DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Carson Wentz: After the Fact

Do I regret passing on Wentz? A little bit, but at the same time I don't put all the blame on the FO. Hue and Pep were the ones at his Pro Day, and they seemed to prefer other players at the position. Why they decided to pass I don't know, but the coaches and FO seemed to come to a consensus on the trade down. If the FO drafts players the coaches want and that are successful, that would be a huge step forward. I'm not going to bash the FO this soon when the results seem solid so far.

I was one of the bigger Wentz supporters, but I wasn't against a trade down either. Their was some risk with Wentz. I'm still not sure he'd be the greatest fit with what Hue does, he hasn't completed deep balls down the sidelines. He did lob the one ball to Sproles, but he was wide open and it was after the play had broken down.



Do I think we could have been successful with Wentz? Yes, knowing what I know now. At the time of the draft, we didn't know how fast he would adjust or deal with the speed. I did love his intangibles, and sadly that facet seems to be missing from all the QBs coming up this draft class.

Did we miss on Wentz? You could say that. Could we have done much worse? Yes. We could have traded up for Goff and watched him struggle after we spent additional draft capital on him.

We played it safe a little bit. The FO didn't go all in in their very first NFL draft. They are evaluating their processes before making the "ultimate" investment.

They liked Kessler better than some media outlets and took a shot in the 3rd round. They can see how he performs compared to their projections. I do like his intangibles. His physical tools, while not amazing, might be good enough.

That play captures the difference between a cerebral, athletic qb like Wentz vs just an athletic guy like RGIII.

Wentz could have run on that play. He was going towards the LOS. He made Shazier make a choice. Shazier ran towards Wentz, so the latter flattens his course, and lobs the ball to Sproles. He kept his eyes downfield and did not panic. Great poise and awareness.

Now, compare that w/the play RGIII got hurt on. He left the pocket too early, broke to the right, and had Barndige wide open in the flat, but instead of dumping the ball off to Barnidge, RGIII broke right up the field and was injured after a short gain.

The Browns believed that RGIII was a better option than Wentz. As of right now, they appear to be wrong.

That's very, "it is what it is" and we've had to live with that for so long, waiting to see what might happen someday. Maybe. Hopefully. In reality there is no other choice, is there?

When the new FO was installed, and they talked about drafting right and keeping "our players", many had the impression that perhaps the tide was turning. It could have been so simple too. Get in a good head coach. Tie up the valuable and progressing FAs for a second contract. Draft a top QB, start surrounding him with talent, and shore up the defense through the draft. What's so FREAKING hard about that?

Instead they stripped the team down and brought in a project QB who is made of glass and needed to be taught the fundamentals of pocket passing, from the ground up. And not just the big things either like reading Ds and going through progressions. No, this guy needed to learn how to get out of bounds, throw the ball away, and slide. (We all found out how well those lessons were learned when he decided to lower his shoulder and take on a linebacker to gain an extra yard in a game that was OVER).

While taking on this doomed project, the FO thought it would be a good idea to allow the O-line to be decimated through cheapness and ego. Because, hey, linemen can be had in the mid to late rounds of the draft. Just get more picks and grab a couple. What could be simpler?

They let a potential franchise QB slip through their fingers for draft picks (the single most desperate need for this team since the return, BTW), because they had their project and darn it, the numbers didn't put the guy sitting at #2 in the draft as a top 20 QB (even though he was a proven winner, showed he had brains, had a great internal clock, had the all measurables, put in a great showing at the senior bowl, combine, and had a great pro day).

So they took more draft picks. Picks, that in reality, we have no reason to believe are going to capitalized on in a way that makes the trade more valuable than the QB they let slip. Then they reached on a fifth round QB with questionable arm strength, passing on Dak Prescott, compounding the initial stupidity with further idiocy, then ultimately ridiculousness.

There is almost fifty million in cap space on the books, yet the team is so talent bereft it's probably going to take at least two years to get a roster in place actually capable of playing football. IF they get the picks right. History (or analytics if you prefer), says they won't.

