What. A. Cluster. F@#%! SSDY.

I thought the offense was okay.

Special teams was bad.

Defense was....


Holy frickin hell.

Compared to? What? A cluster f@#%? Two good plays. A TD to Gordon. A completed pass to Gordon. And... Oh. Nothing else.

We suck. We are going to be bent over all year.

What pisses me off the most is year after year we let our best players walk. When will our mgt pay these people who deserve to be paid.

It makes no sense to clear house every year. Keep the good, get rid of the bad, that is all I am asking.

One thought: When you have the worse owner in all of pro sports you're screwed!

We need to settle on some starters on D and let them get reps- stat. Whatever we were mixing and matching tonight wasn't working.

Beginning of the season is looking rough. This team needs reps, especially OL and secondary.

Ogbah and Nassib need to develop fast, too. Pass rush was pretty weak tonight. I'll admit Winston was moving well. but we've gotta get better.

It's early to be thinking draft, but we look like we need D more than QB.

Growing pains could suck this season. Hopefully they actually show some growth as the season moves along.

It's not looking like we have to worry about losing Horton to a HC job, whether that's a good thing or not remains to be seen.

Another thought: it doesn't matter who owns the team, who coaches or who the players are because the Browns suck the puss from every boil on every ass in the world.

Here's another idea: fire Horton for impersonating a DC.

Don't worry it's just preseason, it will be much better once the real games start. They are just mixing and matching right now.

Well, at least we'll have lots of things on tape that we can try to correct.

I'm glad that one doesn't count.

Hopefully, the team gets angry rather than fold. Hue's gonna have to earn that paycheck.

I'm not worried because I know they suck as a whole... So it's a given they'll suck when everyone who starts is in there.

in total, it's just sad.

RG3 will have to have a qb rating of 100 each for game even for this
Team to have a fighting chance.
It might score 20 a game but this creme puff d will give up 31.

Where's all the guys that wear the rose colored glasses?

Offensively, I think Hue is holding back on his play calls. I plan on seeing a lot more quick passes on WR & HB screens.

Our O-line will be our Achilles heel on offense. We need guys to be on the same page and execute every single snap. We need them to keep RG3 up right and healthy.

Defensively, I'm really worried about all aspects, starting with the DC.
I just don't get a great feeling for Horton anymore. I don't have confidence in him to call a good game.

Defensive line - needs to get stout against the run, and get to the QB QUICKER!!!

LB's - MLB's are the brightest spot of our defense. Davis is a vet with good experience, and IMO Kirksey looks light years better than what he was last season. OLB... ehhh..

Secondary as a whole ... OUtside of Haden.. who the hell is starting? Ive seen flashes from Campbell and I have a good feeling about Kindred. I think Poyer will be a liability in the backfield, as well as every other corner we have on the roster. I mean good grief. Winston got damn near 300 passing yards in TWO QUARTERS!!!!!!!!

I look at this this way: OH MY GOD! WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?

I was at the game and had to leave at half it was so brutal...what a crappy fan experience there at RJS, their wifi sucks, no cell towers and that stupid cannon is annoying, especially tonight..lol, some Buc fan tried to high five me after they scored, i looked at him and like WTF are you doing, i'm a browns fan...and yes..i left him hanging. But what i saw is years and years of craptastic drafts coming to fruition. I think instead of taking 500 WR this year, they should have spend some of them on line help, both sides...Shelton is a marshmallow with cleats, i had a chance to watch the lines alot, our Dline is the worst we've had since our return...Kruger is stealing money, this line really misses Bryant, we have no safeties to speak of, after the TD to Vjack where he basically carried the defender in like a high schooler playing keep away from his elementary school brother, The CB was jawing quit a bit at the FS, so it sounds like the secondary is a mess.

Offensively outside of RG3 and our WR/TE, have little, I will say the line opens up quite a bit of holes in the run game, Crowell doesn't always hit said holes, but they also are weak at the point of attack and they all get overpowered quite a bit which leads to pressure. Either TB is going to the superbowl or we are really that bad. If this is the dress rehearsal, i think we went to the wrong show

I see our o-line is not that great.

I see one of our top needs is at safety and better LBs.

Good news is that next draft we have the pics to do something about it.

I also imagine we are playing very vanilla expecially since we been practicing against tampa all week and have little left to learn. I would like to see more beign accomplished besides a go right on the right side even if it seems to work great no matter who we throw it to on that side. Gary, Josh, and Tyrelle have all made big catches on the same darn pass.

Does the Browns defense even have a true leader
A catalyst?
A heartbeat?
This defense is worse than the 99 defense

The defense is very young, and Horton runs a fairly complicated defense. He also likes to dump everything on his defense from the word go, and let them catch up as the year goes by. I think that the defense will improve as the year goes by.

The OL is going to cause issues for us on offense. We have some talent on that side of the ball, and developing Pryor is a bonus .... but the OL will be a drag on the offense, especially early on.

I haven't had a chance to watch all of the game yet, but I see no reason to change my prediction of 3-4 wins. This team should be far better at the end of the season than it is at the start of the season, but wins are going to be few and far between this year.

Our OL is what we're used to: AWFUL
Our defense is what we're used to: EVEN WORSE

Coleman looked a little ill prepared
We need to get Duke the ball more
Erving had a few comically bad plays ... so did the RT spot
Our LBs literally can't cover a shadow
half of our secondary is SLOWWWW

The offense looked better when Joe Thomas was in, he only played for a little bit.

The D is horrible, but it's preseason so we should expect it. I'd much rather have this game in preseason than in regular season. I remember years where we dominated preseason and finished bad.

I hope the D is just Horton getting tape on the younger guys because if they play this bad during the season he won't be able to get hired as a waterboy when Jimmy Haslam fires him.

Prior to the game, I thought Gabriel had little to no chance to make the team. He may have kept his job with his performance.

I also think this game was about the next draft. I noticed that a couple of our bubble players and Gilbert got significant looks. I think this could have been as much about letting potential trade partners see them as it was about our staff getting that final decision look at them.

Gabriel was one.

get used to some horrible calls all year, in the Bills Skins game if you touched Cousins there was a flag, you cannot touch the QB at all this year

RG3 will not make it to the Pats game
Gordon is still a freak
DB s are crap
we have the slowest defense around
the O line besides thomas is junk, Thomas will want a trade by week 6

it seemed to me like the coaches wanted the game to make or break Gabriel ... he got his audition to be on the squad

and yes camm ... slowest D I've seen. Our LBs and DBs have no quick twitch

Also, I'm very tired of watching Paul Kruger aka the White Bojangles. Dancing around and never disrupting.

Kruger has been a waste of money ever since he got here.
He only thrived in Baltimore cause Suggs was on the other
Side.
He should be cut but he won't be.

The same move rush and take a real wide circle to the Qb

Of all poor decisions this front office has made, the one guy who should be cut is Kruger. He can't or won't even try to tackle. If I were Hue, I would cut him..but don't be surprised if the front office decides to keep Kruger.

Josh showed he still has it but once the season starts he will have too much free time (sitting the first 4) and slip up blaze up and that will be that

What I don't get is this front office
Had the cap room to go out and sign a
Pass rushing threat off the edge.
This defense is so young Kruger probably thinks
His role is secure cause of all the years he put
In.
He's just collecting a pay check.
Kruger won't even get 5 sacks this season.

Iluv...this front office also had the cap money to re-sign the Browns own free agents. Keep in mind, the Haslam family calls the shots.

Yet again, it's apparent this team probably won't win unless BOTH sides of the ball come up with a nearly flawless effort.

I'm still willing to give Hue plenty of time to right this thing.

No doubt it will take time with this team. Let's hope our FO will give it to them. I don't have a crystal ball but I really think we are going to give up well over 400 points this year. 25-30 points a game is a very real possibility.

Is Poyer dinged up? He's been pretty invisible so far.

I hope Horton was super focused on gap discipline and run stopping on D for some reason. It seemed like pretty much every play our front 7's job was to go straight ahead and engage the blocker there.

The right side of the line needs to get on the same page. Erving doesn't seem like he's getting blown up like he did last year, but he and Greco are working together poorly. I'm glad we saw stunts now rather than game 1 of the regular season. They need to get that cleaned up.

I don't think that our ILBs are slow (Scooby is a bit). I think they were just matched up on WRs frequently which is never a good thing.

Our OLBs on the other hand looked plodding. Orchard made Winston look nimble.

Tabor has to find some new special teamers. Our kick coverage looked like they were stuck in molasses.

