DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Presidential campaign thread 6

policy wise, that's why i support hillary over johnson.

i literally just gave you the reason why. Hillary's policies are something that i

A. agree with, or
B. can tolerate/compromise on.

my issues with Hillary don't come from her policies. it comes from her character.

if you paid any sort of attention to my post in multiple threads, you'd understand that already.

Vers something I believe Trump does a very good job of is motivating his base. He may be one of the best ever at sparking enthusiasm in his targeted audience. He does touch base on some policy issues I greatly approve of. He's also not a religious fanatic that wants to install a Christian sharia law type of theocracy too.

My issues with him have been consistent. I do not like spending more money to increase the military budget. I love our troops and think of them as heroes, but we spend a &$*^ ton on the military. I also wish he'd stop lying about bringing shovel ready jobs back. That is something which truly irks me.

hmmm....do you know why we are considered the #1 country in the world to most people around the globe?

So, you have no problem w/any of Hillary's stances?

For example, you support the Exit tax?

Have you examined Johnson's platform? I posted it on here once, but I doubt if anyone actually read it. LOL

Wow..........Swish the imperialist.

Frankly, I am opposed to our military, political, and economic raping of other countries. I wish that our country would be more concerned w/taking care of Americans rather than shoving their policies and greed down the throats of unwilling folks in other parts of the world.

But, that's just me.

yea i support it.

we all know businesses are bouncing because they are trying to escape their already low ass tax rates that they ACTUALLY pay.

will it actually get passed? probably not, seeing as obama already tried and congress stopped it.

i did read it, and then i went line by line on the issues.

i see you ignored that post, too.

also, you didn't answer my question. do you know why america is #1 to people around the globe?

I guess you support it because you don't believe in working for a living and instead want handouts from people who do.

That policy will severely hamper spending in America, which result in even a greater loss of American jobs.

You go, Hillary!!!! Let's create one huge welfare state!

I don't post like I used to. Had a big long post about my daughter, granted, it would come across as a "look at my daughter post", but I didn't post it.

And, it should've come across as a "look what doing your job does for you", but, oh well.

So now I don't believe in working for a living?

Military intervention may be the one and only issue me and Swish disagree on. If I'm an isolationist or a pacifist then fine. However, I'm tired of other countries depending on us for protection and us footing the bill.

When did you ever believe in working for a living?

So....I'm going to ask for the third time, do you know why people around the world view America as the best?

I believed in working for a living since I was old enough to work.

And since I've worked for a living, and am going to school to get a degree to work in the civilian world, then your post make no sense.

I'm going to stop responding to you. It really seems like you're not trying to have a discussion with me, but instead you're bashing me and treating me like a child who has never experienced life. You're only interesting in calling me a druggie and implying that I'm lazy.

And I really don't appreciate that. I dunno if you're joking or not, but it isn't funny at all.

Uhmmm...........I think I answered your question when I posted that article w/the chart.

However, you are dodging the questions about approving of all of Hillary's stances.

Dude, when do you work and when do you go to classes? Seriously?

This is one of the excellent things about Donald Trump. He understands that intervention and regime change often has disastrous consequences. Look what happened in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, and Syria during Hillary's time as Secretary of State. Think of all the senseless violence and chaos.

I swear, it seems like she is trying to pick a fight with half the Eastern world. I got a chuckle earlier in this thread when one of the liberals posted a list of Donald Trump's and Hillary Clinton's last 72 hours or whatever-- basically a long list of all the 'bad' things Donald Trump has done vs Hillary getting sick and overheating, or something like that. Anyway.

The first thing under the Trump list was that he praised Vladimir Putin. Ok... and? I don't even have the context; I've just seen this play out before. You don't have to like Russia. You don't have agree with everything they do, but they should be respected. I'm an American and I care mainly about America and its citizens, I'm just saying, maybe an adversary that has 7,000 nukes saved up should be treated with some kindness. Meanwhile we have Hillary constantly rattling the saber, the Democrats are constantly accusing them of hacking their own embarrassing documents based on some extremely flimsy data. Like the metadata contained info that the computer that accessed the info had a Russian keyset on it, something that a skilled hacker of any origin could have done to hide his tracks.

Anyway, I'm probably rambling a little bit too much, lol.