Meanwhile we have to hope that one of these future picks is a franchise QB. But there's no guarantee it will be. They certainly haven't shown any propensity to make the correct choice. They fundamentally haven't shown any ability to recognize the attributes needed. In fact, just the opposite. If you're judging the metrics, lack of durability, diminutive size, and poor arm strength seem to be qualities they prize above all. And, they've stood firm on their poor decision making, not showing any willingness or ability to recognize the fact that they've made these mistakes in the first place! For all we know, we could enter the 2017 season with Kessler as the starter, and RGIII as the backup simply because they haven't had enough opportunity. How AWESOME would that be?

If they do happen to fill out the roster in the next couple of years, the players will need time to get familiar with the systems. These incredibly complicated systems. So what's that, a year? Two? Three? While the dozen rookies and two dozen first and second year players gain experience, and everyone learns their roles and becomes comfortable with all the variations to the point it becomes second nature?

So yeah. Love the "haul", love the potential of the three future nameless, faceless picks. Let's all wait and see.

I feel like this goes unsaid waaay too much.

A lot of people (not nessecarily DTers) are saying the Browns "whiffed" on Wentz and "Passed up on a Franchise QB"

When a lot of those same people were saying before the draft, that he was a risky pick..

Hell as of two weeks before the draft, both top pick QBS were 3rd on their depth charts..

Wentz may turn out to be the guy for Philly, my problem with all of this is that everyone is talking about it after the fact like he was this slam dunk for sure prospect, when he wasn't anywhere close to that.

Very good point on RG3 vs. Wentz mindset on those plays. To be fair though, I think the Browns thought a combo of picks AND RG3 was a better option than just Wentz...and they could STILL end up wrong about that.

You see, that's the difference between us and them.

We have a FO paid millions upon millions of dollars to know the answers to the draft. We as fans don't have access to the resources they do nor is it our profession to figure this out.

If all you're doing is holding our FO to the same standard as our fan base, any of us should be able to do their jobs. I certainly hope that isn't the case. If so, they're WAY overpaid.

You made a good point, too.

Hell, I loved the trade at the time. I wasn't sold on Wentz.

Then again, my job is not on the line and I don't get paid millions of dollars to evaluate talent.

Yeah, excellent point.

It was a great play, I'm not denying that, it just wasn't really the way the play was designed. On the chart it looks the same as a deep vertical route thrown from the pocket. Those Verts are where we've had a lot of our success. I haven't seen a lot of that from Wentz yet. From that chart, it looks like he missed his throws deep down the sideline. I'm trying to somewhat explain to myself why they may have passed on him.

I think I noted Wentz's running to throw was one of the things I liked during the lead up to the draft.

I vaguely remember deep accuracy being a question on Wentz during the lead up to the draft and was saying he hasn't demonstrated great deep accuracy yet in the pros.

There's perception, then there's the reality. Here's few opinions as early the senior bowl, and then later after the combine and/or his pro day:

"NFL Media senior analyst Gil Brandt, with more than a half century of NFL scouting experience, called it one of the best pro days he's ever witnessed and said Wentz reminds him of former Super Bowl MVP Joe Flacco of the Baltimore Ravens. According to Brandt, Wentz completed 63 passes in a 65-throw script, with one overthrow and one drop. Brandt noted the best pro day by a quarterback he's seen came from the Philadelphia Eagles' Sam Bradford, who was the No. 1 overall selection of the St. Louis Rams in the 2010 NFL Draft."

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"I'm more convinced than ever that he's the top quarterback in this draft,'' said Mayock. "He's 6-5, 237 and he's every bit as athletic as Andrew Luck and Cam Newton.''

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Wentz is now the early frontrunner to be the top quarterback selected in April's draft. Saturday was simply the icing on a successful week. He had the NFL scouting community buzzing before he even stepped on the field for his on-field workout.