TP made a solid catch on a non-go route which while not spectacular was nice to see.

Coleman was underwhelming, but he didn't seem to get that many snaps. Hope the hammy held up.

Is tangling your feet with the receivers' the new preferred coverage method?

I saw another Browns Embasrasing performance , that's all ? Gary

Hell, fans were outright laughing at the Browns in the stadium with the general idea of Bucs' fans being "I thought we were bad but look at those guys...".

j/c:

I think I'm done with Kruger. Just plug in Ogbah and don't look back. And if Orchard fails on the other side this year, then you know you need to address the OLB in the draft or something. I doubt Kruger will be here next year so trade/cut him.

This is my hot take from the game.

I saw: Poor performance, poor execution, horrendous discipline. A seriously pissed off Hue Jackson.

I hope: that the team was playing a very very limited offense, not wanting to give anything away to the Eagles Week 1.... that Tampa's DL is the best in the NFL (I know its not)..... that Mike Evans is the best WR in the NFL (He is very good, but not the best).... Hoping that Horton is saving a genius D scheme for the regular season (I know he's not).

To your first point, I disagree. I thought it held up alright last night. Now, it's not as good with Mack and Schwartz gone but I felt like they all did ok.

Definitely agree about safety. I'm worried about that group. And regarding the LBs, I think Kirksey did well but that's about it. Orchard had a near sack but Davis and Kruger seemed to be invisible. As I said in another post, I think I'm done with Kruger. I hope I'm wrong because we need a pass rush.

Twitter Vid Link

...is that legal?

Agreed we looked worrisome. A lot of work still to do before the season opener. Defense is an obvious concern but The O-Line performance last night worries me the most as Griffin can't take 5 sacks a game nor can McCown. Penalties too were ridiculous last night. Some very petty calls others just plain undisciplined play.

I'm not ready to cry that the sky is falling and that we will be worse than last year. This is still preseason and the Lions 2008 season should tell us that preseason success or lack of success doesn't always translate to the regular season.

Still, we have a lot to clean up and address over these next two weeks.

Great post....totally agree

Is Orchard considered undersized for his position? Just from the naked eye he seems very small

Did anybody see Shelton do anything positive?

He forced a fumble, and did collapse the pocket a time or two. Of course once he collapsed it, he got danced around easily.

I saw us, more than a few times, run a 4-3 and I think I prefer that alignment. Looks much better.

I didn't know he forced the fumble ... thanks

Even the radio guys said 4-3 was the standard alignment last night

Justin Houston is listed as 6-3, 258 lbs.

Orchard is listed as 6-4, 255 lbs.

Didn't really notice him looking small, looked more slow to me.

I noticed more of a 4-2-5 or 2-4-5, with the OLBs on the line. Not sure if I want to watch that again to figure it out for sure, though.

Random thoughts:

* 9 penalties on the Browns, not counting the 3 holding penalties that were declined when they were called on QB sacks. Holding penalties on sacks mean that even when we hold, we don't do it effectively. Memo to Doug Dieken in the broadcast booth: spend some time with Paszter teaching him that when he holds, his man has to hit the ground ... tackle the sob if you have to, or we'll be watching Kessler by game 6.

* Watching Winston last night and guys like Roeth and Flacco every year, has made me believe that the new prototype size for NFL QBs should be 6-5, 240-250, not the current 6-2 or 6-3, 220-ish. I also believe its only a matter of time before Griffin is injured, because he's too small. DeShaun Watson, everyone's darling for the 2017 draft, is too small. This was one of the reasons I wanted the Browns to use one of their 57 picks last draft on Cardale Jones.

* The brown jerseys with orange numbers with white 3-D highlights are simply hideous. My wife, who used to watch games with me from kickoff to final gun, didn't watch a single down last season. Last night, she looked at the Browns uni's for the first time and said "Good lord, what is THAT?". Thats your Cleveland Browns, dear.

* The combination of years of Browns' ineptitude, along with the NFL's apparent death wish, by virtue of rule changes to protect QBs, render WRs uncoverable, and only selectively calling holding penalties is making games unwatchable for me. It used to be a beautiful game, now its just an outdoor, full contact track meet. I approach the 2016 season with almost no sense of anticipation whatsoever.

* Get off my lawn.

I had to work so I DVR'ed the game and watched the first half of it last night when I got home. The offense wasn't bad, they just need to gel and I thought the OLine was OK when Joe was in there but when he would come out then they seemed to have problems. The defense was a whole different story, they looked putrid. No pressure, can't cover, can't tackle. Heck, the only bright spot was that they somehow stopped the run. It's early though and with a new coach, new scheme, and a lot of new faces it's gonna take some time to come together. What was up with Andy Lee not trying to tackle that punt returner? And how god-awful those refs were. I watched a Tampa D-Lineman come across the line of scrimmage and touch Bitonio and when Joe Thomas reacts they call him off-sides?!?! and on Tampa's first TD drive twice I saw their RT bear hugging our guy, I mean he had his arms completely around the guy and had a hold of the back of the guy's jersey, yet no holding call.

It definitely seems like white jerseys get flagged less often. Whether that is actually happening is hard to tell.

I'm guessing most of the officials grew up with the man in the white cowboy hat being the good guy. Could that subconsciously influence them?

Dave mentioned Doug Dieken ... and just a side comment by me, but I am to the point that I'm tired of listening to him. He always groans and sighs in the middle of Donovan's play-by-play ... to the point that it's distracting.

A guy sitting in front of me literally said he usually don't attend preseason games but this one he did because he knew it would be an easy win, this was before the game.

I think its because Doug is emotionally invested like most of the fans because he played with us, so he's sick of seeing the incompetence as well. Can't say i blame him, its much like Austin Carr on Cavs broadcasts, he doesn't hold back his feelings..lol

No, I definitely agree that he's probably feeling what I feel ... but listening on the radio is different because I can't see what's happening. So his distractions get to me.

We'd have won if we'd kept Mingo.

We'd be Super Bowl contenders by now if we would have kept Banner.

To be honest, I hardly got to see much of the game. What I did see what a nice pass to Gordon from RG.. We could use more of that.

I missed the TD but did see the replay this morning.. wow.. Very well done.

Gordon makes it looks easy.


That's about it for the good.

No sense in beating them up more than the rest of you have. I couldn't do it better LOL

They need a lot of work.. we just aren't a very good team.

We may, I say MAY, be competent on O but damn, we aren't going to stop anyone from scoring.

here's a question for OL buffs:

Why are we THIS bad? I can understand struggling after the loss of Mack and Schwartz, but we still have 3 returning starters (2 Pro Bowl caliber) and a 1st Round pick to go with them.

And it seems like we're the worst OL in the league ... both rushing and pass protect

I think the biggest thing is continuity and time to gel, another part being not getting quality players to replace. Not talking pro bowl, just serviceable would be good, that doesn't seem to be patzor or Erving. RT is our biggest hole right now

Offensive line was porous... Running game wasn't too bad... Crow and Johnson made a few nice plays... Gordon was by far biggest highlight.... Pryor looked good... Colman looked rusty

Rg3 made some nice plays... Held onto it too long most of the night which doesn't help the line... I think in general they need more time together to develop timing.

Overall offense wasn't horrible...

Defense was god awful. Doesn't help that they were going against a very good ofense that should make the playoffs... We had very little pressure on Winston and when we did we couldn't finish it off... Secondary was awful, but a better pass rush could help.

Way too many penalties.... I mean seriously... Those were just awful


Overall they played about how I'd expect.... I think we'll find a win or two this year but I don't expect more than 3-4 wins this year and that'll be a struggle.... Offense should put it together at some point if the line can gel a little more.... I have no hope for defense.

General reply.

It was night and day the quickness to release the ball that Cody Kesler showed compared to either RG3 or Josh McCown.

Maybe, he just didn't have reads to read and that's why, but for whatever reason, it showed pretty obvious to me that RG3 and McCown, would hold and look for an open man,

but Kesler knew where, and it was snap, step, and out. This was the first real look I had gotton of Kesler.

It even seemed to me that McCown was quicker than RG3, who seemed to hold on to the ball for a lot longer ... that'd be a question for the coaches as to why that is (design, inability to read the d, etc)

Yes, they will have to work on getting RG3 to pass the ball a lot quicker since our O line is weak.

Lord have mercy on this team.

J/C...

Did anyone really expect Horton to turn around the dead that O'Neil left here in 3 Pre-season games ?

Of course some did.

It was bad but let's be real. What are the expectations really?

Crowell and Duke ran well. The receivers do flash potential.

