell IF the front office and team do well....the sky isn't falling and Hue has the team on his back...we will see where they go.....doubled win column would be nice....Go Browns!!!!

4-12 honestly sounds about right. I think this team is bad. I read through the OP and it didn't even read like a worst case scenario to me. It sounded more like things that are probably going to happen (well, probably not all of them, if that is any consolation). Hopefully Hue gets some time to turn things around because this is not a talented roster.

I get your thinking on most of your post, except for this:



There is no correlation here. Wentz isn't sitting because he's not talented and wasn't a good pick, he's sitting because they have two highly paid QBs in front of him, and want to give him time to learn and grow.

We won't know if the "haul" was sound for years. If all of our draft picks become solid starters or contributors and Wentz turns out average, then yeah, maybe it was a sound decision. However, if Wentz turns out to be a franchise-type QB with wins and playoff runs, and our "haul" turns out to be just another mediocre draft, then no, it wasn't sound. Also, much will depend on what we do with the picks we acquired for next year. We'll have to wait and see. We all want it go go our way, but at this point, no one knows.

Everything you stated is valid...yet, you didn't state worst case for Wentz- he flames out like many other franchise QBs like picks Minn, Jacksonville, NYJ,etc, etc.- AND us, we've dumped way to many picks on finding the guy...JMHO, KC's Smith isn't flashy, but leaving SF hasn't hurt him much....smart and successful...as you stated time will tell IF our trading works out- I like the numbers game so far....Plus, if we are as bad as many think/hope...several real high picks next year...would you take Wentz over the Clemson QB...I wouldn't....GO Browns!!!!

You have issues. My goodness!

Bizarre.

Worst case scenario?

This team wins one game too many and we miss out on drafting Deshaun Watson!

And where are they now?

The players or the coaches?

I think the point was that none of the coaches (that I know of anyway) that were released/fired after last season have been offered jobs with other teams. Hence, where are they now?

Really? You might wanna check your facts, boss.

I think Pettine is the only one without a job. O'Neill is the defensive coordinator for the 49ers and DeFilippo is the QB coach for the Eagles. Kevin O'Connell is the QB coach for the 49ers. Wilbert Montgomery is unemployed. Joker Phillips got hired by Ohio State. George DeLeone is the offensive line coach at Temple. Kurt Roper is the OC for South Carolina. Anthony Weaver is the defensive line coach for the Texans. Jeff Hafley is the defensive backs coach for the 49ers. Aaron Glenn is the defensive backs coach for the Saints.

There are others, but those are the ones who have Wikipedia pages.

As I said, as far as I know. I haven't been following, and I stand corrected.

Yes they are..

I make a post like this post nearly every year, I will do my best to make examples to help build my case but we are truly a team that chases its tail more often then not, and the main reason for that like most of you those with the power within the organization (Haslim) don't understand how to build. And YES I do understand how to build a football team, and YES its simple it really is.

1st notice I don't say re build and thats the 1st mistake. There is no such a thing within an organization that is successful.

Lets look shall we?

1st rule of building keep good players and add in more good players thru the draft. We don't do that we let guys like, Ward, Mack, Gibson, Swartz, Shread, Skrine, Rubin, Cameron, etc., etc. The list in fact so long I can't remember them all.

But here is the key you add to the talent you replace talent as better talent becomes available. We keep doing wholesale change and in the end we are the dawgs chasing our tail.

Teams players and organization that engage in wholesale changes particularly on the player side of things always regress. Teams, players, coaches, and organizations move up the food chain the longer they are together its just that simple.

The longer players play along side one another the better they are as a team. By not retaining our talent we condemn ourselves to perpetual losing.

This is how this whole thing plays out. We suck this year because we are young and have zero playing time together, so in the rush to judge we eject some of the young talent we are on the fence about in favor of veteran leadership, which doesn't make the team better in fact it makes it worse, look at the evidence you have it right in front of you. We have done this rebuild thing repeatedly, use its history to guide you then put that up against teams that win.

BTW I believe coaching is important but at this level its pretty damned even. Playing time trumps everything.