"I knew once (Wentz) got around the coaches and stuff, they'd eat him up," one veteran scout told USA TODAY Sports, speaking on condition of anonymity for competitive reasons. "This guy's unique. He's just different. And obviously, he's 6-5, 230, and can spin it like a mother."

Link

Accuracy

Best – Carson Wentz
The big-armed quarterback also was the most accurate. He was consistently hitting targets in stride on short, intermediate and deep routes. That's a good combination.

Arm Strength

Best – Carson Wentz and Paxton Lynch (tie)
Wentz's throws had some serious zip. So much so that one bullet on a 12-yard out pattern to the far sideline drew oohs and aahs from everyone in the building. Wentz has a big arm. The Joe Flacco comparisons make some sense.

Mechanics

Best – Carson Wentz
Again, Wentz comes out on top. No wonder he may be the first quarterback selected in the draft. He has a high release point and has his feet and upper body working in harmony. It leads to a smooth throwing motion.

Overall

Best – Carson Wentz
Make it a clean sweep for Wentz. He had a strong day and did especially well throwing the deep ball. He flashed good arm strength, mechanics and accuracy. It was an impressive performance.

Link

With just two months to go until the 2016 NFL Draft, North Dakota State quarterback Carson Wentz is skyrocketing up draft boards, going from a no-name Missouri Valley Conference player to the sudden favorite to be drafted by the Cleveland Browns with the second overall pick.

On Monday, NFL Network analyst Mike Mayock said that he believes Wentz — who won two FCS national championships at NDSU — has a similar ceiling to Indianapolis Colts quarterback Andrew Luck.

That's high praise!

"[W]hen you're 6-5 1/4 and 235 pounds and can move around like he can, and you have great character and the ability to assimilate information quickly, you're going to go very high," Kiper said.

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There's many factors. Wentz being considered a risk because of where he played and the level of competition not the least. Add that no-one, even wentz biggest fan boy, was projecting the sort of instant impact he has shown. . . .

With that said I think this point here is at the absolute root of the decision. More pics = more opportunities to get it right. More opportunities to change the core of a losing team with a losing culture.

I will disagree when you said the browns liked other qb options better. No-one knows that, without a blockbuster trade there is every chance Wentz would have been the pick at #2. Taking Kessler in the third and defending the selection isn't the same as preferring him to Wentz.

Man, I'm depressed.

You should be. So should every Browns fan. That should translate into decreased revenue. That should translate into a willingness to get it right. We'll see. There's always next FREAKING year.

Just some general observations.

The Gil Brandt quote is nice, but I think Tape trumps Pro Days. A QB is supposed to look good without a pass rush performing a script they've been practicing.

As far as Mayock comparing Wentz to Luck, I like Mayock, but his track record at QB is spotty. He liked Gabbert over Newton amongst other questionable takes.

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I liked Wentz, but there were many different takes on him.

He was well liked at the end, but he'd probably had the least amount of time in the spotlight to be picked apart.

I'm pointing out the fallacy that his talent was unrecognizable prior to the draft. He was clearly something special. We clearly needed, and have needed, a top QB prospect. This was virtually a no-brainer. Even if he needed time to develop. The comparisons to Flacco make it especially ironic, considering Hue was in Baltimore when they drafted him. Any bogus justifications of the mistake made by not drafting him is just that, bogus justification. There was no reason to pass on him. None at all. The FO blew it because they didn't know what they were doing. Period.

Like you're not watching the games.

You're still on a message board talking about them.

Crap or get off the pot. The only way to truly extricate yourself from this is to just stop being a fan of the team. No one's going to hurt Jimmy's pocket book. Statements like that are silly.

That is the only choice you have. To be a fan or not. Most people choose the be a fan option and take their anger out on message boards. But it doesn't change the reality one bit. The only way to soothe your souls is to simply stop being a fan.

Ah, the old telling others how to be a fan. How smug.