Griffin? He has a long way to go to prove if he is a true starter.

Before the pre-season began I put up two posts. Best case and worst case scenario.

The defense is the worst case scenario. You can not make it in the NFL with no pass rush. Especially when your DB's are lacking playmakers.

The reality is the Browns are a project.

Phil Simms said "have patience". That is easy to say. I have had patience forced down my throat since 1964.

It does not taste so good.

I wonder what it feels like to be a favorite going into a season instead of the expectations to win one game?

Obviously you are correct Lamp... I Saw a lot of lost boys last year trying to figure out where they were to line up on the field...

Guys not having a chance to learn because they had a D coach that had no clue...

I guess Horton forgot his magic dust... I wasn't big on his return... but never did I expect greatness from the mess left here...

3 pre-season games is not going to make the turn around.

I didn't listen to the radio broadcast but if they were saying 43 then they were speaking very loosely and giving an inaccurate view of the defense on the field. But, its very common for media covering football now to be very vague (wrong) with their explanations of Xs and Os.

Anyhow...I don't recall the Horton playing 4-3 (4 "defensive lineman" and 3 "linebackers") many times (if at all).

Nickel was the base defense this game (4-2-5..ie..
4 "defensive lineman" and 2 "linebackers") like Grimm said. This was used not as paradigm shift to a 43 but a typical response by most modern D coordinators to an offense that uses 3 wide as their base formation.

It is an interesting conversation though, the discussion about whether or not this personnel IN BASE DEFENSE is better suited to 43 or 34.

Personally, I think this defense has personnel holes regardless of the type of front. However; I think the either scheme 43 or 34 is better suited to play 1-gap rather then 2-gap.

This PRE-season game while not a good outing wasn't a sky is falling panic at the disco situation for me. Actually I don't see why many in this forum are up in arms at all consider the overall negative sentiment about the team in this forum.

Anyhow....

o It seems like Horton is still experimenting with the starting 4-man front. He started the game with:

LDE-Kruger LDT-Nassib RDT-Cooper RDE-Cooper

Imho Nassib doesn't belong playing DT at any time nickel or otherwise. I love the kid's motor, bend and instincts but playing him at DT seems counter to his skillset.

Cooper looked at home play DT-3-tech, when he was part of the DL he regularly has the best get off and ability to push/penetrate the pocket. But he's not firing off every snap which make me think schematically he's not free to fire off the ball upfield every snap

Kruger-didn't make any plays, didn't win his 1-on-1s; he was active and almost in position to get pressure but never got there

Ogbah-already looks to me like the best edge rusher on the roster and would be a lock for a starting spot at edge rusher 34-OLB or DE in a 4 man line.


First series on D:

o Kirksey is still coming downhill hard from the ILB, so far really like what I've seen from him (2 stops in 1st series)

o Jamar Taylor is continuing his aggressive physical play
in run support

o Would like to see our ILB react/recover better after playcation, On the play-action to Vincent Jackson the ILB spot dropped right into the passing lane yet didn't react till it was late. Winston threw the ball right passed Davis

o Gilbert had a PBU on 3rd down to force a FG

o Couldn't push the pocket up the middle

o Campbell made a nice play getting off a block to make a tackle on screen

First Series on Offense

o Crowell runs hard
o Penalty OL
o Gordon still has it, could shed some pounds
o 1st and 10 RZ throw to Barnidge, didn't like the read/decision. Barndige didn't get open and iirc was covered by their Hargraves...looked to me like Griffin had the TE on a drag route from the right slot and had Coleman backside on in-route
o Erving stacked into backfield on 2 & 10 in RZ
o 67 Pastor RT beat immediately on 3rd and RZ
o Griffin should throw the ball away

decent drive thwarted

Especially after letting some vets go.

That game was really hard to watch, I was so mad after I stopped watching.

After a hockey game and a sleep, I don't think it's quite as bad as I thought.

There was a lot of swapping players around. Thomas had a short night, and that coincided with the pass blocking going downhill. Also, we were extremely pass-happy, and I don't think the run/pass ratio will be anywhere near what we saw yesterday. I think Crowell ran fairly well against a fairly stout front.

The D won't be good. That should surprise nobody. Horton dumps the whole d on the team, and let's them struggle until they fully understand. The D will get better. We saw this last time Horton was here. It's only going to get so much better, though, because we really don't have the talent.

Also regarding the D... did someone forget to tell our defenders that they're allowed to hit the QB? There was a handful of times where it looked like they pulled up or ran around Winston. Winston is not a fast or shifty QB, but he looked like it against our rushers.

Gilbert looked horrible, and he started and was in there quite a bit. The guy does very little right. When he gives big cushions his man will run right by him, when hes playing press he gets run through. He is so mentally and physically weak, it's incredible.

Erving looked very meh. He had some good blocks, and he had some misses. I think he's made strides since last year, but that really isn't saying much. He's starting to put it together, I think, but consistency will be a struggle for him. He should be better for being a first rounder, but there's some hope for him yet. Not that I think he's going to fully replace Mack, but even Mack looked a little lost out there his rookie year.

Shelton didn't really do much, but when I did notice him he was engaged with 2 blockers. This seemed to happen quite a bit. That's good, I guess.

Griffen... oh boy. He looked like a guy we picked off the scrap heap, and he looked like the guy nobody else wanted to sign. He got hit a couple times, and developed happy feet. I think it was a bad idea to mix up the o-line and keep him in there. He started out looking good, starting getting hit and couldn't make reads and held the ball. After that he started to scramble everywhere. It's disappointing that he appears to revert back to what got him benched and run out of Washington, but he was a high-risk, high-reward option. I think this game was a tough test for him (mixing up the line and not running the ball very much), and he failed. Josh came in and started hitting receivers with quick throws, and offense started to move a little bit.


That was tough to watch, but I think that when games start to matter, then we'll see a different game plan on both offense and defense. We will see more Crow and Duke, we will see some better offensive line play, which should slowly improve throughout the season. We will see much less of Gilbert.
Other than Gilbert looking pathetic, I couldn't really make heads or tails of our secondary. A lot of really poorly defended passes. Safeties looked non-existent.

Every sack RG3 took:

Link

Sounds like Dan France had a rough time filling in for Joe.

I still think it was more communication than Erving's fault on the Ayer's stunt. Erving is right in front of RG3. Greco is randomly outside of Paztor. I can't think of why he'd swing that far out in pass pro.

Paztor got beat by Spence. He's a much better run blocker than pass protector. We might have to give him help from a TE or a chipping back fairly often.

They mention RG3 going left when he should have gone right, but I can't really blame him for thinking he'd have better protection to that side. He's used to Joe and Bitonio being there.

Yeah, I recall Nassib being in the middle, it doesnt work well. Replace Kruger with Ogbah and Ogbah with Nassib? I think that front could have something. I hope we see it more.

I would go:

Nassib--Cooper--Shelton--Ogbah

but would play 1 gap tell them to get up field not 2-gap/read

You think Griffin "failed" last night? Interesting...I didn't see him "revert" or get happy feet, the times he scrambled it made good sense to get out of there.

I don't agree with some of his decisions...but net-net thought he played well.

Paztor is bad, he's a PS guy starting, France should be in the first cuts, Drango actually looked pretty serviceable at LT for the most part, But the tackles are a mess

Game day thoughts.

RG3 is wasted time. I fully endorse the thought process that brought him here but he is not and NFL QB and i fully understand why Washington let him go and why they ran the offense they did with him there.

While his athletic abilities are off the charts he lacks the mental skills needed to be a successful NFL QB.

He can't read a defense possesses zero in his ability to anticipate receivers popping open. Have you seen him make so much as one timing pass, didn't think so and you won't.

I wished the Browns would just play McCown at least he looks the part of a pro watching RG3 play is like watching a sand lot game. Oh he can throw the bomb but he can't make another throw and he locks on his primary and doesn't even try to go thru his progressions. That's the bad news part of my thoughts.

I thought the defense was much improved over last week but they have little help on the the front end or the back end one might say they compliment each other perfectly. They will get better with playing time together as a group but their ceiling is pretty low.

My thoughts are that will get better but it won't be this year and not with RG3. The draft can't come soon enough IMO. Still it will be fun to watch this offense when RG3 connects on the bomb a couple of times each week, but we are in for yet another season of ass whippings.

What's the point of playing Mccown?

Lol, all this from 1 preseason game or simply rehashing old narratives?

Not embarrassing ourselves?

Playing the best guy at the job?

Actually trying to pretend to be an NFL team?

