DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2016 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 13 Buccaneers 30 Post Game Thoughts

Yeah, I recall Nassib being in the middle, it doesnt work well. Replace Kruger with Ogbah and Ogbah with Nassib? I think that front could have something. I hope we see it more.

I would go:

Nassib--Cooper--Shelton--Ogbah

but would play 1 gap tell them to get up field not 2-gap/read

You think Griffin "failed" last night? Interesting...I didn't see him "revert" or get happy feet, the times he scrambled it made good sense to get out of there.

I don't agree with some of his decisions...but net-net thought he played well.

Paztor is bad, he's a PS guy starting, France should be in the first cuts, Drango actually looked pretty serviceable at LT for the most part, But the tackles are a mess

Game day thoughts.

RG3 is wasted time. I fully endorse the thought process that brought him here but he is not and NFL QB and i fully understand why Washington let him go and why they ran the offense they did with him there.

While his athletic abilities are off the charts he lacks the mental skills needed to be a successful NFL QB.

He can't read a defense possesses zero in his ability to anticipate receivers popping open. Have you seen him make so much as one timing pass, didn't think so and you won't.

I wished the Browns would just play McCown at least he looks the part of a pro watching RG3 play is like watching a sand lot game. Oh he can throw the bomb but he can't make another throw and he locks on his primary and doesn't even try to go thru his progressions. That's the bad news part of my thoughts.

I thought the defense was much improved over last week but they have little help on the the front end or the back end one might say they compliment each other perfectly. They will get better with playing time together as a group but their ceiling is pretty low.

My thoughts are that will get better but it won't be this year and not with RG3. The draft can't come soon enough IMO. Still it will be fun to watch this offense when RG3 connects on the bomb a couple of times each week, but we are in for yet another season of ass whippings.

What's the point of playing Mccown?

Lol, all this from 1 preseason game or simply rehashing old narratives?

Not embarrassing ourselves?

Playing the best guy at the job?

Actually trying to pretend to be an NFL team?

It won't matter - RGknee will be injured soon enough and McCown will be in there. Of course he won't last behind this OL either, so bring on Cody Kessler. We may not win a game so whatever.

Your free to disagree all you want. Nothing wrong with that. Yet in my opinion any O-line who can't even block for a mere 2 seconds is flat out terrible and they had many plays where they couldn't even block for 2 seconds.

Kruger is on his last legs so I imagine he is holding back in preseason to save his effort for the regular season. We will know for sure in a few weeks for sure though =)

What does Mccown do better? He's reaching Kelly Holcomb mythical status on this board. Even if he was better, so what? We might win 1 more game....?

That may very well be but if that is the old narrative on RG3 then it is spot on and to be honest its also quite obvious. I find it disturbing that after watching him actually play anyone with a bit of football knowledge wouldn't come to the very same conclusion.

I truly wished it weren't so myself, but I have watched him play and thats what I saw and I can't deny it no matter how much I wished it weren't so it is....

The point in playing McCown is to play the player that gives us the best chance to win in the short term and when compared to RG3 he is a pro while sadly RG3 is sandlot at best.

I tell you all what compare RG3 to Winston who was also under duress and look at the differences in results. RG3 after 4 years in the league should be equal to or way ahead of Winston, but he isn't and likely won't be.

Hue is going to have to dummy down this offense in a major way to give us even a sliver of a chance with RG3 at the helm.

We might as well go ahead and start talking about the draft now cause will have the top pick in the draft next year of that I have no doubts.

jc-

RG3 really held the ball way too long in this last game. You can't see what's going on downfield but I think he was really struggling with where to go with the ball a few times. This is consistent with the thought that he just doesn't have it post snap.

McCown is complete trash though. He's a proven loser. There is zero point in playing McCown. I am still trying to reconcile the love this guy gets with the actual play on the field. I get it. He's a hell of a nice guy and a class act. He's not a good QB. He's not a winning QB.

None of that really matters though. Both RG3 and McCown are going to get hurt (McCown also holds the ball way too long) and we will see Kessler. Kessler will either cement his position as the next Mccoy or he might surprise. I'm putting the odds at 90/10.

Rg3 is better than McCown. Y'all need to stop this nonsense of falling in love with the backup. How many times has the love of the backup qb bit us in the ass?

Yet y'all never learn.

Our offense showed a ton of potential. But we had two drives killed because of offensive line holding calls. That will be our biggest problem this year: whether or not our line can hold up more than 2 seconds.

We have waaaaayyy bigger problem on the defensive side of the ball. We have Haden, Kruger, and......umm......