I don't think you are rambling.

I will say I am not as educated as you are about Trump. He worries me. I think his blustery attitude towards other countries could prove to be a disaster. I don't get comments like "why can't we use nuclear weapons." I don't get the wall. I don't get the hatred for "all" Muslims.

But, then again, perhaps I am not educated enough and have been swayed by all the negative articles that I read on here.

On the other hand, I really like how Johnson is more of a hands-off guy in regards to our dealings w/other countries. I like how he would rather concentrate on the home front instead of spreading ourselves too thin.

I get that a lot of people don't agree w/that line of thinking and that's cool, but I thought I would voice my opinion on the matter.

We don't have to respect Russia, just don't provoke them.

Something else Trump deserves props for, he has neutered the media. Matt Lauer basically had his balls ripped from him during that town hall. He was terrified to ask Trump anything.

I don't have anything personal against Lauer, but it's going to take him years to recover from that and restore any reputation he had.

You're actually sounding pretty reasonable. This is the election thread you know. If there's ever a place to post something crazy, this is it

In all seriousness though, we have talked about some of the concerns you've brought up. Just two quick comments because I'm going to wrap this up for the night soon:

1. I think the world is a much safer place with Trump as Commander-in-Chief compared to Hillary. It's hard to predict the future, nobody can account for all possibilities but I genuinely don't even think this is close.

2. There isn't any hatred for "all" Muslims. That is crazy. There are about 3 million Muslims in the United States. The large majority are good people, just like any other group. Only a tiny minority have caused any violence. The issue isn't singling out Muslims. It's more the trends of violence and beliefs that are incompatible with many Western values that comes with increasing numbers of Muslims in a country. How much of that is tolerable?

There is a refugee crisis going on in Europe. I believe it would be wise to observe what happens there. Do they assimilate? Are they mostly constructive members of society? Is there an increase in violence and terrorist attacks? Are the countries better off having brought said refugees in? I don't have all the answers, but I believe those are fair questions. The early returns are not good, but I'm willing to keep an open mind.

Except we don't let in as many as Europe does, and our process uses much more vetting than other countries. Many come over, and help revitalize areas. Look up Toledo, Ohio's refugee success story. Clem's mentioned it a few times, but such articles tend to not fit the prevailing narrative on here.

That is pretty cool. How many refugees have been resettled into Toledo? How have they helped revitalize the area? Those are genuine questions btw... do you have something where I can read up on this a little bit?

I do think it would be prudent to see how things play out in various European countries, even if different countries have different approaches with such things. I don't think that is too controversial of an opinion.

You forgot to mention the european countries trying to stop the immigrants now.

I don't agree w/you about Trump, but you come across as a pretty smart guy and most of the time you argue fairly, even if it from a biased viewpoint.

I will readily admit that I know more about Johnson's policies than Trumps. He turned me off right away and I dismissed him.

What about you, arch? What do you think of Johnson?

I get the concern, but I feel much of it is born out of an irrational fear of the other.

Here's a few articles I found:

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Link 4

I just looked through the first link and it said that Toledo welcomed 54 Syrian refugees. That is great and all, I am really happy for them (really) but that is hardly revitalizing an area. It's also not really comparable to numbers that Obama and Hillary want to bring in, let alone what some European countries have already brought in. It's also not just refugees from Syria, but other places in the Middle East, Africa, and others.

I know that Germany and Sweden have been praised for taking in a huge number of refugees and immigrants. How has that worked out for those countries? Are they better off for it? Those aren't meant as rhetorical questions. I think it is relevant and something we could learn from, whatever that may be.

Thanks Vers. I am biased on this, no doubt about it. I do not like Hillary. I'm kind of lukewarm on Trump, he's not my ideal candidate but I actually think he's doing a really good job now. I'm intrigued. Any reservation I once had about voting for him is now gone.

I do try to argue fairly, I won't spread what I think is nonsense or lies about anybody, not even Hillary

Not trying to be a dick, but 54 for one city is a lot. It's not like all of the refugees coming in will just go to 1 city.

It's why I stopped talking about it. I got tired of shouting from inside a cotton-lined, tightly-closed shoe box.

Threads like these are why I've basically stopped talking about politics in general.

I haven't stopped reading, tho-
...and I haven't stopped taking notes.



carry on.

