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This is rather long, but I think it provides an interesting look at one of the cultures that exists in our country. Don't let the title jade your objectivity.



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Why ‘white trash’ Americans are flocking to Donald Trump
By Kyle Smith July 30, 2016 | 5:26am



When J.D. Vance was a boy, his beloved grandmother “Mamaw” told her boozer husband that if he ever came home drunk again, she’d kill him. When he did, and passed out on the couch, she got a gasoline can, poured fuel all over him and dropped a lit match on his chest. He survived with mild burns, and later quit drinking.

One time when J.D.’s mom took exception to something the boy said in the car, she hit the accelerator and sped up to 100 miles per hour, screaming that she was going to kill them both. When he jumped in the backseat hoping to protect himself from the impact, he recalls, she instead pulled the car over “to beat the s- -t out of me.” The evening concluded with Mom being hauled away in a police car.

One of J.D.’s stepdads, Bob, though kindhearted, had a bad case of “Mountain Dew mouth.” Half his teeth had fallen out, the other half were black, brown and misshapen.


J.D. and his people are called rednecks, white trash, hillbillies. But Vance made it out of the holler, way out. The Marines led him to Ohio State, then Yale Law School and finally a job as a principal at a Silicon Valley investment firm. Looking back on his youth, and all he fled, yields a frank, unsentimental, harrowing memoir, “Hillbilly Elegy.” It’s a superb book given an extra layer of importance by its political reverberations: When Vance returns home these days, he sees yard after yard festooned with Trump signs.

Nancy Pelosi says blue-collar white men vote “against their own economic interests” because of guns, gays and God, “God being the woman’s right to choose.” The Washington Post noted that this group does care about gun rights more than the average voter but it’s a myth that their views on gays and God differ much from everyone else’s, and Pelosi’s regal dismissal of the bitter clingers is not only too reductive, it’s an attitude that drives voters away from the Democratic Party.

Though “Hillbilly Elegy” is about people, not politics, it is an eye-opening field guide to an unruly and hard-to-understand group, many of them born and bred Democrats, who could cost Hillary Clinton what looked like an easy election win. White voters without a college degree have favored Republicans for some time — they voted for Mitt Romney by 18 points in 2012 — but they love Donald Trump. In an average of six polls this month, he is beating Clinton by a margin of 58 to 30 among these voters. The massive swing of white working-class voters, who made up 44 percent of the electorate in 2012, could more than cancel out her strengths among minorities and the college-educated.

Vance paints a picture of a world exactly like the one Trump described in his acceptance speech 10 days ago. He grew up in Jackson, Ky., and nearby Middletown, Ohio, a once-prosperous industrial town where everyone seemed to work for the steel company Armco. Back in the 1960s, the company would actively recruit new workers from the hills of eastern Kentucky, taking care to preserve families by encouraging relatives to move in also. “For my grandparents,” Vance writes, “Armco was an economic savior — the engine that brought them from the hills of Kentucky to America’s middle class.” Vance’s Papaw would proudly stop by car dealerships to explain to J.D. that this or that car was built with Armco steel. He retired with a generous pension.

It is an eye-opening field guide to an unruly and hard-to-understand group, many of them born and bred Democrats.
After a 1989 merger with Kawasaki, the company became AK Steel. It still exists, but many factory jobs in Middletown disappeared. Real-estate prices collapsed. Those who could afford to cut their losses left town; others were trapped in houses they couldn’t sell because they were worth less than what was owed on the mortgages. Downtown, prosperous shops turned into empty storefronts and poverty-exploiting businesses like cash-for-gold shops and payday lenders. Two local malls that were bustling as recently as the early 1990s are now dead, one of them turned into a parking lot. Crime and dread began to infect the night. “A street that was once the pride of Middletown today serves as a meeting spot for druggies and dealers,” Vance says.

Vance shuttled between the care of Mamaw and his mother, who burned through men and drugs. Once she was fired from her nursing job for rollerskating through the hospital, high on prescription meds she had stolen from the pharmacy. In a moment of panic, she once asked her son for a urine sample so she could pass a surprise whiz quiz as a condition of her job. He complied, feeling shamed and dirtied.


There are decaying post-industrial Middletowns all over the map. In 1970, Vance notes, 25 percent of white children lived in neighborhoods with poverty rates above 10 percent. By 2000 the figure had risen to 40 percent, and Vance believes it is higher today. The life expectancy for Vance’s people is declining.