I don't consider being a fan of the Browns a "choice", it's just what I am. Although I refuse to buy tickets to the games now. I don't pay for the overpriced parking or crappy food, and I don't buy the merchandise. I used to. Every year, I'd try to go to at least one game, even when I lived in L.A. I'd buy new shirts, or jerseys, get a new hat. And hope that maybe this year they'd show the #@#$ up and play some football, maybe get a draft pick right, maybe take a QB.

I've been going through this since before Brian Sipe. Red Right 88 tore my guts out. I was never a Kozar fan but the team gave me hope, until it was crushed by poor coaching with the prevent defense, and solid play by Elway. Then again by The Fumble.

When we hired Belichick, I knew we had something special. The media ate him alive, the fan base hated him for getting rid of their favorite son, but we had something special. I KNEW it. Then Modell and the City of Cleveland made a critical error. They let the team walk. So for five years I waited for them to return. Then waited for them to get some protection for Couch, a real QB. Instead, he was injured out of the league, then it was one cluster#@%& after another.

So here we are. Witnessing one more regime screwing the pooch again and again with inexperience, poor decision making and rampant ego. So it sucks. They suck. In my view they're morons. But I love the Orange and Brown. I alway will.

I'm turning sixty next year, before the season starts. Will it be a winning season? Probably not. Why? Because the FO has it's head up it's ass and blew the first round pick this year, tore the team down, and may not know how to rebuild it. So don't you think I have the right to be pissed off at the probability we won't even have a winning season NEXT YEAR? Three games into this one? If not, too bad. That's my take, and I'm entitled to it whether you like it or not.

Go Browns.

You're torturing yourself. I guess I would say try to look to the positives. Just because the Browns passed on Wentz doesn't mean they won't get their guy. It will likely suck until then but there's nothing we can do about it. And having Haslam blow this thing up will only make matters worse.

We have to hope and have some faith that they will get it turned around. I don't see what the other options are.

The Browns are like a guy wandering in the desert, dying of thirst - we have been looking for a QB for how long? So this guy in the desert stumbled upon a lemonade stand (Wentz, 2016 draft) - finally, something to drink!

"Nah", they said "we wanted iced tea." ... and kept wandering. OIC.

I don't believe I'm torturing myself, I just hate the product they've fielded, I hate that for so many years hope has been dashed by so many different missteps, poor decisions and $#!%%y luck. So I don't pay for the privilege to get screwed by poor product.

I don't believe we should blow things up. I do believe we have a decent coach, in spite of the early boneheaded play calls, and his complete miscalculation of the QB position. I think the FO can grow, but they do need to grow. I believe the first step would be to admit, at least to themselves, that they #@&%ed up.

I don't believe we have to have faith either. They haven't earned it. So they don't deserve it. They deserve, possibly, the time they need to show us they can get it right. And that's all I'm willing to do. Until they prove they can get it right, I won't spend a dollar. I'll spend my time, three hours a week watching, and whatever spare time I put into this board, I may listen to stupid radio chatter while I drive, but that's it. Beyond that, I live my life, enjoy my lifestyle, love my family, enjoy the Indians, and hope the Cavs repeat. But right now, screw the FO. They're idiots. Until they can prove differently.

I think the Flacco comp is just based on size and playing FCS. Flacco showed deep accuracy which fits Hue's run and deep play action philosophy. Wentz has a bit more backyard element to his game. He needs/needed to improve his deep accuracy and pocket passing in rhythm.

I think the Luck's upside comp works better. But, he wasn't there yet. Upside is great, but it's hard to bet on when your team has a lot of other questions.

I think he will improve those areas, but he hadn't really shown it on film.

Even if you didn't evaluate him as a walk-on starter, you had to recognize the tangibles. Interviews would have helped clarify some of the intangibles. I don't like comparisons anyway, as a rule. I believe everyone, and every situation is different. But you had to recognize that Wentz was, at least a potential, future starter. Passing on him may have been the right call for 27 or 28 other teams, certainly not for the Browns. They could not afford to pass on a guy with his size and skill set, in a division full of solid QBs, two of them Super Bowl winners, given the Browns' history at the position. Regardless of whether they had signed RGIII, and regardless of their ridiculous valuation. They didn't need a crystal ball, they just needed to do the right thing. For some truly unknown set of reasons, they couldn't. We know the excuses, we can only guess at the reasons. My guess is ineptitude, ego, and inexperience.

