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Our best D linemen is on IR. There's no telling when he'll ever be healthy enough to be counted on every Sunday.
I hate our QB situation so much, but I have to be honest and say that I hate our defensive lack of talent so much worse.
I would seriously be considering the best DE or best MLB on the board with our first pick. And see what Horton can do with a real squad.
He's given us a top ten defense before. I have zero reason to believe he can't do it again with some real talent.
Last edited by Swish; 10/11/16 05:18 PM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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This is why the secondary sucks...
SS...TJ Ward...2014...Broncos starter
CB...Buster Skrine...2015..Jets starter
FS...T.Gipson...2016...Jags starter
The free agents that Haslam's front office kicked to curb in the last 3 years. These 3 plus Haden might be a better defensive backfield that we now have.
GM strong...
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Aside from the lacking talent, you're good with Horton? Other than occasionally lining-up Kindred or Campbell at deep safety [I won't call it FS], yes, I am okay w/what he is doing. Cal, it's tough when you have a terrible secondary and no true pass rushers. Heck, some of the dudes we got off of the streets and practice squads look better than the guys we drafted in terms of pass rushers. I am not including Nassib in that. He has looked pretty good as a pass rusher at times. Anyway..........terrible secondary and poor pass rushers spells disaster. I understand your point and agree we have issues in the secondary and at pass rush, so we'll see. If Horton stays, and even if he doesn't, I expect the FO to address those areas in the off season. Then we'll see if there's drastic improvement in ppg allowed. Honestly, I hope that puts and end to the question. Getting back to it though, I still wonder how long Hue puts up with it. I wonder if Horton makes it through the season.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Good post. And Cal........I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong. Just friendly debate.
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Our team sucks. This was expected. We have little talent because of horrible drafting and much of the talent we do have is very young.
Same question, who stays, who goes? Meder, Shelton & Nassib - Ogbah, Davis, Kirksey, Shobert - Haden, Taylor, Poyer & Campbell? This is strictly my opinion on the talent level on those players. Who the hell knows what the Browns think or do and frankly my evaluations and those of many on here have beaten theirs for years now that little trust in their "expertise" should be expected. I'll start with Poyer. Probably the worst starting FS in the league. He must be one hell of a dude (and he probably is) that he keeps surviving regime changes and getting more and more playing time. FS play around the league is down for years now, so to be among the worst is really, really bad. I'd say FS is the biggest pure talent need on defense. On the DL, there's not one above AVG 3 down player. Thank god Shelton at least has stepped up defending the run, as last year he was completely useless. That said, he's still useless vs the pass, so that makes him a rotational, one dimensional DL. Good at what he does, but limited since he's bad vs pass and it's a passing league now, so.... Nassib has shown promise and is one I have a little faith in to become an above AVG 3 down player in time. Meder is diem a dozen rotational DL. Cooper is the pass rushing version of Shelton, but even more inconsistent. On paper the idea is to "platoon" them, but hasn't worked out well yet. LB: good god, where to start? Kirksey might be the most overrated Browns player right now. He's not physical enough and not much of a blitzer. His best use would be that of a nickel LB covering RB/TE on passing downs. As a 3 down starter, he's well below average. Davis might be the closest thing to average in terms of talent, but I don't expect him to care about this team enough to reach his ceiling. Think Paul Kruger effectiveness. The rooks, Ogbah's and Schobert's tape from college was pretty bad, so was Orchard's, so I'm not surprised that they suck and we don't have any kind of pass rush. DB: I like both Campbell and Kindred and TJ Ward-like in the box SS. Both are physical and good tacklers, but they suck in coverage. They looks worse than they are because of bad LB and FS play. They have to do stuff they shouldn't and wouldn't be asked to do on a more talented roster. I actually think our CBs might be the strength of this D, lol. Haden can be good, he's inconsistent, but still not the problem. Not much of a leader though, so he's not helping there. J.Taylor is better than T.Williams was last year, though that's not saying too much and the Buddy-C guy looks like a decent find. Overall as a group, the CBs might be the closest thing to average the defense has to offer. To recap: our front 7 absolutely sucks and our FS is worse. There's your problem. Now go root for the Indians  I appreciate the assessment, looks like you're advocating changes at almost every position. Maybe that's the answer. What's your view of the DC?