Teams play better the longer they are together period. The talent level does matter no question but there is NO great disparity in talent in the NFL, the real difference is time playing TOGETHER. The difference in winning and losing is narrow that 1,2,3 plays a game that result from time playing together are the difference more often then not.

When you hear a coach like Horton say we are just trying to figure out how the pieces fit together, what is it you are hearing?

What I hear is these guys haven't spent enough time playing together for me to evaluate who should even play much less how to use them. That spells losing every single time. You can choose to ignore what he said or you can listen to what he said and put it together and its true meaning.

I call it roster flipping, when we STOP roster flipping will get better. That doesn't mean you don't swap out players. What you do NOT do is you do NOT let solid players go in favor of the unknown. And when you do bring in players you fit them in slowly over time. When you make wholesale roster flips forget it you lose. Oh yeah there is the 2% chance that it all works out but its highly unlikely.

You must be steady, you must, stick with young talent and allow them to grow and improve. But we don't ever do that when a player reaches their second contract we let them go and suffer greatly for it.

At the end of the day will suck this year, what we can hope for, is we work hard, play hard, and grow together and get better as the season wears on, anything beyond that is dreamy eyed fairy tail stuff.

Player retention is the key to future success sense we hit the reset will suck to a near dead certainty. I don't like it either but when we stop re building and start building around the talent we do have will begin to reap the benefits. But if history is our guide 2 years from now I will be giving you all the same speech. SAD

Yep, it's hard for the "next man up" to perform well when he hasn't been w/the team very long.

You see some teams like New England and Pittsburgh who always seem to be replacing guys effectively. It's pretty simple........they don't blow things up every couple of years and their backups are more than familiar w/the system.

This may be true but, you have to have the right players. It is blatantly obvious we haven't succeeded in this area, as of yet.

Ultimately none of us know how the Browns will fare this season. We may surprise, we may be competitive, we may be terrible. Who knows? There is a lot to say about coaching and chemistry. If you get these two right any team can over achieve their potential. Don't believe me? Look at Leicester City FC in England. A rag tag group who were never expected to win many and certainly not the championship. No big household names on their squad but, what they did have was belief in each other and their abilities, great coaching and from everything you read...incredible chemistry as a team. They surprised all and won the FA Cup.

Wanna look closer to home?

Portland Trailblazers. In the 2015 offseason they shed numerous big name players. Even though they had made it to the playoffs and were gelling the GM and the HC made the decision to go young and build the team around Damian Lillard rather than LaMarcus Aldridge. They accepted that with these decisions the 2015-2016 season may be tough but, was necessary for the future of the franchise. Nobody gave them a chance and before the season started most NBA journos and "experts" predicted Portland to be the worst team in the league. However, with excellent coaching and players who had an amazing chemistry they won and continued to win. They surprised all, finished 5th in the West and made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs. They lost in 5 but, look at the stats and the scores of the last 3 of that GSW series. They pushed GSW to the brink and many will credit the Trailblazers for zapping a lot out of GSW before they reached the Championship.

Of course I am not saying this will happen for the Browns season. I have no idea. Just like folks in here have no idea if they will be terrible or not. We don't see all the work behind the scenes, we don't know the locker room climate, we don't know what preparations they are going thorough to make them more competitive than in the past.

I am realistic that this season may not be a winning season, however, as long as they show they are trending in the right direction....maybe win a few more games than last season, have a better defense, show they can move the ball and score points...compete. I will be happy. With another solid draft I would hope next season is even more competitive and maybe even playoffs. By year 3 of the system and coaches I hope for us to be deep in the playoffs.

However, I also hold out a bit of hope for that amazing cinderella story like Leicester and Portland. Maybe, just maybe, the stars all align perfectly. Hue and co. tap into something with the guys in the locker room, that they gel with chemistry unseen in Cleveland for decades and maybe they might just surprise all, including their most die hard fans.

Who knows. But, the one thing I can say for sure is ...right now, today, I cannot say for sure (as some of you are willing to commit to saying or somehow seem to know for sure) that they are going to be terrible.

Lets wait and see and hopefully we will enjoy the smooth (and bumpy) ride we are about to go on.