Trump’s promises to stand up to the Chinese are resonating, as is his message that “the system is rigged” against a proud group of Americans, Americans who built the postwar glory but now feel they’re being ignored or outright mocked. White trash is the one ethnic group it is still OK to make fun of.

“Humans appear to have some need to look down on someone; there’s just a basic tribalistic impulse in all of us,” Vance recently told The American Conservative. “And if you’re an elite white professional, working-class whites are an easy target: You don’t have to feel guilty for being a racist or a xenophobe. By looking down on the hillbilly, you can get that high of self-righteousness and superiority without violating any of the moral norms of your own tribe.”

Mapping the politics of Vance’s clannish, resentful neighbors is challenging, even exasperating. Hillbillies pride themselves on distinguishing the deserving poor from the lazy moochers, but Vance points out that it’s a fuzzy line. His grandmother would lash out at the government for doing too much, then for doing too little. She’d ask why society could afford aircraft carriers but not enough drug-rehab centers. She’d complain that the rich weren’t paying their fair share. But she and J.D. would be just as angry at people who paid for T-bone steaks with food stamps and hated the idea of the government using Section 8 housing vouchers so that poor people could move in next door — poor people “like us,” Vance says. She’d say people wouldn’t have so many problems if they were forced to work for their benefit checks.
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Supporters of Republican President candidate Donald Trump cheer during an address to supporters.Photo: Getty Images

“I initially assumed that Mamaw was an unreformed simpleton,” says Vance, “and that as soon as she opened her mouth about policy or politics, I might as well close my own ears. Yet I quickly realized that in Mamaw’s contradictions lay great wisdom.”
Calling it wisdom seems like a stretch, but there does seem to be some continuity to the howl of desperation that echoes so chillingly through Vance’s book.

Manufacturing shed 5 million jobs after 2000, giving way to welfare, drugs and despondency. The number of Americans receiving welfare of one kind or another exploded from 42 million (or 18.8 percent of Americans) in 1983 to 109 million (or 35 percent) in 2012. As America added 83 million citizens, then, it added 67 million welfare recipients — during a period of massive wealth creation. (Per-capita income rose from about $30,000 in 1983 to over $52,000 in 2012.)

Hillbillies pride themselves on distinguishing the deserving poor from the lazy moochers, but Vance points out that it’s a fuzzy line.
The factory closings on the one hand and the welfare checks on the other created lots of idle people. And what do they do with all that spare time? Drugs. Government checks are easily laundered (In Appalachia a favorite trick is to buy cases of soda with food stamps and re-sell them for cash).

Some Americans may unreservedly cheer the explosion in government largesse — aren’t we helping people more than ever before, and also doesn’t it create lots of solid middle-class jobs for administrators in the federal bureaucracy?

But Appalachians evidently have mixed feelings about it, sensing their growing dependency. They do want to turn back the clock, but not because they’re racist or afraid of modernity. They want to go back to having good-paying jobs. They want to go back to being proud of themselves and the things they produced. For years, they’ve essentially been told to sign up for welfare and shut up.

Vance said he noticed as a child that his peers seemed to fall into two groups: “My grandparents embodied one type: old-fashioned, quietly faithful, self-reliant, hardworking. My mother and, increasingly, the entire neighborhood embodied another: consumerist, isolated, angry, distrustful.”


What might the government do differently? Vance notes that hillbillies love to complain, a la Trump, that the system is holding them back. “Never be like those f—ing losers who think the deck is stacked against them,” Mamaw used to tell her grandson.

And yet hillbillies create so many varieties of misery for themselves. Vance recalls that in high school a neighbor ran a bath, took some painkillers and passed out. When she awoke the bath had overflowed and ruined the top floor of her house. “This is the reality of our community,” Vance writes, “It’s about a naked druggie destroying what little of value exists in her life. It’s about children who lose their toys and clothes to a mother’s addiction.”

The anger in hillbilly country is understandable. Vance grew up thinking it was perfectly normal for couples to have screaming matches that frequently turned violent. Neighbors would slide open the window to listen when the folks next door started going at it.

Trump’s attacks on the media and political correctness make Vance’s people stand up and cheer. From the Democrats, they draw the same sense of condescension that struck Vance when, at Yale, another student said she couldn’t believe he was in the Marines because he was a nice guy.