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I said this before the season started, but evidently no one paid any attention to it, but Horton dumps his entire defense on his players, and lets them learn it as they play it. He doesn't do a little here, and then a little more there. He lets the players make mistakes early, and corrects them in tape sessions.
That is why the defense got better later in the year when he was here before. The players start figuring it out around mid-season.
Obviously that doesn't work well when you are changing coaches every year ..... but the players should know the whole defense before long, and should make fewer and fewer mistakes as the year progresses.
Now, if there is no defensive improvement, then I could see Horton being in jeopardy. However his track record is that his defenses get better as the players figure it all out.
Interesting take. We'll see how long Hue toughs it out.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Probably long enough to get fired.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Our team sucks. This was expected. We have little talent because of horrible drafting and much of the talent we do have is very young.
Same question, who stays, who goes? Meder, Shelton & Nassib - Ogbah, Davis, Kirksey, Shobert - Haden, Taylor, Poyer & Campbell? Meder- Dime a dozen backup. Good worker, limited talent. Replaced Shelton- Working into his body, becoming a force in the run. Future Starter Nassib- Young, was injured, works really hard and has freakish size. Consistently in the backfield. Given time, could be a stud. Ogbah: Obviously the team will not give up on him soon. His tape is hot and cold, but has all the physical talents. Probably a starter Davis: Dime a dozen. Horrid in space, poor in pass coverage. Replaced. Kirksey: Getting better, seems solid but unspectacular. Could benefit being next to a star. Starter. Shobert: ST player. Forced to start due to lack of depth at the position. Huge hole. Replaced. Haden: Solid. Overpaid. Not much more to say. Starter. Taylor: He's okay, but he's not great. Makes great plays then gets absolutely toasted. I would say replaced. Poyer: God Awful. Needs immediate replacement. Campbell: Hits hard, really good in the box, has no clue in the passing game. His physical talents are there. I think between him and Kindred, we are set at the ITB Safety. Bare minimum, and being generous, that's at least 4 that have no business being in the NFL, many in key spots. You could easily add Kirksey and Ogbah to that list and I would not argue too much. So, yeah, give him more time. Now if we are like Jacksonville, who clearly has talent but the defense still under performs, then we will need to question coaching ability.
you had a good run Hank.
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Probably long enough to get fired. This would be really funny if it weren't so sad and possibly true.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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It sure didn't take long......
Ogbah, Kindred, Nassib - all rookies. As I said on another thread yesterday, the high expectations put on rookies by some posters is misguided, perhaps a product of the instant gratification culture we live in.
As far as Horton goes, I dunno know if he's a good DC or not, or just average, but I think firing him just for the sake of it, considering we've started a rebuild and just started with a new scheme, would be a head-scratcher. And if he's that incompetent, why'd we hire him in the first place?
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Our team sucks. This was expected. We have little talent because of horrible drafting and much of the talent we do have is very young.
Same question, who stays, who goes? Meder, Shelton & Nassib - Ogbah, Davis, Kirksey, Shobert - Haden, Taylor, Poyer & Campbell? \ We don't know enough about many of these guys (Ogbah, Shelton, Nassib, Schobert, and Campbell). Chances are that most of them will settle in the league average range, with one or two becoming above-average or good. Meder, Davis, Kirksey, and Taylor are league average starters. They have a place on the team, but as players who play sparingly (not every snap or the majority of the snaps). Haden is the only player you mentioned that has performed at a high level for a sustained period and he has been incredibly inconsistent. Poyer is bad. We have no depth.
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Vers,
Maybe you could ask all these so called D-coords on this board to name the player on our defense that could start on ANY of the teams in our division???? That answer would be NONE. Then ask them, other than Haden, what other player on our D has been CLOSE to a pro bowl level?? And while we are at it, name the game where our 3 or 4 down lineman dominated the opposing line???