It won't matter - RGknee will be injured soon enough and McCown will be in there. Of course he won't last behind this OL either, so bring on Cody Kessler. We may not win a game so whatever.

Your free to disagree all you want. Nothing wrong with that. Yet in my opinion any O-line who can't even block for a mere 2 seconds is flat out terrible and they had many plays where they couldn't even block for 2 seconds.

Kruger is on his last legs so I imagine he is holding back in preseason to save his effort for the regular season. We will know for sure in a few weeks for sure though =)

What does Mccown do better? He's reaching Kelly Holcomb mythical status on this board. Even if he was better, so what? We might win 1 more game....?

That may very well be but if that is the old narrative on RG3 then it is spot on and to be honest its also quite obvious. I find it disturbing that after watching him actually play anyone with a bit of football knowledge wouldn't come to the very same conclusion.

I truly wished it weren't so myself, but I have watched him play and thats what I saw and I can't deny it no matter how much I wished it weren't so it is....

The point in playing McCown is to play the player that gives us the best chance to win in the short term and when compared to RG3 he is a pro while sadly RG3 is sandlot at best.

I tell you all what compare RG3 to Winston who was also under duress and look at the differences in results. RG3 after 4 years in the league should be equal to or way ahead of Winston, but he isn't and likely won't be.

Hue is going to have to dummy down this offense in a major way to give us even a sliver of a chance with RG3 at the helm.

We might as well go ahead and start talking about the draft now cause will have the top pick in the draft next year of that I have no doubts.

jc-

RG3 really held the ball way too long in this last game. You can't see what's going on downfield but I think he was really struggling with where to go with the ball a few times. This is consistent with the thought that he just doesn't have it post snap.

McCown is complete trash though. He's a proven loser. There is zero point in playing McCown. I am still trying to reconcile the love this guy gets with the actual play on the field. I get it. He's a hell of a nice guy and a class act. He's not a good QB. He's not a winning QB.

None of that really matters though. Both RG3 and McCown are going to get hurt (McCown also holds the ball way too long) and we will see Kessler. Kessler will either cement his position as the next Mccoy or he might surprise. I'm putting the odds at 90/10.

Rg3 is better than McCown. Y'all need to stop this nonsense of falling in love with the backup. How many times has the love of the backup qb bit us in the ass?

Yet y'all never learn.

Our offense showed a ton of potential. But we had two drives killed because of offensive line holding calls. That will be our biggest problem this year: whether or not our line can hold up more than 2 seconds.

We have waaaaayyy bigger problem on the defensive side of the ball. We have Haden, Kruger, and......umm......

swish...imo, it's not that our fans believe McCown is better than RG3...many of our fans believe RG3 will get hurt behind this offensive line and being "realistic", it's very possible that McCown will be starting sooner than most thought he would.

The problem is not entirely RG3...it's finding an offensive line that can give him the time he needs to find a WR and get rid of the ball so he does not take the punishment.

I just feel it was more about RG3 holding the ball too long at times than it was a poor performance from the OL.

Mac, bro, that still doesn't make any sense.

Didn't McCown get injured behind the '"better" offensive line last year? Seems like a lot of posters forgot that bit of information. Better o line, McCown ALSO held the ball too long last year, and was still getting murdered back there.

So that idea still doesn't make sense.

RG3 has a very small, but possible chance of being the guy in cleveland.

McCown does not.

Well, McCown's first injury - the concussion, wasn't behind the O line. It came from a very good scramble, and what then turned into a bad decision to dive for a touchdown.

He missed several weeks from that.

And the other injuries?

Edit: see what I mean? Some are worried about RG3 getting injured as if McCown doesn't have the same problem.

And I'm not saying McCown should or shouldn't start.

MY point is i don't think he should be traded.

That's all I'm saying.

I didn't say anything about him being traded though.

I think the o-line will look better come the regular season given time to settle in. We've been mixing and matching most of the off season. Greco was injured. Our RT could struggle some but that's what help is for. Drango has looked better than his draft position, and our higher pick was dealing with injury. Hopefully, they'll both progress and maybe supplant Pasztor.

I hope the threat of the read option will slow down opposing teams' pass rush some. That's one thing that intrigues me about Watson. He can be a hammer inside and Robert can fly outside if they over commit. As long as RG3 keeps sliding, I don't think his injury risk increases much at all. He's worse at avoiding pressure in the pocket than in space. I don't think anyone was worried about us running read-option in the preseason. They seemed to have their ears pinned back on Friday without much worry about containment.

McCown is a good guy, mentor, and can run an offense. However, he's old, reckless with his body, holds the ball too long, and has mediocre accuracy. He'll probably make a good coach some day if he decides to go that direction. If Dallas calls, I'd listen. The coaches we have can coach our QBs.

The defense needs work. I don't think we'll be as bad as we looked against TB, but we'll need to address this side of the ball in the draft. I hope RG3 and Kessler show promise so we don't have to use a high pick on a QB. Next year's class looks to be strong on D.

Responded to Caldawg by accident.

Scarlett sends my apologies...

What he does better is:

Can read NFL defenses
Goes through progressions
Makes quicker decisions
Throws with some touch
Can complete short and intermediate routes
Has better pocket presence/movement within the pocket

What RG3 does better is:

Throws the long ball
Runs faster

But, to your point McCown's also not "the answer" either - nor will he hold up over an entire season any better than RGknee. And even if he did, it's the difference between being a 0/1 win team and a 1/2 win team so it doesn't REALLY matter beyond sending a message to the team that you'll play the best guy at the position regardless of age/name/contract/draft status. At this point just put in Kessler, put a paper bag over your head and start paying attention again around May for the draft. That's what I'll be doing.

When all you have is hammer everything looks like a nail.

I would think people with football knowledge don't leap to definitive conclusions about players, lol, after some brief preseason outings.

I think when people, I'm not sure if you fall into this group or not, but when people with limited understanding of the true interconnected nature of football speak about football they focus on the QB because often the sum work of the other 10 players is expressed through the play of the QB. Joe Theisman always says 'QB is the most dependent player on the football field'.

Imho when the only thing people seek to assess is the QB then they see things inaccurately.

Previously you spoke in obvious gross exaggerations. For example you said Griffin can't read defenses. Obviously this is false. Even in this brief stint in these 3 pre-season games including the last game those who understand what they are looking at can see Griffin going through his progressions. Even in Washington you can see Griffin going through progressions.

Now, disagreeing that he 'can't' read defenses is not the same thing as saying he is proficient either. Griffin is still learning and improving in those aspects i.e pre/post snaps progression, throwing with anticipation and manipulating the pocket (which you didn't mention).

Anyhow enough of my thoughts here are the passes from Griffin's 'failure' which has apparently caused you to want to see him benched for McCown



https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-cle-tb-grades-winston-evans-hargreaves-all-star-in-bucs-win/



Breakdown of the 5 sacks:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2016/08/was_robert_griffin_iii_really.html#2

I haven't covered all the sacks myself but as I previously stated on the 1st "sack" even though the Pastor was beaten Griffin has escaped the pocket and could have thrown it away. So even though the RT got beat I still put that sack on Griffin.

The second "sack" Griffin again has to escape pressure but scrambled the wrong direction while escaping, this is more of a failed scramble then a sack.

I put 2 sacks on Griffin the rest was on the OL.

I just rewatched the game.
The Browns have the worst front 7 in the league.
Shelton is a bust.plain and simple.
He gets pushed back snap after snap with ease.
I don't need to see 2 full seasons of him to see that
He was a momumental failure by the Farmer regime
The whole dline is porous. No interior push.
The Lbers are are slow to get downhill and way too much
Reaching and no base what so ever.
Teams will run at will on this defense
And backers bite so hard on play action it's ridiculous

So we should be pretty fun to watch this year

Agreed. Once they settle on a starting 5 they can gameplan internally on which OL need help where the double teams need to happen based on personnel etc.

In the last game it was clear that the staff was searching for answers on the OL. Joe Thomas only played 18 snaps. Along with many other positions it seems like they were trying to find a back-up LT and with Pastor's spotty play the RT spot might be open. IIRC Drango played well at RT during camp and based on Coleman's scouting reports he should be a good fight for RT in this scheme. I would be surprised if they battle it out in the final preseason game. Heck, Mike Shanahan rotated the RG spot from series to series for the 1st regular season game to figure out his starter.

In the regular season read-option/zone-read could be huge benefit to the running game and mixed with play-action could help slow down the pass rush.