In hillbilly country, a code of honor runs so deep that if you casually call a man a son of a bitch, he’ll beat you senseless for the implied insult to his mother. But then you wouldn’t call the police because you figured you deserved to get a licking. Trump’s me-against-everybody combativeness, his refusal to back down, his vows to disrupt Washington deal-making are giving the hillbilly class a feeling they haven’t had in decades: that they’ve got a friend at the top.



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This is an awesome read.

Before I begin, I want to address these terms. It's hilarious when white people complain about the N word, yet willfully refer to southern and poor whites as rednecks, hillbillies, and white trash.

Just remember, blacks didn't come up with those terms; white people did.

Anyway, man I feel this hardcore. Growing up poor, I understand their frustration. The problem is that while I get they want to go back to the days of good paying labor jobs.... Those days are few and far between. Industries rise and fall. Technology could be the beginning of an industry, or the death of one.

It's why auto manufacturers use more aluminum than steel nowadays, for example (there's a host of reasons why they made the switch, I'm just naming one example, that's all)

Their culture isn't that much different from the inner city; nobody calls the cops over a fight. You fought and kept your freaking mouth shut. Vers, you of all people should understand where I'm coming from with that. Poor whites in the sticks were just like us: no snitching.

I get why they like trump, because his mannerism correlates with theirs.

But his mannerisms isn't gonna turn back the clock of economic policies. Poor whites need to understand that.

It's funny because people on this very board has said that government doesn't create jobs and industries, corporations do.

Well I'm looking at trump the business man and going, "well, he isn't gonna save you guys".

Trump has slammed Apple because of their business practices, yet trump seems to be immune from the same criticism? Doesn't he do the same thing Apple does by having his products made overseas?

Isn't that the type of business practices that helped along the death of manufacturing jobs in America? Yet the same guy who benefits from it is all of a sudden gonna go against it?

I don't think so.


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Good post.

--I hate the term "white trash" and that is why I didn't use it in the title. Heck, I think that term is a HUGE insult to black people. It's like there are some whites who are trash, but all blacks are trash. It's such a racist term. Always made me sick!!!

--I also get always thought that "let's take this outside" was preferable than to calling the cops. Keep the cops away at all costs. LOL ----The world has changed so much, though. It's tough trying to tell your kids how to handle adversity.

--I also feel really bad for all the people who lost their manufacturing jobs. My dad worked in a mill. Many of my relatives did. Most of my friends ended up at either Timken or Republic Steel. And it's not just the rural areas that were effected. I lived in Detroit for 2 years.......and man......that entire area was devastated. You wanna see poverty......go to Flint, MI.

--I think the key for the rural poor and the inner city dwellers is to focus on education, just like J.D. Vance did. He probably didn't have money for college, but went to the Marines, then Ohio State, and then to some Ivy league school. Amazing. But, if we can teach our youngsters to value education, they might get scholarships. It's the safe way out of those areas.

--I think people who make fun of the so-called "white trash" or "hillbillies," or "red necks" while never daring to publicly do the same to blacks are phony and I wouldn't trust them at all if I were you. They are still filled w/hate and bias.

--I agree w/you that Trump won't help those people. I get why they think he will, but as Bruce Springsteen alluded to long ago in his song called "My Hometown:" The foreman says these jobs are going and they aren't coming back... Makes me sick. None of these guys wanna talk about the national debt and how our jobs have dried up. They wanna talk about building walls, getting rid of Muslims, raising taxes, and being proud. Pfffftttttt... Meanwhile, people in our inner cities and rural areas are not only floundering, but also harming themselves w/booze, drugs, and poor health choices. You take away a man's hope.....and you've taken his soul.

--Sometimes I think that the powers that be are doing everything they can to escalate the divide between the races and the gap between the rich and the poor. They wanna keep us fighting. Destroying each other and ourselves at the same time.

I think we gotta stop fighting each other, man. I think we gotta come together. It's a matter of survival.

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Wow.

The entire time I was reading this article, I was thinking to myself: "Man... change the zip code, create the same environment, and watch the same social behavior unfold."

Poverty.
Human Nature.