I just feel it was more about RG3 holding the ball too long at times than it was a poor performance from the OL.

Mac, bro, that still doesn't make any sense.

Didn't McCown get injured behind the '"better" offensive line last year? Seems like a lot of posters forgot that bit of information. Better o line, McCown ALSO held the ball too long last year, and was still getting murdered back there.

So that idea still doesn't make sense.

RG3 has a very small, but possible chance of being the guy in cleveland.

McCown does not.

Well, McCown's first injury - the concussion, wasn't behind the O line. It came from a very good scramble, and what then turned into a bad decision to dive for a touchdown.

He missed several weeks from that.

And the other injuries?

Edit: see what I mean? Some are worried about RG3 getting injured as if McCown doesn't have the same problem.

And I'm not saying McCown should or shouldn't start.

MY point is i don't think he should be traded.

That's all I'm saying.

I didn't say anything about him being traded though.

I think the o-line will look better come the regular season given time to settle in. We've been mixing and matching most of the off season. Greco was injured. Our RT could struggle some but that's what help is for. Drango has looked better than his draft position, and our higher pick was dealing with injury. Hopefully, they'll both progress and maybe supplant Pasztor.

I hope the threat of the read option will slow down opposing teams' pass rush some. That's one thing that intrigues me about Watson. He can be a hammer inside and Robert can fly outside if they over commit. As long as RG3 keeps sliding, I don't think his injury risk increases much at all. He's worse at avoiding pressure in the pocket than in space. I don't think anyone was worried about us running read-option in the preseason. They seemed to have their ears pinned back on Friday without much worry about containment.

McCown is a good guy, mentor, and can run an offense. However, he's old, reckless with his body, holds the ball too long, and has mediocre accuracy. He'll probably make a good coach some day if he decides to go that direction. If Dallas calls, I'd listen. The coaches we have can coach our QBs.

The defense needs work. I don't think we'll be as bad as we looked against TB, but we'll need to address this side of the ball in the draft. I hope RG3 and Kessler show promise so we don't have to use a high pick on a QB. Next year's class looks to be strong on D.

Responded to Caldawg by accident.

Scarlett sends my apologies...

What he does better is:

Can read NFL defenses
Goes through progressions
Makes quicker decisions
Throws with some touch
Can complete short and intermediate routes
Has better pocket presence/movement within the pocket

What RG3 does better is:

Throws the long ball
Runs faster

But, to your point McCown's also not "the answer" either - nor will he hold up over an entire season any better than RGknee. And even if he did, it's the difference between being a 0/1 win team and a 1/2 win team so it doesn't REALLY matter beyond sending a message to the team that you'll play the best guy at the position regardless of age/name/contract/draft status. At this point just put in Kessler, put a paper bag over your head and start paying attention again around May for the draft. That's what I'll be doing.

When all you have is hammer everything looks like a nail.

I would think people with football knowledge don't leap to definitive conclusions about players, lol, after some brief preseason outings.

I think when people, I'm not sure if you fall into this group or not, but when people with limited understanding of the true interconnected nature of football speak about football they focus on the QB because often the sum work of the other 10 players is expressed through the play of the QB. Joe Theisman always says 'QB is the most dependent player on the football field'.

Imho when the only thing people seek to assess is the QB then they see things inaccurately.

Previously you spoke in obvious gross exaggerations. For example you said Griffin can't read defenses. Obviously this is false. Even in this brief stint in these 3 pre-season games including the last game those who understand what they are looking at can see Griffin going through his progressions. Even in Washington you can see Griffin going through progressions.

Now, disagreeing that he 'can't' read defenses is not the same thing as saying he is proficient either. Griffin is still learning and improving in those aspects i.e pre/post snaps progression, throwing with anticipation and manipulating the pocket (which you didn't mention).

Anyhow enough of my thoughts here are the passes from Griffin's 'failure' which has apparently caused you to want to see him benched for McCown



https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-cle-tb-grades-winston-evans-hargreaves-all-star-in-bucs-win/



Breakdown of the 5 sacks:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2016/08/was_robert_griffin_iii_really.html#2

I haven't covered all the sacks myself but as I previously stated on the 1st "sack" even though the Pastor was beaten Griffin has escaped the pocket and could have thrown it away. So even though the RT got beat I still put that sack on Griffin.

The second "sack" Griffin again has to escape pressure but scrambled the wrong direction while escaping, this is more of a failed scramble then a sack.

I put 2 sacks on Griffin the rest was on the OL.