Injuries are part of the NFL, imho its not something you worry about. Griffin's injury risk is vastly overstated. Outside of Shanahan playing him while obviously seriously injured he's only had 1 injury ankle. Luck has missed games, Dalton missed games, Bradford missed a ton of games the list goes on in the NFL the injury rate reaches 100%.

Griffin is weird in that despite being a dynamic athlete he doesn't have that Romo/Russell/Rodger's type of nimble escapability. One of Griffin's flaws in my eyes is he's heavy legged in the pocket and doesn't avoid/escape sacks like his athleticism would suggest. Therefore Griffin really needs to master getting the ball out quick in order to help the OL because he can't help them by escaping from sacks like a Russell Wilson.

Tampa front 4 are very talented and they played into the 3rd quarter against our 2nd/3rd team guys. They blitzed a little but mainly what I saw was better talent and better scheme. Horton had our DL playing a mix of 1-gap upfield penetration and what looked like read-react 2-gap. Tampa was slanting and stunting DTs stunting DE-DTs and our OL was getting confused and beat.

I was surprised by the conversation post Tampa; I thought it would be all about the defense but people love to talk QB, especially Griffin.

But, I really question what Horton appears to be doing with both the scheme and the personnel. I think the defense is gonna struggle because there doesn't appear to be 1 true pass 12 sack type pass rusher on the roster.
There isn't that 1 fastball turn the corner get the OL back on their heels dude. I thought Ogbah could develop into that type of player but he's being used in a quasi OLB-all purpose DE role which imo is a waste. The defense imo should be featured to get him upfield with reckless abandon and the defense around him should be schemed to worry about the run/coverage. When I see Ogbah I see an 'edge rusher' ala Tamba Hali who almost never drops into coverage. I really like Nassib too but when I see him at DT or 5-tech I get a little sick.

If this defense is gonna avoid being near league worst Horton is gonna have to tweak his scheme to get those 2 guys premiere pass rush looks.

We saw what this defense looks like without pressure and it wasn't pretty.

I have no idea why the CBs are playing soft/off coverage.
There is a lot about the this defense I don't get right now.

The personnel isn't great, and the depth is very thin but right now I don't think Horton has found the right mix yet.



[/quote]

I agree that heading into the season the front 7 deserves to be rated at/near league worst. The interior push is certainly lacking.

Shelton. I did not see him get pushed back. Now, I didn't see him getting upfield consistently either though. I'm not sure if this is by scheme or what but often he seems to be looking/waiting to engage 2 OL rather then firing off the ball getting upfield (which he does sometimes) it makes me think its a scheme question mixed with a player a question.

Cooper get's a really good get off sometimes and playing like a true 3-tech but then other snaps he's (and other DL) also seems to be sitting back reading/waiting.

I've been seeing the opposite. I've been impressed by Kirksey's eagerness to attack and get downhill both to make tackles and to stack and shed blocks.

Davis is eager too but to my eye lacks the speed/range to get to the edge.

I thought the starting unit played the run well against Tampa, almost to a fault. Maybe emphasis on the run is why the DL weren't just getting upfield and why the ILBs were getting beat on play-action which is by product of ILBs playing aggressively in their run fits downhill.

Good convo though, the defense is gonna be a big question and with the limited personnel at best I still think they'll be bottom 1/3 unless Horton can really scheme it up and the offense can help them out with time of possession.

I think judging by the personal this defense is better suited to be a 4-3 scheme.
The Browns just don't have enough big boys to pull off
A 3-4 look. They are too undersized. They can't command
Double teams at the point of attack.
Every Browns down lineman can be blocked one on one.
The backers just look average
No explosion. No anger. They don't have that temperament
That says I'm gonna tear your head off etc etc
I just don't see that catalyst on defense that can have this defense playing like a rabid pack of hyenas.

Who would you play in the 43?

I have a guess at the DL but what about SAM backer?

Schobert--Davis--Kirksey

Obgbah--Cooper--Shelton--Nassib

Personally I'm not too hung up on the 43 vs 34 as I am about 1-gap vs 2-gap. I think this defense needs to play fast 1 gap get upfield as opposed to the stout 2-gap read-react. I think if they tried to get upfield they would do a better job of forcing double teams rather then trying to engage 2 blockers (which is what I see them doing)

from what I've seen Cooper, Shelton, Ogbah and Nassib and sometimes Meder can all win 1-on-1s when playing upfield.

We're seeing something different when it comes to the ILBs. I can't speak to their temperament but I have seen these dudes getting downhill.

I would have played Mingo at Sam before we traded him. Now I'd probably play Kruger/Orchard at end and try Ogbah as an attacking Sam.

I definitely think Shelton fits better as a 1 gapper. When he is moving forward, he's hard to stop. When he's reading/waiting, it seems hard for him to get started.

Wish Danny been out there more in nickel. I'd have liked to see Ogbah, Cooper, Shelton, Nassib up front getting after it. Nassib feasted on cleaning up collapsed pockets at Penn State.

I would say our coaches tried Mingo however they could ... for years. Just wasn't going to work

In a 4-3

I don't have much to pick from but here it goes

Ogabu LDE
Hughes DT
Meder DT
Nassib RDE

Cooper coming in on nickel fronts
Shelton on short yardage

Kirksey OLB
Davis MLB
Alexander OLB

I feel like this was the gap approach Horton used the last time he was with us. Its one of the main reasons why Des Bryant was successful in his first year. It allowed him to get after the passer, which is what he did in Oakland. I haven't followed the defense all that intimately through the first three games but maybe Horton's holding back on that until the season starts?

In 2013, it was all about having an "attacking defense". I think I read/heard that term more than Pat Shurmur's "we battled".

Yup, that's my best guess as the best/eventual front 4:
Ogbah--Coop-Shelton-Nassib/Kruger 1-gap penetrating; not sure why we haven't seen it much yet. They will probably start Kruger and give him a chance to produce and gradually work Nassib in rotation.

What do you think the actual starting defense will be?
base:
Poyer & Campbell
Ogbah,Kirksey,Davis, Kruger
Tramon & Haden
Hughes, Shelton, Cooper/Meder

Nickel front: Kruger/Nassib--Shelton--Cooper--Ogbah w/Jamar Taylor in the slot

That's good news. I don't know much about Horton's past schemes. After your post I looked up and found this: http://www.musiccitymiracles.com/2014/1/21/5327854/ray-hortons-hybrid-defense-a-primer
which along w/ your post gives me hope to see a more aggressive defense come week 1.

I'm not sure what they'll do on the back end. Poyer has been pretty invisible so far. I might stick Tramon back there in base, maybe in nickel also with Taylor in his spot and Gaines the nickel. I'd hope having a vet back there would facilitate communication which has seemed to be a problem. I think Gilbert hangs on and sees some time in apparent passing situations.

I'm guessing Orchard starts the season as the starter with Ogbah more of a situational pass rusher.

The rest looks about right.

Which one!

This team could lose 32 straight, and we'll be right back where we are now, A rookie head coach, and rookie everythings, and new GM's and everything else, after these guys fail.

The Browns won 3 games last year, At least one of them, the Titans, they wouldn't have won without Manziel, and Benjamin, Benjamin had 3 td's that day;
they don't have those guys.

Not only that, but in the conversation for 7 most experienced players on defense from last year would be, Tashaun Gipson, Donte Whitner, Desmond Bryant, Karlos Dansby, Barkevious Mingo, and Craig Robertson, none of which are on the team anymore. (Dansby had two defensive td's; who's going to get those this year?

Last year a guy at work found out I liked the Browns, said they were 3-11, he said, 3? who'd they beat?
And he was serious, he didn't think they beat anybody, all year long.
It's to the point, where, even if they do win a game, it's a fluke and it makes no difference on the season anyway.

This team gets no respect. So, hopefully they can get to work a fixing that!

Maybe Griffin needs a new look. The pom pom is not real attractive.

Corn rows or almost anything else would be an improvement.

It might change the whole dynamics of the offense.

The Browns will some games. They are really lacking talent on defense. But I do think they will score some points.

Hopefully the defense will improve over time. Right now it looks like a glorified tryout camp.

Maybe in the next draft they can actually bring in talent and make noticeable improvement.

I think he's using it as extra padding to lessen the severity of his whiplash.

Seriously? Vegas win total is 4.5. How many of you really thought going into the season the Browns would be over? Get real. It's ANOTHER development season. I'll take the under. Give Hue a season and let's see what happens. Lots of good nap time on Sundays while the Browns are on TV. Enjoy!

I thought it very interesting Vegas has us at 4.5. There is NOBODY on this board or any other Browns fan in the world that, if they had money riding on it, would take the over.