If political rhetoric from ANY candidate should have resonated within this community, it probably should have been Sanders'. He was pro-little guy, against Big Biz exporting jobs overseas, and in favor of rebuilding America with reclaimed tax money that Alcoa, GM etc were sheltering offshore. Dude wore cheap, ill-fitting suits, came from humble beginnings, and has spent a lifetime championing the downtrodden.

Why some silver spoon loudmouth tycoon from NYC would be their go-to guy is just one of the unsolved mysteries of this election cycle.

Pelosi may represent one of the problems in DC, but she was right about one thing: people continually vote against their own interests. And that phenomenon seems to persist across the country- regardless of zip code.


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Knowing and having known many of these backwoods people my entire life I can tell Pelosi and others why they vote the way they do, they find a handout to be offensive. They pay and trade, barter and make what they need. I have always found them to be a very proud group of Americans.

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Quote:
If political rhetoric from ANY candidate should have resonated within this community, it probably should have been Sanders'...

...Why some silver spoon loudmouth tycoon from NYC would be their go-to guy is just one of the unsolved mysteries of this election cycle.


I agree, but think about it. These people are uneducated, bitter, and poor. They come from families that did okay in a different era regarding tolerance, acceptance, and a host of other things.

Trump's tough talk about "making things right again" resonates w/them.

The article brought up how they are conflicted. They blame the government for this and pray to them about that. Their lack of education makes their success or lack of success reliant on others.

I know some of you probably get sick of me always talking about education and think I do so just because I was a teacher, but why do you think I became a teacher?

Man, when we know that a white man would be jailed and a black man publicly whipped if the white man tried to teach the black man to read during Reconstruction.............how can you NOT embrace the power of education.

I still believe that many of those who hold true power wants to keep the masses dumb. It's far easier to control the ignorant than the knowledgeable. And I also believe that they are really trying to increase the divide between the races and the economic classes in this country.

Do y'all remember the article Swish posted about the Nixon administration purposely targeted blacks and hippies? Does anyone really believe that was an isolated incident?

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Well, he does love the uneducated.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Damn good article. Thanks for sharing.

Swish and I, while at the Indians game the other day, agreed that Sanders could've stole this whole darn thing if he would've connected better with people other than college educated whites; such a shame that didn't happen.

I still feel like xenophobia drives a HUGE reason why someone like Trump comes to prominence.

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Well, he does love the uneducated.

I really dislike when people use the "uneducated" term as to why a person chooses to vote for someone. It is thrown around by both sides if you don't agree with them you are presumably uneducated. It is absurd. I'm fairly well educated I like to think and will likely vote for Trump unless Johnson can start gaining more traction. People vote for a particular candidate based on beliefs - I usually lean towards the Republican candidate as I am fiscally conservative and it is the number one reason I will vote for someone. Anyone that wants to raise taxes more obscenely than they already are is off of my list instantly - don't care what else they are running on. I'm sure I'll be called shallow and out for myself because of that, but oh well. All the other stuff I could really care less about. If that makes me uneducated, I really don't care what others think so long as it isn't my clients smile


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I was just re-posting something Trump actually said. lol


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted By: RocketOptimist
Damn good article. Thanks for sharing.

Swish and I, while at the Indians game the other day, agreed that Sanders could've stole this whole darn thing if he would've connected better with people other than college educated whites; such a shame that didn't happen.

I still feel like xenophobia drives a HUGE reason why someone like Trump comes to prominence.

I say thank goodness that people realized his platform was a pipe dream and off the charts crazy. Raising taxes to the level he wanted to would have made it even worse for the middle class than it is now IMO. It is a great thing that it didn't happen. I cringe when I think Sanders even had a shot at the presidency. Little different viewpoint than you I suppose wink


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I was just re-posting something Trump actually said. lol

Lol, figured you were too good for that Pit - it surprised me that you'd post something like that. My sarcasm meter must be down wink

Trump really turned me off going after the mom of the Muslim soldier that spoke at the DNC. Uncalled for. I'm really hoping Johnson can get some momentum going - I've talked with many people, both liberal and conservative, that can agree on a lot of his platform.


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How do you bring back low skill labor jobs that are slowly being replaced by automation? You can't.

You have to invest in developing a higher skilled workforce. Teach people how to operate these machines. That means sending kids to trade school or college. It's going to be a rough period as technology advances. I feel we're almost at a bottleneck crossroads.

I feel awful for the people losing their jobs, because it's not fair to them. However, I feel the days of shovel jobs are going to be gone.