So we have a lack of talent on the lines, maybe OK linebackers and a secondary full of no names but we should have held NE to under 25 pts!! OR even some of the other teams we have played?? If Horton would have pulled that off, he would have been a magician!!
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NDC -
I'll go with:
Haden on the Stilers and Bungles .. Not cause Joe's any good .. I think he is WAY OVERRATED by most on here .. Just there secondaries are just that bad ...
Shelton on the Bungles ...
That may be about it ... *L* ...
WOW ... Cinci and Pitt have bad D's and we still have no one that could start for them NOW ... We have a few guys that may be able to start for them after they get a year under there belts ...
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Diam,
OK.. Haden, I'll give you that one.
Shelton does not start on the bungles. He is playing a bit better this year but starting on another team in our division = not so fast. But that one we can "hold" until the end of the season.
But 2 out of 11. And our "No Names on D" is not like that 72 Dolphins "No Name" defense!
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But 2 out of 11. And our "No Names on D" is not like that 72 Dolphins "No Name" defense! Most of them are in their first or second year.
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It's more then just sucking.
You may be looking at the 1st 0-16 Browns team in history.
Your crazy if you think Hue survives an 0-16 season. Haslam will can everyone including Sashi and Depodesta. This whole thing has the ripings of a complete disaster. Even Mangini"s teams were not this bad.
I'm telling you there zero excuse for 0-16 if it happens Hue and Our FO will be gone. Regardless of circumstance 0-16 is simply unacceptable. We will be left with little choice but to part ways, and start another new train wreck.
How we end up in the messes is just beyond me.
When jimmy is im not trying to stir things up here, I see the worst pile of dung I have ever seen as a Browns fan since 1980. This atrocious even Shurmur, Mangini, Crennell coached teams were not this bad...he'll even Terry Robiskie fielded a more competent group of scrubs. I think many of you really have no idea how bad things actually are for the Browns...but.....you are gonna be up to speed shortly...yup.....this is so gonna be an epic crap show if a season.. Mangini's teams weren't this bad? We had vets on that D and Mangini's first game Peterson came to town and raped our defense. The Bills game, we had completed two passes at halftime. I believe the total for the game was three. Yes, we won. 6-3 and the final FG was off a muffed punt, after we gained zero yards on three straight plays. We are scoring, and aside from a game against a ticked off Patriots team the defense hasn't played THAT bad. They are not great for sure, but gues what man.... This is season ONE of a COMPLETE rebuild. I wouldn't be surprised to see JT traded before the deadline. I'm not predicting it but it woldn't surprise me. What about this season has surprised you? You thought we were going to be better? If you're going to hold Horton(who had a pretty damned good D out in Zona) responsible for this defense then you've got to hold Hue responsible too. So I take it you want to clean house? It amazes me how quick you guys jump ship. This is a rebuild year, we are on our fifth QB we have LOTS of first and second year guys starting. Our #1 pick Coleman is injured. Nasssib has missed time and is playing hurt. NE game was just game five season one. That's it.
#BlackLivesMatter #StopAsianHate
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gmstrong -----------------
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Fire Horton? The talent, and I'd use that term very loosely, is near non-existent on defense.
I'm actually surprised we are only giving up around 30pts per game.
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Man, 5 games in and we're deciding who needs replaced already.  I am perfectly willing to wait this year out and see how things go. This team was never going to win a bunch of games. I said, before the season started, that we wouldn't win a single game in the 1st half of the year. That may wind up being true, but I am more optimistic right now than I was coming into this season. I would add that there have been plenty of players who struggled, or did not play to expectations as rookies, and who turned out just fine ..... and there are plenty of players who started out like a house on fire, only to crash and burn. We have youth everywhere, and as much as we hate to hear it, it is going to take time.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I`m good with Baker... Playoffs is good enough for me.
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I`m good with Baker... Playoffs is good enough for me.
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I just can't see them making any changes until after the season ... at the EARLIEST. If for no other reason than it's a bad look on the franchise to other potential coaches
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Fix 2 of our biggest defensive problems in Round One.