I'm not really questioning your conclusion, but your argument sounds like it would have just as easily had us Draft the next Jamarcus Russell.

Maybe he interviewed poorly with Hue. Sometimes people just don't connect. I don't really think Carson would tank an interview, but agents not wanting their players to go to Cleveland wouldn't really surprise me either.

I don't know what exact system they have in place as far as all the parameters, but it seems to have worked at other positions fairly well. Maybe they'll tweak the system for QB's if Wentz's success continues.

We can't afford to pass on the next Jamarcus Russell, not if he projects as Russell projected. There is no one in this FO or coaching staff smart enough to read that future. They've already proven as much. I guess that woul be my point.

Could of would of should of , in the past move on people, we should have took Mcnabb instead of Couch, we can do this all day.

I only remember Board members wanting to trade down and pick up more average players. We have wanted a Francise QB since Bernie. We finally get a chance at one and what do we, trade down.I think it was Vers that listed all his attributes. BTW Vers is the only one to man up and admit he was wrong. Then we had to listen to how he looked good but that was against The Browns and Bears, just wait till he plays Pittsburg after he kicked Pittsburg ass now we hear about deep accuracy. Lets just admit Hue or the FO blew it big time.

I wanted Goff and if not him then Wentz. EO ( I think ) was Wentz all the way. I think Hue is positioning us to take Watson. I haven't been real impressed with him so far. Haven't seen kizer of ND or Kayaa of the U. Hue had better hit or he should be toast. Philly seemed to know something we didn't. They gave up a lot to get what they wanted. We wimped out and traded down.

U guys make this way to complicated ...

If Wentz was deemed a FRANCHISE QB by either Hue or the FO there's NO AMOUNT OF PICKS worth passing .. NONE ,,,,, QB is by far the most IMPORTANT position in football ... And there is not a ton of talent at that position anymore and THERE HARD TO FIND ... There basically GOLD ...

The Iggles saw something in Wentz that they were willing to give us a REAL NICE HAUL ... If Wentz turns into a FRANCHISE QB unless we find one next year with the pick they gave us .. LANDSLIDE VICTORY for them ... THERE JUST SIMPLY TO HARD TO COME BY ..

If he doesn't turn into a franchise QB and we get even one pro bowler or 3 or 4 above average players .. Then we WIN THE TRADE IN A LANDSLIDE ..

There's a reason why the Lambs and Phili gave up a TON to move up for a SHOT at getting there QB .. It's not like this is an exact science ... And guys .. IT HAPPENS ALOT and there's a reason for that .. Go take a look at let me know the last time a team gave up the HAUL we got for ANY OTHER POSITION PLAYER .... You'll be looking a LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG TIME ...

The jury is far from in on what type of NFL QB he will be .. The EXTREMELY SMALL sample size we have now looks like he has a shot to be ... He looks GREAT so far ... But its WAY WAY WAY TO EARLY at this point ..

My biggest concern right now is that Wentz continues to play this good all year and next year the Harvard Boys feel compelled to reach for a QB next year ..

And hopefully we can TRUST Hue like he's asked us to .. And at the end of the day .. We have no other choice anyhow .. *L* ..

I just absolutely despise trading down with a passion. You earn those top picks so freaking man up and take them. This constant trading down is absolute BS and is really short changing the fans that are loyal to this garbage dump. How long do we all have to wait to even see a mediocre team?? This team redefines the word loser.

I haven't seen everything, and very little of Kayaa, but right now I'd take Kizer over Watson hands down. And I while I think he has a way to go before he's a starter, he looks a LOT better than Watson, based on what I've seen comparatively in a few key areas like reading the field, throwing on the move, deep ball accuracy and pocket presence. JMHO

I don't understand posts like this one. Couch and McNabb are out of the league. The guys who drafted them aren't around.