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Quote:
You have to invest in developing a higher skilled workforce. Teach people how to operate these machines. That means sending kids to trade school or college


I think this is a good point.

Earlier, when I mentioned education, I wasn't just talking about engineering, business, finance, medical, etc degrees. As you mentioned, people have to have certain skills to operate machines and other tech devices.

Man, poverty is a b......! As Swish and Clem pointed out, it's the one common thread that runs through the tapestry of life. It's so hard to escape the throes of despair when you are actually in it. Constant rejection and failure is hard to deal with and people turn to things that make matters worse.

We gotta save them when they are young! Making excuses [even when they are legit,] entitlement, hand-outs, and assigning blame only makes matters worse. I firmly believe that we have to raise the hope and will of our youngsters. Motivate them to overcome the odds. Empower them by educating them and fueling their desire to succeed. People may scoff, but I have seen it in action. It freaking works!!!

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Exactly. Bringing back those jobs are as much as a pipe dream as Clinton promising to overturn Citzens United.

We have how many jobs available?

Have y'all ever looked at monster.com just for the hell of it? All of jobs require certifications, programming experience, sales experiences, and degrees, some even masters.

Just down the list here in cleveland, they are begging for people with programming experience. Banks need accountants and people with real sales experience.

Don't get me started on the thousands of nurses and doctors they need.

That's the future. Hell, that's the present. Today's labor force needs more people with intelligence, and less people with hard labor skills.

As insensitive as that is, that's just the reality.

As Vers said, let's focus on educating our population to support these jobs, not hard labor dead end ones.

Last edited by Swish; 07/31/16 02:59 PM.

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This really makes me mad. I'm a hillbilly, my family are hillbillies and we're not stupid or white trash! We are hill folk, originating from WV, KY and Southern OH... that's all. We have backwoods experience but we are also educated and hardworking. Most hillbillies are salt of the earth types.

This myth that is always perpetuated that hillbillies are lazy drunks and dirty toothless shoeless inbreds is preposterous! I hate it when we are portrayed this way.

Now as for the general gist of this article that the poor uneducated white population of the rust belt and appalachia are flocking to Trump, that I agree with. It's my personal hell that I live in southern Ohio surrounded by them. In all fairness, their politics is about all that I dislike about them though.

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I feel your frustration. That's the same feeling that many blacks have. Stereotyping and classifying groups is dangerous.

I will say that drug and alcohol abuse and crime is often higher in impoverished areas than in other areas.

Again, poverty is a real B..........!

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Swish you summed up what I've been trying to say. The days of not wanting to learn and just doing things by hand are coming to an end in America. It might not be now, but I bet it will in less than 20 years.

It's why I never understood why these same people cheer for machines replacing minimum wage jobs. Those same machines will be replacing YOU. Sure, your burger is cheap now, but pretty soon you're not going to have any means of paying for that cheap burger.

Society wants production and efficiency. Not just hard work.

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Quote:
Today's labor force needs more people with intelligence, and less people with hard labor skills.


...and that's just the thing: almost every blue-collar Dude I worked with during my refinery days was intelligent, despite the hands-on nature of their jobs. Had some good conversation with guys like Frank Poe, Curley Pitchford and Zaryl Stamford.

These guys had high school diplomas only... and were some of the smartest deep thinkers I've met in 40 years. I have no doubt that guys like these could nail down ANY job, given the proper education and training. We're failing guys like these with every day we waste not addressing 21st c. education reform.

It's the key to absolutely everything, going forward.


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I agree Clem, being a deep thinker needs to be transferred over to a certain type of skill.

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Quote:
It's my personal hell that I live in southern Ohio surrounded by them. In all fairness, their politics is about all that I dislike about them though.


Is there some way that YOU can get through to them? In my experience, folks are more open to those who truly understand them. You could potentially play the same role as Lurker did last week, when he prayed with a disillusioned BLM person in the lobby of hotel.

Just asking,
clem


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I believe you.

Which is why months ago I said the best solution would to have a job training program, paid by the government, targeting SPECIFICALLY those who were coal miners, construction workers, steel workers, etc, that way when those industries die/have died, they are first priority to go into the program and work in the renewable energy source jobs.

That would significantly reduce the number of unemployed people. Hell, maybe no job loss period if done correctly.