Seriously.... how did they get that number as high as 4.5??

I'd bet if they went game by game we wouldn't be favored in ANY of them right now ... maybe not within 3 points

in order to win that bet we'd have to WIN 5 games ... that seems like a freaking gimme bet

Some of the Cincy fans that I work with believe Hue would get the Browns to 8-8. I said now way in hell with the talent on this team that would be possible.

Thoughts..

Run defense looked a lot better. Amazing how much it helps when you make tackles and don't give up big runs.

Pass defense was abysmal. Giant bubble in the middle of the field between the LBs and the Safeties where our defense was evidently not allowed to go because Bucs receivers were running alone there all night.

Zero pass rush... again. which I'm sure contributed to why receivers were running around seemingly uncovered.

Offense, Crow and Duke ran the ball fairly well and we had some big plays. Way too many negative plays (sacks and penalties) to sustain drives though. I don't mind RGIII, throws a nice deep ball.. but our offense seems to have more flow with McCown, he is much better at the intermediate throws that move the chains... RGIII seems to like to stand there longer and thinks every play should be a homerun...

Overall on special teams, I had zero problem with Lee not trying to track that guy down and make the tackle.. dude is one of the best punters in the league, no need for him to hurt himself on a meaningless play..

Browns' Defensive Snap Counts and Stats vs. Buccaneers

7


Looking at the defensive snap counts in the Browns' 30-13 loss to the Buccaneers.

By Chris Pokorny @DawgsByNature Aug 27, 2016, 1:51p


Below, we analyze the snap counts on defense for the Cleveland Browns' third preseason game against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

Defensive Line


Pos Player Plays % Stats
DL Emmanuel Ogbah 43 62% 3 tackles (3 combined). 1 pass defended.
DL Carl Nassib 37 54% 1 QH.
DL Xavier Cooper 35 51% 1 tackle (1 combined).
DL Danny Shelton 25 36% 2 tackles (2 combined). 1 FF.
DL Jamie Meder 24 35% 1 assist (1 combined). 1 QH.
DL Armonty Bryant 12 17% No stats registered.
DL John Hughes 12 17% 1 assist (1 combined).
DL Kenton Adeyemi 11 16% 1 tackle (1 combined).
DL Chigbo Anunoby 11 16% 2 assists (2 combined).
DL Jason Neill 7 10% No stats registered.

I'll have to review the tape some more, but it was disappointing to see Carl Nassib playing early, yet not be able to have an impact against a depleted Buccaneers like. Danny Sheltonplayed late into the game but was a non-factor early. On Jamie Meder's first play replacing him (that I saw), he blew his man right into the face of Jameis Winston. John Hughes didn't play much, but brought an energy level that should show up on tape and elevate him to the starting lineup. I have know idea what this club will do with Armonty Bryant. He's been a non-factor this entire training camp and preseason, and has a four-game suspension to start the year.

Outside Linebacker


Pos Player Plays % Stats
OLB Paul Kruger 31 45% 2 assists (2 combined).
OLB Joe Schobert 24 35% 2 tackles (2 combined).
OLB Cam Johnson 17 25% 1 tackle (1 combined).
OLB Nate Orchard 11 16% 2 QH.

Nate Orchard got two hits on the quarterback, and overall, this is a very low percentage utilization at outside linebacker. I know we got rid of Barkevious Mingo, but I'll have to review the tape so see who else was playing here; maybe it was Ogbah.

Inside Linebacker


Pos Player Plays % Stats
ILB Christian Kirksey 40 58% 5 tackles (5 combined).
ILB Demario Davis 40 58% 5 tackles (5 combined).
ILB Dominique Alexander 19 28% 1 assist (1 combined).
ILB Justin Tuggle 18 26% 4 tackles, 1 assist (5 combined). 1 TFL.
ILB Tank Carder 11 16% No stats registered.
ILB Scooby Wright 10 14% 1 assist (1 combined).

Christian Kirksey has looked solid this preseason. Demario Davis can be a thumper, but he's already been exposed several times as a liability in coverage. Justin Tuggle had a big spurt of plays he made in a short period of time, but I don't know if that will catapult him up the depth chart.


Safety


Pos Player Plays % Stats
S Ibraheim Campbell 37 54% 5 tackles (5 combined).
S Derrick Kindred 22 32% 2 tackles (2 combined).
S Rahim Moore 19 28% 1 tackle (1 combined).
S Jordan Poyer 18 26% 1 tackle (1 combined).
S Sean Baker 12 17% No stats registered.
S Pierre Desir 10 14% No stats registered.
S Don Jones 10 14% 1 tackle (1 combined).
S Tim Scott 7 10% No stats registered.


Derrick Kindred saw some early playing time, so it seems as though the starting safety situation isn't quite settled yet. I continue to like what Ibraheim Campbell brings from a tackling perspective, and I'm sure Rahim Moore is in the mix too.


Cornerback


Pos Player Plays % Stats
CB Jamar Taylor 39 57% 2 tackles (2 combined). 1 pass defended.
CB Tracy Howard 38 55% 5 tackles, 1 assist (6 combined).
CB Charles Gaines 30 43% 1 pass defended. 1 FR.
CB Justin Gilbert 26 38% 1 tackle (1 combined). 1 pass defended.
CB Eric Patterson 21 30% 3 tackles (3 combined). 1 pass defended.
CB Joe Haden
19 28% 1 tackle (1 combined).
CB Mikell Everette 12 17% No stats registered.

Mike Evans beat Justin Gilbert and Jamar Taylor for big plays. Vincent Jackson beatTracy Howard on a play. Speaking of Howard, with Tramon Williams out, he saw some playing time as early as the second quarter. He made two nice tackles against the run, which is something that should stand out on tape. Joe Haden played 19 snaps and then exited for the rest of the game.

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2016/8/...-vs-buccaneers

Browns' Offensive Snap Counts and Stats vs. Buccaneers

11


Looking at the offensive snap counts in the Browns' 30-13 loss to the Buccaneers.

By Chris Pokorny @DawgsByNature Aug 27, 2016, 1:42p


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Kim Klement-USA TODAY SportsBelow, we analyze the snap counts on offense for the Cleveland Browns' third preseason game against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.


Quarterback

Pos Player Plays % Stats
QB Robert Griffin III 34 50% 8-of-14 (57.1%) for 119 yards, 1 TD. 1 carry, 4 yards.
QB Josh McCown 25 37% 6-of-11 (54.5%) for 65 yards. 1 carry, 1 yard.
QB Cody Kessler 9 13% 5-of-6 (83.3%) for 27 yards. 1 carry, 1 yard.

Robert Griffin III was crisp in throwing the football on the first drive. After that, though, other than the touchdown pass to Josh Gordon, there wasn't a lot to jump up and down about. He was sacked five times, had to throw away a screen pass due to it being blown up, and ran out of bounds on one play when nothing was there. It was really a couple of holding penalties that set the offense back for awhile, and with Joe Thomas exiting early and Cameron Erving not being as sharp in protection, things fell apart at times. Overall, I thought it was still an acceptable performance from Griffin, though.


Running Back

Pos Player Plays % Stats
RB Isaiah Crowell 18 26% 8 carries, 39 yards, 4.9 avg.
RB Terrell Watson 17 25% 5 carries, 9 yards, 1.8 avg.
RB Duke Johnson 16 24% 3 carries, 22 yards, 7.3 avg. 1 catch, 9 yards (1 target).
RB Raijon Neal
8 12% 3 carries, 3 yards, 1.0 avg.
FB Malcolm Johnson 5 7% No stats registered.
FB Jahwan Edwards 3 4% 1 carry, 2 yards, 2.0 avg. 1 catch, -1 yards (1 target).

If we're looking for positives from the game, it's the fact that Isaiah Crowell still isn't being blown up like he was last year. Once he has a chance to get going, he's a very effective running back and that was again on display against the Buccaneers. Duke Johnson had a nice run at one point; other than that, the ground game died once the backups entered.


Wide Receiver

Pos Player Plays % Stats
WR Terrelle Pryor 33 49% 2 catches, 15 yards (4 targets).
WR Darius Jennings 26 38% 1 catch, 12 yards (2 targets).
WR Rashard Higgins 26 38% 0 catches (2 targets).
WR Taylor Gabriel 23 34% 6 catches, 60 yards (9 targets).
WR Josh Gordon
21 31% 2 catches, 87 yards (2 targets). 1 TD.
WR Corey Coleman
17 25% 0 catches (2 targets).
WR Andrew Hawkins 17 25% 1 catch, 2 yards (1 target).
WR Jordan Payton 6 9% No stats registered.
WR Ed Eagan
5 7% 1 catch, 5 yards (1 target).
WR Josh Boyce
3 4% No stats registered.