1) Myles Garrett TEXAS A&M. Helps everyone in the front 7 being doubled himself.
2) Jamaal Adams LSU. Pray Philly comes down to earth.
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Diam,
OK.. Haden, I'll give you that one.
Shelton does not start on the bungles. He is playing a bit better this year but starting on another team in our division = not so fast. But that one we can "hold" until the end of the season.
But 2 out of 11. And our "No Names on D" is not like that 72 Dolphins "No Name" defense! U must not have seen the Bungles play yet .. There a HORRIBLE FOOTBALL TEAM ... They lost so much talent on O and I have no clue what happend to there D but they literally STINK .... There getting gauged on the ground .. And I mean GAUGED ... Against Denver they were playing 8 in the box to stop the running game and got TOASTED through the air .. There other games .. RAOSTED on the ground ... Shelton could start for them for much the same reason that Haden could start for the other two teams .. Not cause ur guys are good but because the talent at those positions in Cinci and Pitt are VOID OF TALENT ,... AND we have a few rooks and 2nd year guys that in a year could quite possibly start for Cinci or Pitt .... Nassib being the main one .... Although I think he is given more credit than he deserves at this point ... I am intrigued by him .. But no where's near sold ... This D is TALENTLESS when compared to most other NFL D's ... There's no denying that ..
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It's more then just sucking.
You may be looking at the 1st 0-16 Browns team in history.
Your crazy if you think Hue survives an 0-16 season. Haslam will can everyone including Sashi and Depodesta. This whole thing has the ripings of a complete disaster. Even Mangini"s teams were not this bad.
I'm telling you there zero excuse for 0-16 if it happens Hue and Our FO will be gone. Regardless of circumstance 0-16 is simply unacceptable. We will be left with little choice but to part ways, and start another new train wreck.
How we end up in the messes is just beyond me.
When jimmy is im not trying to stir things up here, I see the worst pile of dung I have ever seen as a Browns fan since 1980. This atrocious even Shurmur, Mangini, Crennell coached teams were not this bad...he'll even Terry Robiskie fielded a more competent group of scrubs. I think many of you really have no idea how bad things actually are for the Browns...but.....you are gonna be up to speed shortly...yup.....this is so gonna be an epic crap show if a season.. The Browns will win a few games this year. There's 3 months of football left. You're right: there is no excuse for an 0-16 season but I'm not worried it will happen if for no other reason than the statistical improbability of it. This is, so far, a bad football team analogous with an expansion team. But even expansion teams win a game or 2. Now, it seems to me reasonable to expect 2 - 4 wins to be our ceiling, so we agree on the sorry state of the team currently, but I would not be surprised to see a turn around toward a respectable record. Not betting it will happen, but there are so many variables in football I'm confident this early that it could happen. KC was 1-5 last year. I'm sure there was doom and gloom and fire everybody talk and they won a playoff game....if we're still winless by Thanksgiving I'll start to think (not worry) about 0-16. As to the OP's question, hopefully not one week longer, but "not putting up with it" doesn't have to mean firing; it can mean working together with Horton to continue to coach up a young group. Average's get skewed early in the year; the back to back to back turnovers by the Browns late in the Washington game made it easier for the other guys to pile on points, as one example.
Kizer rhymes with Kosar.
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Spirit - Zona was many moons ago ... He's done NOTHING since .. Major underachiever by all accounts ..
I remember when we hired him ... We all felt so fortunate we got him and were giddy we had him for a year cause most figured he'd get a HC job the following year after being so close that year ...
Well ... Now he's not even mentioned as an elite DC anymore and hasn't had even a sniff for a HC job ..
NO WAY SHOULD HE BE FIRED NOW .... But the guy hasn't been good in his last couple of spots .. I was shocked we hired him .. I completely understand why he's not getting fired (cause he shouldn't be) ... What I don't understand is why he was hired in the first place ..
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This is why the secondary sucks...
