DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Browns Front Office....still not ready for prime time..(imo)

Each FO has had a plan. The plan has never been the problem. The problem has been that the owner blows things up when the team loses and the plan never is seen through to the end.

And last time I checked, the owner is still in the building.

I'm at the point where all the rhetoric means very little to me. It's not about talking the talk, it's about walking the walk.

Dear Conpiracy therorists: (Vers and Mac)

You're not special

You're not "awake"

You're not Enlightened

You're not one of the Few

You're not an expert

You're not an investigator

You just have internet access..

You made several posts in a row making fun of mac and trying to get others to do the same and then you get offended when I point it out?

And all this time I thought Haslem refused to pay players.

Again with the Pictures... Well, I should be flattered I guess, at least this time you explained your self.

Pot, meet Kettle.

I think these two excerpts goes back to posts I made (maybe even on this thread) about Sashi's role when Farmer was here. Sashi came into the fold when the GM told him to.

Mac, as I read this article you've posted, it seems to contradict many of your arguments.

Careful Memphis, that's two posts in a row where you disagree with Mac.. Pretty soon you will be visited by the image of Judge Judy as was I. Careful.... you are being watched!

LOL............so you turn around and do the very same thing again.

j/k

. Girls, please...

I remember hearing the same statistic on our high paid defense. We had the highest paid defense or were certainly in the top 3. No idea where you validate that. I have no doubt some on here will no where to go. . . .

But it doesn't matter. It won't matter what the facts are ... No matter the facts, if they pay the defense you'll say they were cheap and didn't pay the offense, or the kicker or whatever else....

Boils down to you think Haslam, owning a Billion dollar team who will undoubtedly make more money and increase the value of his assets with a winning football team is being cheap and not spending money on players because of a financial motive.... and you think the FO is obliging and happy simply to have a job and will do whatever Haslam says. I don't know the facts - but it has been widely reported that saving money under the cap does not benefit Haslam directly .... but even if it did I don't personally buy it.

You have zero facts to support you assertions - you have rampant speculation. Just like everyone. Yet your posts always state everything as facts.

You would rather cobble together the best team this year - regardless of their ability to compete this year, next year or the year after .... you want the Browns to commit their salary cap to players who may or may not be the long term answer and who may or may not want to be here .... the FO is rebuilding from the ground up. Seems to me that if you are player who doesn't buy in completely you better be really good or you will be goneski.

Your posts are written from the perspective that you know the facts - when in reality any post on this topic from anyone all we have is speculation and opinion because we don't know how the Schwartz negations went down. Or Mack's or Gipson's ... For a board that is supposed to be "football talk" it seems we are all prepared to indulge in conversations that are based completely on speculation and imagination. . . . I get that is human nature and to be expected, but 28 pages and nothing has really changed in the debate. That's a little insane and totally pointless. The proof comes in a year or 2 - when we have consistency in the FO and coaching staff. I'm looking forward to tomorrow's game and seeing a lot of young talent play. I expect a win - but if we don't I won't be ready to give up on the team. . . . I don't expect them to be very good this year. As a fan I *hope* that all the best possible outcomes materialize, that all the potential turns into reality and we win more than 5 games. But I don't expect it because we are rebuilding.

That's the beginning, middle and end of this issue. It's a complete rebuild and the plan so far is being executed nothing short of brilliantly with the Browns picking up draft picks for our trash (Gilbert and Mingo) and getting excellent value for an excellent punter who is a wasted or superfluous asset on a team expected to be bad (not to mention we picked up a replacement who is statistacally only marginally inferior).... That's it an a nut shell . . . the next part of the execution is making great draft picks. Good probably won't turn around the team quickly. But I guess - in reality good would be light years ahead of what we have been doing .... and on a ridiculously small sample size, the 2016 draft looks to be the best we've had for years and years .... so more reason to be positive, grab a beer and enjoy watching the development of the talent. . . . my biggest question mark is not Haslam and his money - it's Ray Horton and his defensive scheme with a handful of young talent sprinkled with some mostly average veteran talent.... with a to-date under-performing Danny Shelton in the middle of it all.

Can you put the Pettine/Farmer plan into words and show how/where they followed it?

There didn't seem to be much method to the madness, and not everyone seemed to be reading from the same plan. We traded up for a CB the GM never met, and drafted a QB the HC and OC didn't seem to want. When the two sides aren't in synch, you end up with the cluster we had last season.

The processes seem to be defined much more clearly now, so everyone can better be on the same page. The two sides seem to be working more closely all the time. Hopefully the one team, one direction attitude will continue when things get tough. And they can avoid drafting busts at the top of the draft.

This is my biggest fear.