Haus.... I'm done.
Totally done.

I'm not going to do this again, after today. Life's to short to waste time trying to talk to people who won't listen to reason... or facts. It's a 'fool's errand'- and My Parents didn't raise a fool.

Over the past 2-3 years, I've posted (time and again) about My Town, and what a special place it's been- for more than 3 generations of Middle East immigration. I've banged out hundreds of words, thousands upon thousands of keystrokes, describing how we did it... and what a unique success story it has been.

Each time, I get about 3-4 responses. Then, the thread goes back to its usual level of uninformed banality, hyped by info-starved opinion.

I'm over it.
Entirely.

I read all these posts, and then I go out into My Town... and see a very different example of America than what's being portrayed in here by folks who've probably only seen a dozen or so "weird-looking" Middle Easterners on the day they visited Cedar Point.

("Daddy... they dress so 'funny'- what are they?")

My Town, working in accordance to this country's current immigration policy, has been one of the few shining success stories of almost seamless integration of Muslim/ Middle East immigrants into American Life... and it's been going on for more than 100 years. We're kicking the rest of the world's backside with this "issue" -and we've been doing since before I was born.

My Town is one of the reasons I'm proud to be an American. Because we don't just talk it- we actually live it... in deeds.

Every. Single. Day.

On the daily, we put the rest of America to shame.

If you truly have an interest in this issue, I strongly suggest that you start doing your own research. I'll give you a quick and easy starting point, because I'm a teacher... and I can't seem to help myself. After that, you're on your own.


I'm done trying to talk with these football fans about such important geopolitical issues. Only about 5 in every 100 even bother to listen- or try. I've been at this for 10 years, and I've seen almost next to nothing from My Friends. Haus: I'm worn out.


Here's your 'jump-starter.' A first step. After this, you're on your own.

After 30+ years in the business of teaching, I've learned one truly valuable thing: a good teacher can show where information/knowledge can be found... but he can't MAKE a person consume it- even if it's for that person's own good.

Click this link:
New Syrian Refugees In America

This news article was from almost exactly a year ago. My Town has even done more, since the date it aired.

...then, click on the blue 'listen' button.
You don't even have to actually read anything to get the message. Just listen to the story. Please pay particular attention to the audio at the 5:35-6:11 mark. It will tell you all you need to know about the greatness of The American People... and the sentiments behind the inscription at the base of the Statue of Liberty. It will also give you a clue as to how the rest of America/world can handle such a humanitarian crisis.

___________

Haus: You can listen to cable news pundits, you can listen to national news outlets, you can listen to your friends and family who don't know what I know or have actually seen what I have seen with my own eyes... or you can listen to a Real Life Person on this message board whose everyday life flies in the face of all the 'spun crap' you're being force-fed...

-a Real-Life Human Being who has openly exposed himself to an entire online community, to be evaluated and judged as either a stand-up person, from 15 years of participation in this community...
...or a fraud.

The choice is yours to believe what you wish.

I'm done trying to convince People Of Opinion with facts that available for all to see. It's a total waste of my time.

I just turned 60 today.
Sixty.
I have less time for this than I ever have...because I have less time... for EVERYTHING.

Take this for what it's worth.
I've just officially entered the "No B.S. years."



...and with that.... I'm out.
Again.


Carry on, Young Dawgs.

As I said before Clem, I am willing to keep and open mind. I think it is wise to see what happens in Germany, in France, in Sweden, and in Toledo (and many other places). I trust the fact that I am talking about this in some level of detail shows that I have done at least some research on it. I will watch your video in a little bit as well.

Another thing I have said on here before: it's easy to get caught up in news, social media, and just generally what you see on TV and the internet. It is easy to get caught up in the numerous terrorist attacks that have happened throughout Europe. It is easy to get sickened by the mass sexual assaults in Germany and other places, committed predominantly by migrant men. That is not necessarily the reality though, as you have pointed out with your experiences. We're still looking at a relatively small number of events compared to the number of refugees and migrants taken in.

I hope that you stay on here and continue to share your experiences. It is good to have you around and I'm sure others feel it is a welcome break from all of us bickering at each other.