SS...TJ Ward...2014...Broncos starter
CB...Buster Skrine...2015..Jets starter
FS...T.Gipson...2016...Jags starter
The free agents that Haslam's front office kicked to curb in the last 3 years. These 3 plus Haden might be a better defensive backfield that we now have. This. We all know how poorly the Browns have drafted in the first round over the last six years and 3 regimes. But we've actually drafted pretty decent in the second through fifth and developed one or two UDFA. Problem is with the exception of Bitonio, they're all on other teams. Add Shwartz and Sheard to the list...when Farmer let TJ Ward walk just to sign an older, slower, smaller, more expensive version of him (Whitner)...well I thought it was a poor move.
Last edited by GwarriorScumDawg; 10/12/16 07:40 AM.
Kizer rhymes with Kosar.
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I'm sorry but where are you getting your information from?
last year he had the Titans defense ranked 12th overall.
they were 7th against the pass at 229.9 yards a game
they were 18th against the run at 112.3 yards a game
sorry but what you're saying and what's actually happening isn't adding up whatsoever.
Last edited by Swish; 10/12/16 07:36 AM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I remember fine. And personnel are poor. But my focus is good coaches will try to adapt and help players by improving what they are asked to do or, consider, do something differently to try to compensate. That something different might include stop doing what is getting you beaten regularly. What might happen? Lose a game?
Our cushions, our corners, our pressure, our ILB cover assignments, do not seem to change much and haven't been effective enough IMO. Personnel or scheme? I don't think they exclude each other where you pick just one. I think Hue's scrutiny of how we attack is warranted and overdue given late losses and blown leads. Try to stop some of the bleeding. Expecting different outcomes while persisting in what gets us beat is craziness. Our coaches may be able to compensate better than we have. Nobody gets a pass when losing. Players I agree, we need better. Until then, this demands scrutiny as well.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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I won't argue that one ... but where are you getting your information from? I WATCH football games ... Apearantly all U do is read stats ... And this is a classic case of why: STATS ARE FOR ...... WELL ... Those that matter know ...  last year he had the Titans defense ranked 12th overall. Yup ... That makes them good ... I mean .. Not that it matters or nothing ... But, what measure is that ... Is that yards per game, points per game ... WHAT IS IT?? Any shot u could give it some ACTUAL MEANING????
they were 7th against the pass at 229.9 yards a game
they were 18th against the run at 112.3 yards a game
Can u tell me what those STATS ACTUALLY MEAN???? Maybe they were giving up LOTS OF FIRST HALF POINTS every week and they couldn't score many points so teams QUIT PASSING IN THE 2ND HALF ... Kinda like NE did with us last week ... Any clue what the yards per play were or yards per pass were?? ... IS THAT IMPORTANT??? I don't see anywhere in your STATS one that SOME CONSIDER IMPORTANT ... POINTS ALLOWED??? Or doesn't that matter in football ... *L* .. STATS ARE FOR ........... And this is exactly why .... U can manipulate them to tell any story u want ... If u want .. I can go grab ... What did u use .. 3 stats .. I can go grab 3 stats that show they were a HORRIBLE DEFENSE .. Wanna bet? .. I know I can .. Cause that's why STATS ARE FOR ..... Well .... And MOST IMPORTANTLY ... If he did such a GREAT JOB LAST YEAR why was he allowed to leave? .. Last I looked .. Good assistants just aren't allowed to leave ... Go on back and find some more stats cause stats are all that matters ... 
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I'm sorry but where are you getting your information from?
last year he had the Titans defense ranked 12th overall.
they were 7th against the pass at 229.9 yards a game
they were 18th against the run at 112.3 yards a game
sorry but what you're saying and what's actually happening isn't adding up whatsoever.
I'm not a giant Horton hater, but I vaguely remember LeBeau kind of taking over the Titan's D last year.
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
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they were 16th in yards per play.
which is CLEARLY an upgrade from our 30th ranked cleveland team that same year.
so you watched every single Titans game last year? i have a hard time believing that.
points per game was a problem.
yet surprise surprise, STILL better than us.
Horton is an upgrade from O'neil. period.
so you can cry and whine and take your personal shots about me being sorry, it doesn't change the fact that i'm talking pure football, and Horton is way better than anything you're saying.