I think the world of Hue Jackson as head coach. When it became apparent that the Browns were going to blow things up again, and fire Pettine, Jackson was the one coach I wanted. Frankly, I never thought that he would agree to come here.I am glad we got him, and I think that part of the equation *should* be settled ..... but, as you said .... knowing the owner of this team; who knows?

I also think that Brown and Podesta have a good plan in place, adding tons of youth to the roster, and letting them develop together. However, and again, it all depends on the owner not flipping out and handing out pink slips when we have a 2-4 win season. I have no confidence that he won't do so, based on his past behavior. All I can do is hope that he finally gets it, and understands that rebuilding a failed NFL team takes years. It is not accomplished overnight. I really don't know if I have another 1 or 2 years and "You're all fired!" in me. Haslam has as much to prove as anyone else on this team.

Sorry late to the party

Vers. I agree that sashi was in charge of contract negotiations but he was not in charge of which players were targeted to get and or keep.
He can only work on the contracts for players he was told to work on

Now who issued his marching orders then becomes the great unknown

Ytown. My biggest fear as well is that Haslam does not allow this to
Play out
If he drops the hammer again after 2 or even 3 years then he will never succeed and just needs to get out

Agreed. Which was my opinion on the situation and what TP wrote about as well. Not saying TP has all the correct info, but the hierarchy makes sense.

In a perfect world the GM sends out the marching orders however there clearly were some power struggle issues in Cleveland.

I think, on this, we all agree. Everything comes down to Haslam staying the course on the building process ( I first typed "rebuild" but you have to have built something to rebuild it ).

I understand not staying the course on Farmer. The suspension, the refusal to draft/sign WRs, the drama with Manziel, drafting a CB with a # 6 pick he had not even talked to, the meddling with the coaching staff, any one of this things by itself could be a concern, but all put together spell disaster. So Farmer had to go, continuity be damned.

This came after dumping Holmgren/Heckert, Banner/Lombardi and the coaches associated with those regimes. We have all debated why those regimes had to go and, for the most part, agree to at least some of the reasoning. My problem with Haslam has not been so much with his itchy trigger finger on firings, but in his choices of the people he hired for the positions. Do it right the first time, then let the FO do it's job...

According to your chart, it looks as though the Browns were in the top 5 in Spending for Defense. I wonder how much the dead money increased the total, such as spending for Taylor, Rubin, and others no longer with the team.

Of course I can. However, I won't because you won't listen to facts and instead make excuses to fit your agenda. You know, just like every other time you have asked me questions and I provided facts.

You have no facts to prove that haslam is being cheap and instructing the FO to not spend money on any player they want.

And having a link that apparently shows the defense was top 5 on money spent on them means .... Nothing.

looks like they are listed as 7th

AKA: No, I won't answer your question, and it is too hard for me to come up with a different question to present facts towards that seems remotely related yet supports my previous position, so I'll attack you as a poster.

-----
If not for me, could you enlighten everyone else?

What exactly is my agenda? Supporting the team I'm a fan of and hoping for the best? Asking for context on lazy blanket statements?

Yep, GrimmBrown, closed-minded board-bully. smh

I don't particularly like Haslam, but I do believe this version of the Browns leadership will be given time, not broken up after 1-2 years of not winning. I realize JM has fired 3 leaderships in 5 years, but this time, in my opinion, is different.

First, he inherited Shurmer and Heckert. They were never his guys and their dismissal was a foregone conclusion. So in 2013 he fired them and gave Chip Kelly the full court press. This is my opinion, but it looked to me like Haslam was so convinced his personal charisma was going to win Kelly's heart, that he was surprised when it didn't. Once Kelly turned him down, there was a desperate scramble to form a plan B, resulting in the hiring of Rob Chudzinski after all the better options were hired by other teams. (And the entire football world said "Who?")

The team of Banner and Lombardi were never happy with Chud. Again, my opinion here, but I think they decided early that they wanted a second chance at hiring a HC, Chud was fired at the first opportunity. This time, Lombardi had his favorite (Daniels), and Banner had his (Gase or Quinn.) The in-fighting between those guys got so bad that all the top options wanted nothing to do with the organization (and its already bad reputation.) The Haslam/Banner marriage was arranged by the NFL, but at this point Jimmy had had enough. He fired Lombardi and gave Banner a month to clean out his office. Haslam decided on Pettine and Farmer. (And the entire football world said "Who?")

When Haslam said he would give Pettine and Farmer a chance to succeed, I believe he meant it, but the level of dysfunction made that position untenable. Once again, this is my opinion, but I think Haslam and Sashi were building their plan throughout the 2015 season. When the season ended, they enacted the plan, knowing it would involve a complete rebuild. They targeted their top choice for HC, and for the first time in the Haslam era, they actually got their top choice. (And the entire football world said "Hue?")