It was nice to see Josh Gordon get his feet wet and produce again, but it's a bit of a bummer that we have to wait until Week 5 for him to play. Rashard Higgins didn't do himself any favors with a couple of drops and also seemed to have a tough time getting separation. Corey Coleman didn't get involved in the action. Taylor Gabriel seemed to be Josh McCown'sonly target in the second half, as he tries to fight his way onto the roster despite a crowded field. It remains puzzling why Jordan Payton is seeing so few reps. Marlon Moore did not have any receiver reps this week.


Tight End

Pos Player Plays % Stats
TE Gary Barnidge 34 50% 2 catches, 6 yards (3 targets).
TE Randall Telfer 22 32% 0 catches (1 target).
TE Seth DeValve
12 18% 1 catch, 7 yards (1 target).
TE Connor Hamlett 11 16% 1 catch, 6 yards (1 target).
TE E.J. Bibbs 3 4% No stats registered.
TE J.P Holtz 2 3% No stats registered.

Randall Telfer seems to have a firm grip of that No. 2 blocking tight end role. Seth DeValvemade his debut and caught one pass. Expect to see him featured a lot in the final preseason game. E.J. Bibbs continues to see a very low utilization rate.



Offensive Line

Pos Player Plays % Stats
OT Dan France 40 59%
OG Joel Bitonio 34 50%
OG Alvin Bailey 34 50%
OT Austin Pasztor 34 50%
OG John Greco 34 50%
OG Kaleb Johnson 34 50%
C Garth Gerhart 34 50%
C Cameron Erving 34 50%
OT Shon Coleman 25 37%
OT
Spencer Drango 22 32%
OT
Joe Thomas 18
26%

Browns quarterbacks were sacked eight times. Things weren't nearly as crisp as they were a week ago against the Falcons, but Anthony Lima brought up a good point on Twitter -- Cleveland relies so much on these formation shifts, but Tampa Bay had been exposed to them for two straight practices. Maybe that helped them be well-prepared with some late adjustments of how to attack Cleveland.

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2016/8/...-vs-buccaneers

Clearly, Sashi reads this board. You're a good man, Sashi!

Especially if you like high-scoring games (just that we don't seem to be on the right end of that stick). Low scoring O and a non-scoring D who doesn't pressure, take away, or tackle much. Recipe for success. Horton needs to step it up after the final flush. Thhis has been rough viewing so far.

Go, Browns.

I don't know what to think of Poyer from this preseason, as FS he's not gonna be that involved in the run game but I agree he wasn't around the ball much good or bad.

From our conversation about the different defense line-ups we both kinda saw Kruger as an obstacle for getting Nassib playing time and if they are equal players I got no issues with moving Kruger along to get Nassib out there. Personally I think Nassib has been better then Kruger thus preseason....

Poyer--Campbell

Orchard--Kirksey--Davis--Ogbah

Tramon--Haden

Hughes--Shelton--Cooper/Meder

Nickel: Nassib--Shelton--Cooper--Ogbah

It seems like Tramon lost his starting spot to Taylor. If he makes the team he'll be the nickel corner.

If Tramon stays, and when they go to a nickel, I think Taylor moves inside; Tramon is outside.

Still, I'm not fully convinced Tramon loses his starting job.

With Kruger being cut, I would not be surprised with any veteran being cut. Or any player period. Everyone is in play.

No doubt.

Doesn't he have a mild injury of some sort right now?

Yes.

I was away for the week-end and just read through the thread.

It seems that so far RG3 is being RG3. He has a very good long ball and escapability. He has learned to slide which is definitely a plus and should help keep him healthier longer. But some of his old habits still exist. He's still holding the ball, seems to have trouble with his reads post snap and seems a little skittish at times.

RG3 would be much better if given a better OL with more time protected in the pocket. It seems to me that anyone who knows the game (just seems to be a popular term on here lately lol) would understand that when you have a QB like Griffin, protection would be your best odds of success. Not sign him and then try to put together some make shift line with lesser talent and pray somehow it might work. When you look at a player like Grecco as an example. He looks very good in a supporting role between to very good players. But how will he look as the top dog between two lesser players?

The D and OL simply lack talent. It's nice to think your frog may turn into a prince, but the likelihood of that is slim to none.

Right now none is in the lead.

Friday was really hard to watch. Even with keeping in mind that it's the preseason and you aren't going to go out there and show any real looks, or any crazy blitz packages or anything like that.

It just seemed like Jameis Winston could hit a guy in the middle of the field for 15 yards any time he wanted.

And offensively the OL struggled just to keep their guy in front of them. Cam Erving is going to get someone killed. I don't think "it's the preseason" is any excuse for that guy not being able to keep his man in front of him.

I understand the thought process with letting guys walk in FA when you are trying to rebuild, but this is going to be a bad look, because this won't be fun, and it will seem like every season that we have seen since the 2007 fun season. But I just hope people keep it in mind that this is a true rebuild, and we have yet to really hit rock bottom with this roster. None of us want to hear about next year or the year after, but that's really what it is. It absolutely sucks, but this team wasn't going anywhere with the players that walked anyway. We need to draft way better than we have with these future drafts. File that one under "duh"

It's hard for me to tell from the broadcast angle if RG3 is holding the ball too long, or receivers aren't open (and what his progressions are). We've been running a decent bit of deeper routes which can take some time to develop. Hue mentioned something along the lines of holding the ball isn't always just on the QB in his presser. I wish I had the all-22 feed to get a better feel of things, but not enough to pay for it atm.

I don't think the OL lacks talent. The starters should be okay, the depth behind the starters was bad. France isn't a tackle, I can see why he got moved to G at Mich. State. I think our rookies will be okay with a little seasoning.

Our D-Line could use some more talent it seems. I agree on that.

All 22 is awesome, we'll worth it imo. But they don't give it until regular season. If you have a play you're really curious about send me a PM and I'll screen cap it (unless I learn how to vid cap/gif).

I don't think Buck game was a case of holding the ball too long. The pressure he faced was legit people getting beat quick pressure.

I'm optimistic about the Shon Coleman/Drango...Erving will need double team help.

DL is a mystery, there are some players with talent but not enough talent to be an average/above average unot. Unless Ogbah/Nassib stud out w/ 18+ sacks this D is gonna depend on Ray schemes em up whether they'll have success as D.

Why?

Maybe because he can't see what the receivers are doing - if they are open, etc?

Ahhh...........so a sack is preferable to throwing the ball away?

Is that what Hue is teaching RGIII?

Da hell you talking about?

Guy said, from the t.v. coverage, it's hard to tell if RG is holding the ball too long.

Meaning: was a receiver open? Or were they not open. Did RG just not see an open receiver?


The guy said he can't tell by watching the t.v. coverage. Period.

I get that you don't understand what I am talking about. No big deal.

j/c (quick reply)

Where do you throw it when you're in the pocket and have near instant pressure?

Pull a Weeden and chuck a wobbler to the other team?

Really, I'd just like to be able to see the whole field. I like to see how everything fits together. Some of the camera angles they use on TV are just plain bad as far as figuring out who's doing what.

Sometimes, sacks are not avoidable. However, some qbs....and RGIII is notorious for this.....hold the ball way too long and take needless sacks.

Check out Washington's sack totals w/him vs Cousins and Colt.

Furthermore, Hue has been trying to work w/RGIII on throwing the ball away [despite arch's feigned ignorance of the situation] and we heard of RGIII throwing the ball "over the fence" at TC.

It's an important part of the game that QBs need to master. Denial does not fix the problem.

Thanks for being so kind. But, it's not "feigned" ignorance. It's totally " I haven't watched more than a couple dozen plays this whole pre season" ignorance.

You're right, but it's still hard to see what exactly is going on from the TV views.

What you're not considering is that the QB has to get rid of the ball before he gets knocked down. If no one's open throw it in the dirt in the vicinity of a WR, throw it out of bounds, whatever, but do something before taking the hit or worse, losing yardage with the sack. It doesn't matter what's going on downfield. Quit holding the ball, get rid it.

I think that what Vers is saying is the RG3 seems to lack that clock in his head when it's time to either pass, run, or just get rid of the ball. An incomplete pass is better than a 8-10 yard sack, and he needs to get that through his head, like he has the idea that he has to slide instead of taking the big hit.