I just rewatched the game.
The Browns have the worst front 7 in the league.
Shelton is a bust.plain and simple.
He gets pushed back snap after snap with ease.
I don't need to see 2 full seasons of him to see that
He was a momumental failure by the Farmer regime
The whole dline is porous. No interior push.
The Lbers are are slow to get downhill and way too much
Reaching and no base what so ever.
Teams will run at will on this defense
And backers bite so hard on play action it's ridiculous

So we should be pretty fun to watch this year

Agreed. Once they settle on a starting 5 they can gameplan internally on which OL need help where the double teams need to happen based on personnel etc.

In the last game it was clear that the staff was searching for answers on the OL. Joe Thomas only played 18 snaps. Along with many other positions it seems like they were trying to find a back-up LT and with Pastor's spotty play the RT spot might be open. IIRC Drango played well at RT during camp and based on Coleman's scouting reports he should be a good fight for RT in this scheme. I would be surprised if they battle it out in the final preseason game. Heck, Mike Shanahan rotated the RG spot from series to series for the 1st regular season game to figure out his starter.

In the regular season read-option/zone-read could be huge benefit to the running game and mixed with play-action could help slow down the pass rush.

Injuries are part of the NFL, imho its not something you worry about. Griffin's injury risk is vastly overstated. Outside of Shanahan playing him while obviously seriously injured he's only had 1 injury ankle. Luck has missed games, Dalton missed games, Bradford missed a ton of games the list goes on in the NFL the injury rate reaches 100%.

Griffin is weird in that despite being a dynamic athlete he doesn't have that Romo/Russell/Rodger's type of nimble escapability. One of Griffin's flaws in my eyes is he's heavy legged in the pocket and doesn't avoid/escape sacks like his athleticism would suggest. Therefore Griffin really needs to master getting the ball out quick in order to help the OL because he can't help them by escaping from sacks like a Russell Wilson.

Tampa front 4 are very talented and they played into the 3rd quarter against our 2nd/3rd team guys. They blitzed a little but mainly what I saw was better talent and better scheme. Horton had our DL playing a mix of 1-gap upfield penetration and what looked like read-react 2-gap. Tampa was slanting and stunting DTs stunting DE-DTs and our OL was getting confused and beat.

I was surprised by the conversation post Tampa; I thought it would be all about the defense but people love to talk QB, especially Griffin.

But, I really question what Horton appears to be doing with both the scheme and the personnel. I think the defense is gonna struggle because there doesn't appear to be 1 true pass 12 sack type pass rusher on the roster.
There isn't that 1 fastball turn the corner get the OL back on their heels dude. I thought Ogbah could develop into that type of player but he's being used in a quasi OLB-all purpose DE role which imo is a waste. The defense imo should be featured to get him upfield with reckless abandon and the defense around him should be schemed to worry about the run/coverage. When I see Ogbah I see an 'edge rusher' ala Tamba Hali who almost never drops into coverage. I really like Nassib too but when I see him at DT or 5-tech I get a little sick.

If this defense is gonna avoid being near league worst Horton is gonna have to tweak his scheme to get those 2 guys premiere pass rush looks.

We saw what this defense looks like without pressure and it wasn't pretty.

I have no idea why the CBs are playing soft/off coverage.
There is a lot about the this defense I don't get right now.

The personnel isn't great, and the depth is very thin but right now I don't think Horton has found the right mix yet.



[/quote]

I agree that heading into the season the front 7 deserves to be rated at/near league worst. The interior push is certainly lacking.

Shelton. I did not see him get pushed back. Now, I didn't see him getting upfield consistently either though. I'm not sure if this is by scheme or what but often he seems to be looking/waiting to engage 2 OL rather then firing off the ball getting upfield (which he does sometimes) it makes me think its a scheme question mixed with a player a question.

Cooper get's a really good get off sometimes and playing like a true 3-tech but then other snaps he's (and other DL) also seems to be sitting back reading/waiting.

I've been seeing the opposite. I've been impressed by Kirksey's eagerness to attack and get downhill both to make tackles and to stack and shed blocks.

Davis is eager too but to my eye lacks the speed/range to get to the edge.

I thought the starting unit played the run well against Tampa, almost to a fault. Maybe emphasis on the run is why the DL weren't just getting upfield and why the ILBs were getting beat on play-action which is by product of ILBs playing aggressively in their run fits downhill.

Good convo though, the defense is gonna be a big question and with the limited personnel at best I still think they'll be bottom 1/3 unless Horton can really scheme it up and the offense can help them out with time of possession.