It ain't perfect, but it would be a good start

Last edited by Swish; 07/31/16 03:37 PM.

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Might have to include farmers in that discussion too. Indoor vertical farms are becoming popular and they just require nerds in lab coats watching them.

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Good point.

I know farmers, like pretty much anybody else, would prefer they have their own handle those kind of things.


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Originally Posted By: Clemdawg
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Today's labor force needs more people with intelligence, and less people with hard labor skills.


...and that's just the thing: almost every blue-collar Dude I worked with during my refinery days was intelligent, despite the hands-on nature of their jobs. Had some good conversation with guys like Frank Poe, Curley Pitchford and Zaryl Stamford.

These guys had high school diplomas only... and were some of the smartest deep thinkers I've met in 40 years. I have no doubt that guys like these could nail down ANY job, given the proper education and training. We're failing guys like these with every day we waste not addressing 21st c. education reform.

It's the key to absolutely everything, going forward.


I pretty much agree with what you and others are saying about education. It's a good thing.

But, know what? The jobs won't be there.

Hear me out. It used to be even a h.s. drop out could get a job that would support a family. A h.s. degree was just icing on the cake.

Then, it became "you need a 4 year college degree" to get a job that would support a family. Then, you needed both parents working to support a family. Now, many jobs want an MBA shortly after you start.

And through all of that, people have had good jobs, and people have been unemployed.

As we become a more and more "tech" driven country, jobs are necessarily lost - the "working" man/woman jobs.

Heck, have everyone earn an MBA - the situation won't change in my opinion. There aren't enough "tech" jobs (and by "tech" I mean programming jobs, office jobs, etc) If everyone has a degree, you'll see degreed people working the cash register at your local gas station.

Heck, there isn't a thing in the world wrong with being a plumber, or a mechanic. On vacation this last week - my bro in law (home schooled, mind you. Got his SSN when he married my sister) - dude is a master mechanic. Had he charged others for his time fixing their boats and jet ski's, he'd have made a grand, easy.

Work ethic goes a long way. You can't start at the top, even with an MBA.

Education is great, don't get me wrong - but I know too many people that are "uneducated" that make a lot of money. Work ethic, getting into a job you enjoy, and perfecting your craft over years.

Some people have it to make it big, education or not. Some people don't have it.

Would you ever guess that a guy that quit school after 8th grade would go on to farm, dig ditches, dig graves..and then become the owner of a 2 man operation making scaffold. A company that he grew. That employed, at his death, almost 250 people. Largest scaffold and lift company in the U.S. at the time. A company that his son took over after his death, then sold to a company from Germany? Netted him a cool $80-100 million.

Would you ever guess that a guy that dropped out of 8th grade would start a wood working company, then grow that into the largest RTA (ready to assemble) furniture company in the U.S.?



Education is great, don't get me wrong. But education doesn't guarantee anything.

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Arch, not sure if you're referring to me, but I also said trade schools. I don't consider learning a trade the same as a "shovel job." Your story is nice and everything, but had it had nothing to do with what I was discussing. If you weren't referring to what I said, my apologies.

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I just hope the Educated Elite keep running their mouths !

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Originally Posted By: candyman92
Arch, not sure if you're referring to me, but I also said trade schools. I don't consider learning a trade the same as a "shovel job." Your story is nice and everything, but had it had nothing to do with what I was discussing. If you weren't referring to what I said, my apologies.


In a broad sense, I was referring to everyone.

Education is great, again.

But, if everyone were "educated", nothing would change. Some people have drive and work ethic. Some have an entitlement attitude. Most "want", but it just doesn't work that way.

And yes, trade schools are great. So is hiring into a company/business and just flat out learning.

Regardless, there will always be those that can and do, and those that could but won't. And in between are those that want to, and do do (doo doo? Did I say that?) and those that could, but won't.

It's called life.

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There's a difference between being educated and having a diploma. Having a diploma doesn't mean squat if you have no idea what you were supposed to learn. That's their problem. Educated people have a vast knowledge and strong fundamental understanding of their area. They're able to "work smart, not hard."

I want somebody who does a job the best and most efficient way possible. I don't hand out participation trophies for trying hard.

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There's also 9 different types of intelligence, but that would open up another form of discussion that'd probably rub people the wrong way.