I have considered that, but there are also worse things like panic pick-6's. Sometimes, you just have to take the sack and live to play another down. Obviously, an incompletion is preferred over a sack.

It's just that I would like to see the whole field before passing definitive judgement. Where was he supposed to throw it away? Was his first read a bracketed receiver whom he had no room to step into a throw to? You can't just throw it into the stands from the pocket. People want to see him be a pocket passer, but this somewhat limits his options.

Could they have been bad sacks? Yes, but it's really near impossible to tell from the perspective I had to work with.

Here are Hue and RGIII talking about the sacks:




You can find these quotes embedded this article: http://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland/post/...-only-beginning

My previous post somehow got addressed to Caldawg.

Without the all-22 its hard to get closer to the true answer of whether Griffin was holding the ball to long or not.

What we do know is that he was pressured on 42% of his drop backs and from watching the game you can clearly see where France, Pastor, Erving get beat cleanly multiple times.

I'm not sure which broadcast feed you get but Phil Simms was remarked on one play that there was no open downfield and mentioned how the OL was getting beat and Hue should consider pulling Griffin and lauded Griffin for his toughness.

Hue himself,(and from Hue's history he doesn't hesitate to tell it like it is) didn't put the sacks on Griffin holding the ball.

Going from memory it didn't appear from the TV broadcast that there were open receivers on the screen when the pressure was coming which means the receivers weren't running quick/short routes.

So I guess that means Griffin was holding the ball too long?

A more interesting conversation is how or if could Griffin have avoided those sacks. I think that's more of an actual football convo...but what do I know...

There was sack iirc the 1st "sack" in the RZ where Griffin scrambled out of the pressure towards the sideline and one could argue that he should have thrown it out of bounds but he was trying to make a play and got back within ~yard of the LOS. Earlier I faulted him on the 'sack' but this is merely a stat sack more then an actual sack in my book.

There were a couple of other sacks where imo the ideal answer to avoid the sack was to get the hell out of there with conviction Griffin seemed undecided/hesitant whether to bug the hell out of the pocket and which direction to break.

I should have guessed that from all the issues to talk about we're back to talking about the QB.

I don't see those quotes reflecting directly to sacks, but more the offense in general.



link

When you fail to do the things that RG3 spoke of, it leads directly to pressure and sacks. Not trying to be a smart a$$, but after watching football for so long, it really doesn't need to be stated to understand that.

RG3 spoke of completing quick and intermediate passes when they are there.

I'm saying I didn't have a good view of whether or not "they were there" on the sacks.

Hue didn't seem to put the sacks on Robert. He said the line needs to protect better. He did mention RG3 needs to play better, but I took that in a the whole team needs to get better way. I suppose the same thing could be said for the line, but he had that more positive section about Griffin.

I'm not that tore up about it either way. Would have liked to have a bigger picture view, but the end result was ugly regardless.

Hue is right that the whole team needs to get better. I think the starters could look a lot better when the regular season comes. Just about any injuries could hamstring us, though.

The whole team does need to play better. There did seem to be a more crisp feel when McCown was in the game, 3 or 5 steps, plant, ball comes out... but it's not the 1s on 1s.. it's a bunch of back-ups.. so who knows.

Plus, this was Coleman and Gordon's first game so it's hard to tell who was in the right place and how their timing is together. It's going to be a learning process. I'm frustrated, I want to win... but I'm willing to give it a chance to come together..

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-cen...61-47cd23a4995d

@ 1:45s

I believe that it's an easy conclusion to reach that throwing the ball away is better than taking sacks even if nobody is open. And there is evidence that was being worked on in training camp.

I think there is something wrong or being missed if the focus of the conversation about the offense in the Bucs preseason game centers around whether or not Griffin was holding the ball too long (in essence causing sacks) without mention of the OL pass protection and the penalties.

You will probably blow off this article, too......but I'll try anyway. This is about RGIII's time in Washington. I'll just post part of the article, but you can click the link if you would like to read the entire thing.




RGIII holding the ball too long and getting sacked is not a new thing.

It's not an all or nothing proposition. Yes, sometimes you can blame the OL. Sometimes the QB doesn't throw the ball away when he should. This causes a loss of yards that wasn't necessary. Sometimes the QB can't process a WR coming open or being able to throw him open.

To try to advocate that all sacks are caused by one or the other, tries to paint an inaccurate, one sided story.

The past is the past and I can't picture Cousins or noodle arm Colt McCoy throwing as many deep balls as RG3.

Yes, he was said to have that problem in the past. I haven't watched enough full games of him on the Redskins to get a good feel for the accuracy of that.

I'm not sure he's still holding the ball too long now, if he was before is somewhat irrelevant to me. What I want to know is is he getting better? I didn't see him holding the ball too long missing open receivers like some of the stills that had been posted a ways back. He may have, but it didn't seem like it to me live, and the broadcast view didn't always let me see the whole picture.

It's easy to revert to that narrative because we looked awful, but how much was really RG3? I can't really say yet.

Read what I wrote again.

Which part of any of my post quoted above or any of my other posts about the offense and show me where I advocate that all sacks are caused by the OL? But on the flip side I can't point to a number of yours and other posts in this thread that only mention Griffin holding the ball.

What would you call it when a QB takes a sack rather than throwing the ball away? You see, holding the ball too long doesn't mean four or five seconds. It means having the ability to see defenders coming and get rid of the ball to avoid a sack.

I have no qualms saying that the OL isn't good. I've stated that it made no sense to sign RG3 and let linemen go. That he needs protection due to his injury history and protection to give him time to make the most of his greatest talent, the long ball.

It's my belief you see what you wish to see and ignore the rest. It's also my belief that as the season carries on, it will be much easier to see how defensive you get to make excuses for RG3 no matter what the circumstances. It's already evident for anyone willing to look at it.

It all works together.. Griffin was sacked like 5 times?

First time on 3rd and 10 from the 16, we lost 1 yard and kicked a FG.. throwing the ball away nets the same result.
Second time was 3rd and 11, we lost 2 yards.. punted. throwing the ball away nets the same result.
Fourth time was on a 3rd and 15...

It's not like he was taking a lot of drive killing sacks on first down or getting us knocked out of FG range... hopefully he knows the difference.. and with each possession, we were further and further behind so I can't fault the guy for trying to make a play.

Let's not forget the two drive killing penalties from our RT. tough spot.

I should have known you would blow-off the information.

You're right. You should have known I'd "blow off" old information that has no practical bearing on how he did last week when my entire premise was on not knowing whose fault something was last week. What does 3 years ago have to do with the particulars of what happened in our game against Tampa Bay?

No problem. I won't make the mistake of attempting to have a logical conversation w/you again.

Answering your rhetorical questions and engaging in what would only be a pseudo-objective discussion is silly to me. I've already tried to engage in discussing the game and what actually occurred on the sacks (and other plays) in specifics rather then in your broad strokes long ago.

You've made it clear that despite the HC, a third party objective source PFF, the commentator Phil Simms etc you've already decreed that Griffin was holding the ball so what's the point?



Sure.

The above quote is from one of my first posts in this thread. Notice, I'm not, lol, 'ignoring the rest' because I'm actually posting about an entire series of plays, in subsequent posts I talk about the defensive series, got into a good and very timely discussion about Kruger and the edge rushers, 43 vs 34, possible 4-man front line-ups etc...etc...etc...

Btw, have you commented on anything other then Griffin holding the ball? Oh, I must have been too busy ignoring the rest to see them. Lol.

Cheers bro.

There were a couple of plays where I thought he had a chance to just take off from a collapsing pocket. But yeah, when/IF the plays or in this case the 'sacks' are looked at in more detail then a stat line or sound bite there is always more nuance.

I was saying this earlier...

I'm sorry that I want to talk about what happened in the game in a forum titled "Looking Back: Browns 13 Buccaneers 30" and not about the 2014 and earlier Washington Redskins.

If you want to re-hash that same article which you were linking all off-season, start a thread in Pure Football and maybe someone will want to go over it for the 50th time. I'm not one of them.

Your reply is funny, yet quite evasive.

There are times RG3 holds the ball and takes sacks because he doesn't throw the ball away. There are sacks caused by the OL. It's a combination of factors. To ignore any one of these factors is to close your mind to the big picture.

If that's your prerogative, so be it. But to act as if it didn't happen is much closer to what I expected from you. After all, you came here as an RG3 pimp and I'd say you'll always be a denier.

All in all he's performed pretty well. But there are still some remnants of his problems in Washington. Not saying they can't be fixed. However, it's obvious there's still work to do.