So he's given us a top ten defense ALREADY his first go around here.
so he isn't the best. but to imply he doesn't get the job done is false and spreading misinformation.
Last edited by Swish; 10/12/16 08:14 AM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,146
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,146 |
This is why the secondary sucks...
SS...TJ Ward...2014...Broncos starter
CB...Buster Skrine...2015..Jets starter
FS...T.Gipson...2016...Jags starter
The free agents that Haslam's front office kicked to curb in the last 3 years. These 3 plus Haden might be a better defensive backfield that we now have. This. We all know how poorly the Browns have drafted in the first round over the last six years and 3 regimes. But we've actually drafted pretty decent in the second through fifth and developed one or two UDFA. Problem is with the exception of Bitonio, they're all on other teams. Add Shwartz and Sheard to the list...when Farmer let TJ Ward walk just to sign an older, slower, smaller, more expensive version of him (Whitner)...well I thought it was a poor move.
His knowledge of what it takes to build a winning football team is on display every week. Every time Haslam makes a change in his management and coaching, Haslam sets a new direction, rather than finding people who fit a mold that he lives by..the man has no core values when it comes to football.
Obviously Haslam does not believe in resigning his own players, even if they are among the best at their position in the NFL.
It's obvious that there are other values that Haslam "believes in" that have more to do with money and little to do with building a winning franchise.
Haslam's experience is in "business"...dollars and cents...Jimmy Haslam doesn't know how to build a winning football team and he is hiring management to run it for him, who seem to agree with his business views. He is not hiring management based on their football experience.
The Harvard boys have created more holes on the team than they have filled and as long as management continues to operate in this fashion..it will be a long time before the Browns are any good.
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
LOL...................this thread has dissolved into a thread that is similar to the presidential threads in the EE forum.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,146
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,146 |
vers...just responding to a new member who responded to something I posted.
It is not Horton's fault that the Browns pass defense was shredded for 400 yds last week. There are so many needs on the defense and now we have more needs created on offense...thanks to the boys.
There are too many holes on this team to single out any specific coach and blame that coach for the failures of the franchise over the last 5 yrs or so.
Last edited by mac; 10/12/16 08:27 AM.
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
I agree w/you that blaming the coaching staff is stupid. However, we all knew this was the direction the FO was going and that the losses were going to mount.
It's too early to say if their plan stinks.
I think there are holes in the plan, but I also think they need time to implement the plan.
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
Swish - *LOL* ... There was a PROBLEM with POINTS??? ...
Ummmmm ... Is there really any need to continue that convo?? ..
*LOL* ... Last I looked ... POINTS WERE FAIRLY IMPORTANT ...
I said he SHOULDN'T BE FIRED ... Did u miss that part cause of your hatred of me being right? ..
Never compared him to O'Niel .. Not sure where that came from ... For what it's worth, I do agree with U on that one ...
Did u also miss the part where I said HORTON HAS NOTHING TO WORK WITH HERE ...
Cause u seem to be making me out to have said a lot of things that I actually said the EXACT OPPOSITE OF ...
I guess that's what happens when u have nothing else on your side but to belittle the one on the other side of the debate as U ...
Then again .. Apearantly in your world POINTS GIVEN UP aren't that big a deal ... *LOL* ..
STATS ARE FOR ..........
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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Somebody has to look bad when you are tanking a season.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481 |
when you need to establish a baseline for any sort of argument. something that you seem to struggle with. there is absolutely a point in continuing the convo. as points allowed still isn't the end all/be all. for you to imply that means you are even taking your own advice. which is funny, if not sad. it doesn't take into account if the defense had to work with a short field from: punt returns kick off returns or turnovers from the offense on their own side of the field. so for you to claim that stats aren't everything, yet turn around and think the conversations ends at the STAT of points allowed does nothing but prove you're a hypocrite. have a good day.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,405
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,405 |
Somebody has to look bad when you are tanking a season. Yeah, it's the fans for actually attending haha Although, last game was FULL of Pats fans
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
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