Also, Happy Birthday! Enjoy your day, seriously. Posting about politics does take up too much time and mental energy. No doubt about it. Go out, meet up with some friends, have a beer (or whatever vice you prefer) and go enjoy yourself.

jc - random topic that I had been thinking about before reading Clem's post

Has anyone else noticed a sort of backlash against political correctness? Maybe that's not the best way to ask the question. PCness has long been unpopular with many people, self included. It's kind of hard to articulate what I'm thinking. It's like a backlash against Social Justice Warriors, for lack of a better term, a backlash against those who think only in terms of race or gender or whatever.

I ask because I was thinking about Hillary's "basket of deplorables" comment. Let me make this clear-- I still think she was simply wrong, both in terms of being incorrect and in being unfair to such a large group of people, in labeling half of Trump supporters as deplorables. However, if you think about it, the comment really was not that bad. I would even suggest that it was a little bit funny. If politics weren't so tense and nasty, I would probably get a bit of a laugh out of it.

But she received a backlash from it, not entirely unlike what an actual deplorable would receive from doing something actually deplorable. It's like there is so much built up frustration from people in being only allowed to say certain things, and facing social shaming and perhaps worse from deviating from that, that it's being turned back around. This has probably happened for quite some time now, but it really seems to be picking up lately.

Anyone have any more thoughts on this? Am I making any sense?

You mean the anti-PC crowd getting mad that liberals are saying non PC things?

Yes, it's entertaining

kind of

Maybe the Hillary deplorables comment wasn't the best example. I was thinking more along the lines of the anti-PC crowd* getting mad whenever liberals bring up anything to do with something having to do with PC. if that makes any sense.

* I include myself in the anti-PC crowd. It might seem strange that I make such a big deal out of it, but let's put it this way: I look at it as a roundabout assault on freedom of speech, which the writers of our Constitution thought highly enough of to include in the first amendment of the Bill of Rights. You don't see me harping around about the Constitution too often, that's really not my style.. I'm just pointing it out.

I remember reading a (completely unrelated) essay a while back that had to do with society and how it deals with perceived problems. I want to say it was written by Paul Graham (Ycombinator guy) but I can't find it and I'm not even sure it was him.

The gist of it is something like this: issues come up in society and eventually they are dealt with. They are not always dealt with in the prettiest, most ideal ways. Take smoking cigarettes for example. Smoking cigarettes is disastrous for one's health, may be harmful to others in the vicinity, and at the very least is unpleasant to be around.

Smoking used to be a very popular habit. However, over the course of a hundred years or so, it became heavily taxed, restricted, and outright shunned by many people. I do not like being around smoking, but even I would admit that many people are overly nasty to smokers. That is the 'societal antidote' (the term antidote was used by the author of the essay that I am referencing) to smoking. It's not pretty, but it sort of works.

Apply that to political correctness. What is politically incorrect to say? I would suggest that it is generally things that are hurtful and that are either correct, or that reasonable people can think are correct. Things that are just outrageously wrong would not usually be considered politically incorrect; they are just quickly dismissed and people would rarely get offended by it. There are exceptions of course. I'm not trying to say everything that is considered politically incorrect has a reasonable basis. I don't think that.

Any discussion of politics and such has an aura of political correctness hovering over it. You always have to be on guard with what you say, and many things are just completely off-limits. This is not just a bunch of internet whining-- people sometimes get shamed, doxed, fired, and attacked for saying things that are considered not acceptable. Hence that built up frustration is then turned around whenever a liberal does something non-PC, and sometimes even at merely a vague accusation that others are doing something non-PC.

The whole safe-space bit is ridiculous. Even me, a very liberal twenty-somethin, could never grasp my head around them. I love being in a place with opposing views, and even if they border on wildly inappropriate.

Now...I think there's common decorum we should all follow. Many who get labeled as SJWs or "PC" just want empathy, and understanding for all individuals.

Where I get lost in the debate is when the "anti-pc" crowd rallies around ideas that go counter their own religion, look to stifle the rights of human beings, spout of comments that dehumanizes individuals to advance a platform, ignore basic scientific research, and want to enact ridiculous laws based on religious dogma.

On the other side, a moral superiority is an equally dangerous way to go. It's much like why Galadriel could never harness and control the one ring in Lord of The Rinfs. In a fight for moral superiority, you end up striking down with punitive absolutes.