I think judging by the personal this defense is better suited to be a 4-3 scheme.
The Browns just don't have enough big boys to pull off
A 3-4 look. They are too undersized. They can't command
Double teams at the point of attack.
Every Browns down lineman can be blocked one on one.
The backers just look average
No explosion. No anger. They don't have that temperament
That says I'm gonna tear your head off etc etc
I just don't see that catalyst on defense that can have this defense playing like a rabid pack of hyenas.

Who would you play in the 43?

I have a guess at the DL but what about SAM backer?

Schobert--Davis--Kirksey

Obgbah--Cooper--Shelton--Nassib

Personally I'm not too hung up on the 43 vs 34 as I am about 1-gap vs 2-gap. I think this defense needs to play fast 1 gap get upfield as opposed to the stout 2-gap read-react. I think if they tried to get upfield they would do a better job of forcing double teams rather then trying to engage 2 blockers (which is what I see them doing)

from what I've seen Cooper, Shelton, Ogbah and Nassib and sometimes Meder can all win 1-on-1s when playing upfield.

We're seeing something different when it comes to the ILBs. I can't speak to their temperament but I have seen these dudes getting downhill.

I would have played Mingo at Sam before we traded him. Now I'd probably play Kruger/Orchard at end and try Ogbah as an attacking Sam.

I definitely think Shelton fits better as a 1 gapper. When he is moving forward, he's hard to stop. When he's reading/waiting, it seems hard for him to get started.

Wish Danny been out there more in nickel. I'd have liked to see Ogbah, Cooper, Shelton, Nassib up front getting after it. Nassib feasted on cleaning up collapsed pockets at Penn State.

I would say our coaches tried Mingo however they could ... for years. Just wasn't going to work

In a 4-3

I don't have much to pick from but here it goes

Ogabu LDE
Hughes DT
Meder DT
Nassib RDE

Cooper coming in on nickel fronts
Shelton on short yardage

Kirksey OLB
Davis MLB
Alexander OLB

I feel like this was the gap approach Horton used the last time he was with us. Its one of the main reasons why Des Bryant was successful in his first year. It allowed him to get after the passer, which is what he did in Oakland. I haven't followed the defense all that intimately through the first three games but maybe Horton's holding back on that until the season starts?

In 2013, it was all about having an "attacking defense". I think I read/heard that term more than Pat Shurmur's "we battled".

Yup, that's my best guess as the best/eventual front 4:
Ogbah--Coop-Shelton-Nassib/Kruger 1-gap penetrating; not sure why we haven't seen it much yet. They will probably start Kruger and give him a chance to produce and gradually work Nassib in rotation.

What do you think the actual starting defense will be?
base:
Poyer & Campbell
Ogbah,Kirksey,Davis, Kruger
Tramon & Haden
Hughes, Shelton, Cooper/Meder

Nickel front: Kruger/Nassib--Shelton--Cooper--Ogbah w/Jamar Taylor in the slot

That's good news. I don't know much about Horton's past schemes. After your post I looked up and found this: http://www.musiccitymiracles.com/2014/1/21/5327854/ray-hortons-hybrid-defense-a-primer
which along w/ your post gives me hope to see a more aggressive defense come week 1.

I'm not sure what they'll do on the back end. Poyer has been pretty invisible so far. I might stick Tramon back there in base, maybe in nickel also with Taylor in his spot and Gaines the nickel. I'd hope having a vet back there would facilitate communication which has seemed to be a problem. I think Gilbert hangs on and sees some time in apparent passing situations.

I'm guessing Orchard starts the season as the starter with Ogbah more of a situational pass rusher.

The rest looks about right.

Which one!

This team could lose 32 straight, and we'll be right back where we are now, A rookie head coach, and rookie everythings, and new GM's and everything else, after these guys fail.

The Browns won 3 games last year, At least one of them, the Titans, they wouldn't have won without Manziel, and Benjamin, Benjamin had 3 td's that day;
they don't have those guys.

Not only that, but in the conversation for 7 most experienced players on defense from last year would be, Tashaun Gipson, Donte Whitner, Desmond Bryant, Karlos Dansby, Barkevious Mingo, and Craig Robertson, none of which are on the team anymore. (Dansby had two defensive td's; who's going to get those this year?

Last year a guy at work found out I liked the Browns, said they were 3-11, he said, 3? who'd they beat?
And he was serious, he didn't think they beat anybody, all year long.
It's to the point, where, even if they do win a game, it's a fluke and it makes no difference on the season anyway.

This team gets no respect. So, hopefully they can get to work a fixing that!