This time is different. Jimmy has his coach and he has a FO with a plan. He knows it will take time, and he's willing to give them that time even when the losses pile up. That is how I see it.

Those are some links and some say they stuck to the plan, but what in your words was the plan? And did they really stick to it?

They conducted a study that said to draft Teddy and they went and drafted Manziel. How is that sticking to the "plan"?

They had a general idea and they kind of stuck to it (build the foundation/win in the trenches), but as far as the nuts and bolts plan I didn't see the execution. The "processes" seemed kind of chaotic. Not meeting Gilbert? How does that make sense?

They had more of a "goal" than a plan to get there in my opinion. Now we seem to have more of a "How to get there plan" where before we just had a "where we want to get plan."


We'll see how it goes. Hopefully we have the right people/processes in place and will give them the time to see it through.

So no matter how much evidence that was presented, you were going to question it anyway.

I believe that was the prediction.

I believe I asked if he could put the plan into words which he still hasn't done, and said his general MO was to "post facts" only vaguely relating to the actual question. I've said that I ask questions when people don't provide context. I like people to give their own perspectives as well, rather than getting links to articles I've already read.

Attack me rather than my argument

I've heard them say "outside noise" for months now. Obviously the FO/coaches realize that they must brainwash the young guys into thinking they'll be good

Yes it can but the real hard part is getting guys to stay focused and to work hard when the loses pile up. That's what I actually loved about Mangini he was able to get guys to work hard thru losing, and with the talent and lack of experience compiled with lack of playing time together the losses will pile up can Hue keep them working? I think he can, and that makes him a special coach.

Lets be honest this team is about to get their asses handed to them week in and week out if they can make incremental improvement thru the season it will be a major accomplishment for Hue and his staff. Becoming upset while this process plays itself out won't show anyone you truly have a handle on what this team is at this moment, no matter where it comes from (owner, fans, media).

Hue has a 0-16 team anything beyond that is gravy. Getting better week in and week out is the only thing a reasonable fan should expect IMO.

LOL..........just as I predicted. Look, bleed made a statement and I responded to it.

Here it is again:



That's it. There is nothing more.

I might agree, that there seems to have been what some would call a plan. But..really, would you or anybody else want to leave the "plan" in place? I sure wouldn't.

Jimmy had no choice but to blow it up. W84nxt had an excellent post about the hows and whys of what we did.

Just can't see anyway, that we don't make the changes that we made. We had to.

That's fair.

You do remember me complaining about Farmer and you--and many others---berating me for doing so.......right?

Look, it almost always starts out this way. Heck, just last year people were saying things like "so, this just feels different," and "this is how you build a team."

Losses mount and the narrative changes.

Haslam fires guys and the same people who were crusaders for the previous regime begin to trash them unmercifully.

They then proclaim how the new guys are different and we finally have a plan.

Long live the King!

It's played out that way over and over and over.

I think this plan is okay. I have a couple of doubts about it, but I think most guys who get that high are intelligent enough to formulate a workable plan. My big question is.......

.........Will they be given adequate time to see it through?

Not sure how anyone can question my reasoning on that????

[/quote]

Yes it can but the real hard part is getting guys to stay focused and to work hard when the loses pile up. That's what I actually loved about Mangini he was able to get guys to work hard thru losing, and with the talent and lack of experience compiled with lack of playing time together the losses will pile up can Hue keep them working? I think he can, and that makes him a special coach.

Lets be honest this team is about to get their asses handed to them week in and week out if they can make incremental improvement thru the season it will be a major accomplishment for Hue and his staff. Becoming upset while this process plays itself out won't show anyone you truly have a handle on what this team is at this moment, no matter where it comes from (owner, fans, media).

Hue has a 0-16 team anything beyond that is gravy. Getting better week in and week out is the only thing a reasonable fan should expect IMO. [/quote]

I don't know if anyone else caught it but, I loved the "Coaches mic'd up" segment on NFL's Total Access last week that had a couple of shots with Hue telling a player, outside of camera view, "you better stop this college tryout crap or your going home" (paraphrased), and in another one he called out the rookie Ricardo saying, "Ricardo, you catch and run the ball that way, catch and run (pause) Now!" Then he turns around and says "Where's my receivers coaches?" "Get our there and teach him how to catch and run!" It was priceless.

jmho

They're not ready for college.

harvard tho

That's my fear as well. This is by definition a complete rebuild of epic proportions. Personally I like the formula if they can draft well. However, will Jimmy give them the time to pull it off is the real question to me.

This is at least a three year process. If all goes great we start showing signs of life in 2018.....most likely 2019. I have great reservations about Jimmy being patient enough to let this play out that long.