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Originally Posted By: candyman92
There's a difference between being educated and having a diploma. Having a diploma doesn't mean squat if you have no idea what you were supposed to learn. That's their problem. Educated people have a vast knowledge and strong fundamental understanding of their area. They're able to "work smart, not hard."

I want somebody who does a job the best and most efficient way possible. I don't hand out participation trophies for trying hard.


Agreed. 100%. But that's what I'm getting at. Education is great for those that use it. If everyone had a college degree, we'd be in the same spot we are now.

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Doooooooo it

Besides won't be rubbing me wrong. I already know there's no way in hell in smart enough to be a rocket scientist or even a damn doctor.

Last edited by Swish; 07/31/16 05:34 PM.

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Trying to achieve the highest possible is how we increase the standards of living for everyone around the globe.

Just because some of even most won't make it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to bring everybody with us.

I rather try than go "eh, we're gonna be in the same spot".


“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

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And that's exactly what I wasn't saying.

All I'm saying is, when the bar is raised/gets raised, the ratio of success will stay the same. I don't like it, but it is what it is.

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Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
Originally Posted By: candyman92
There's a difference between being educated and having a diploma. Having a diploma doesn't mean squat if you have no idea what you were supposed to learn. That's their problem. Educated people have a vast knowledge and strong fundamental understanding of their area. They're able to "work smart, not hard."

I want somebody who does a job the best and most efficient way possible. I don't hand out participation trophies for trying hard.


Agreed. 100%. But that's what I'm getting at. Education is great for those that use it. If everyone had a college degree, we'd be in the same spot we are now.


I think where we only disagree is in leadership styles. You're a better human being than me tongue

I'm not saying I don't value or appreciate hard work, I'm just more cut throat and value results above the effort put into something.

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I'm in the trades, it's very hard to find good people who are trustworthy because I work in peoples homes.

I cannot have someone in there that I think might try making off with something. Years ago another couple I knew that were painters had a helper, guy made off with the clients gaming console.
They paid to replace it out of their own pocket just to keep in good with the homeowner so they would keep referring them.

The other problem I have is finding good people you can afford. I often tell people that if you find a guy who cares about the job as much as you do he's got enough of his own work so he's too busy to work for you.


WE DON'T NEED A QB BEFORE WE GET A LINE THAT CAN PROTECT HIM
my two cents...
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Maybe the ratio won't stay the same, but the standard of living will.

At least in this country. I can't speak for all the other unfortunate slums people live in around different countries.

Besides, you never know.

Besides, we all have different standards on what "success" is.


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I believe in multiple intelligence theory. Various education research shows support for it. Google the concept, and you'll be amazed. It even furthers the idea that current assessments fails our kids, and the assessments fail due to only measuring one learning modality. I'm sure Vers, CJ, Bard, and other current/former teachers would echo me on that. Heck, even Arch with his volunteer work in schools probably even sees this.

Basically, we're all born with innate talents.From conception, humans get predisposed to certain fields of expertise, but it's sorta elastic; you can enhance a "lesser" intelligence, but we're born predisposed to one area. This is where we need to adapt to everyone to best reach them. It's a concept called differentiation.

Educated can mean high school, bachelors, masters, and potentially a dropout in some cases.

Regardless, we need to value learning styles of all students, and an opportunity of education for all in our country.

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Y'all talking about this?

https://www.examtime.com/blog/types-of-intelligence/

Or something else?


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Agreed.

I get into homes, and businesses. I've always had the thought that "there might be camera's watching me". Because of my ethics, and that thought, I NEVER do anything unrelated to my job. EVER.

I've even told a customer or 100 - "I don't care if you have $1 million sitting on your countertop, I'm not touching it. It wouldn't be enough to convince my wife to leave the country, anyway. Plus, if I were to touch it, or worse, take it, it would ruin my reputation, and, consequently, my job. And then I'm screwed."

My reputation and trust worthiness is of utmost importance to me, and my job. It's even above the quality of work I do to an extent.

Here's just a micro of my job. Worked for some people about 40 miles from here. They were/are friends with my parents. That's how I got the job.

2 weeks ago I got a phone call from those people's daughter. Hey, can you make it to Maumee? My parents were impressed with your work.

I was gone all this past week. But I got 2 phone calls from this person's neighbors. "This is X, my neighbor just had you do some work for them, and they were pleased with the work and the price. Can you work for us?"

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