I think it is relevant to talk about what is happening currently.

Wait..........I get it now. You get upset if anyone questions the FO at all, so you don't want us to talk about it. That's fine..........just don't open the thread.

Believe me, son................this is going to be talked about for a long, long time.

How am I making things complicated, boss?

I'm saying the Browns blew it. Sounds pretty freaking simple to me.

Boss ... Glad to see u got the positions right ... *L* ..

I didn't mean U .. Lots of others ..

You problem is a RUSH TO JUDGEMENT ... It's way to EARLY to say we BLEW it ..

And u know better than to make FINAL JUDGEMENTS this quick .. Like I said ... He's looked GREAT so far ... But as u well know .. ITS WAY TO EARLY ...

Look boss..............I haven't rushed to judgement. Try reading my entire commentary throughout the thread before you make comments about what I am doing. I clearly stated it was early.

It blows my mind that people don't think we should discuss football topics on a football message board. WTH?????????

Of course, it's early.......but, it's a football message board. WTH are we supposed to do? Post stats all the time and the standings?

Y'all worry too much about what other people post. Post what the hell you think and stop criticizing others so freaking much. And that isn't really to you............it's to all---y'all.

I,m going to watch Watson right now and I have the U and ND recorded so I'll finally get a look at the other guys. We seriously have to hit on a QB next year.

The Browns loved RGIII. They loved Goff. They did not like Wentz. They preferred Kessler over Prescott and Jones.

I love Hue as a HC, but I question how well these guys evaluate qbs. Hue was the same guy who gave up a lot to trade for Carson Palmer.

It's not set in stone, but I am a bit concerned w/their ability to evaluate the qb position.

Ugg... I'll bite for no other reason than I'm bored.

The problem with guys like you and others who are at times hyper critical of the FO is that you make these statements and form conclusions as if context has no relevance.

If you want to make the argument that the Eagles roster is equal to ours and therefor it's a more reasonable assumption that Wentz would be performing right about the same... then go ahead. Make that argument. I'm fairly confident that you'd be one of the few to argue that side. But don't be lazy and send this BS about me defending the FO at all costs. I've never done any such thing.

Let's say we took Wentz at 2. CalDawg suggested we should have taken him even if we determined he needed time to develop. Apparently the Eagles weren't quick to start him either (though I do know they had Bradford at the time to consider in their decision).

But for as cynical as you can be, you honestly don't think this FO would be lambasted if we came out and Hue said the plan was to sit him his rookie season? As soon as the announcement was made these threads would be lit up with posters trashing the FO for drafting a guy at #2 who wasn't ready to play Week 1 or apparently couldn't beat out RG3.

You said yourself you weren't completely sold on Wentz originally. Had we taken him and the FO announced he was sitting, you wouldn't have felt on some level that they whiffed or wasted the pick? Or at least entertained the belief that maybe he was taken too high?

As for others letting me get away with "silly" posts.. it could be any number of reasons:

1) My posts are found to be mundane and uninteresting. It's not worth their time.

2) I'm disliked more than you and am the #1 Ignored poster on DT so they never see my posts

3) They take my posts for what they are, a contribution of context to the discussion and don't see it as defending the FO at all costs and there for they have no reason to chastise me for defending the FO at all costs

4) My posts are so thought provoking that some have become Enlightened and metaphysically traveled beyond this planar existence

5) I'm known as the Mr. Spock of DT... my logic is infallible.

Cool. Let us know what you see and what your impressions are, if you don't mind.

LOL............I support this FO and Hue. I have stated over and over and over that they deserve at least 3-4 years before any decisions are made.

The problem is guys like you are not objective and defend the FO at all costs and criticize other posters for expressing honest opinions.

I try and evaluate each move based on its own merits. It's called honesty and objectivity.

You are one of the guys who displays neither characteristic, thus your takes have no substance.