DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns 2007 Offensive Breakdown

I’m attempting to give a Brown’s breakdown now for a couple of reasons. One--someone on the board asked me to in a PM, and two--there has been a lot of talk recently about how we have upgraded so much in regards to talent and that RAC needs to win now or be fired.

Most of you probably won’t agree w/a lot of my evaluations. I’ve been known to be on the pessimistic or realistic side, depending on how you want to portray me. I say I’m more of a realist and I point to the Brown’s record each year as proof. Enough of that and on to the evaluations.

Note: Try and remember this evaluation is for the 2007 season. I might project into the future a few times, but by and large, this evaluation is for this upcoming season. You’ll notice this right away in the QB section. *L*

Quarterbacks:
At this point in time, the Browns have one of the very worst set of quarterbacks in the entire NFL. There isn’t any experience amongst the group, w/Frye’s 18 games started leading the way. Each qb has their own flaws and not one of them can be considered “the guy.” At this point, the Browns do not know who their starter will be in 2007.

Charlie: He is not a practice player and because this is an open competition there is no certainty that he will start. Charlie has some strengths: mobility, gamer, & toughness. He also has some liabilities: might have trouble reading defenses and coverages [although that is hard to tell because of the poor route running],.accuracy, and experience. I didn’t list arm strength in either category as I don’t think it is a positive or a negative. Charlie might not win the starting job, but if he does, he will give us the best chance to win more games in 2007.

Anderson: I do not like immobile quarterbacks. They kill an offensive line, although I do have to say that last year’s line preferred having DA in, because they knew where he would be. A lot of people rave about DA’s arm. It’s strong, but it is not a cannon and frankly, arm strength is overrated. He is even less accurate than Charlie and if he wins the starting gig, it won’t last.

The Mighty Quinn: I don’t think he is going to be ready this year, but that won’t stop many of you from bitching enough until the Browns relent. BQ was not the Brown’s best pick this year, but when it is all said and done, this will be the pick that categorizes Savage. I think BQ is very intelligent and I think he is a willing student. I also think he struggles w/accuracy at times because his mechanics falter under pressure, both mentally and physically. He has a pretty good arm when his mechanics are sound. He made great decisions in college, but I think playing that cupcake schedule will prove to be a hindrance to him. ND did play some tough games and BQ looked pretty bad in almost all of them. Most of his stats were accumulated against teams like Army, and William, Peter, Paul & Mary. I do NOT think he should play this year.

Summary: This is a very poor group that is by far the worst in the division and one of the worst in the entire NFL. They give the Browns little chance to win consistently. They might pull some games off, but over the long haul……..their weaknesses will cost you many games. And considering QB is the most important position on the field, the Browns will be fighting an uphill battle the entire year.

Running Backs:
I’m thinking the unit as a whole will be better this year than the preceding year. Not by much, but we take what we can get.

Lewis: I am pretty excited about the Lewis signing. I think he is an definite upgrade over Droughns. I think JL is going to work very hard to reestablish himself as a quality back. I also think the injuries and the jail time hindered him. I hear he is working very hard and is in great shape. I don’t care how sick you guys get about him having great feet, but he really does have great feet. They are very quick and he is not a long strider, which is big for a RB. He also has good cutback ability and can turn the speed on when he breaks into the secondary.

Wright: He is a notch below most second running backs. I hate saying that because I like the kid. He works hard, he’s very intelligent, and he is a great guy. But, his overall skill set is limited. He has decent quickness to the hole and squares his shoulders pretty good, but he isn’t overly fast and he is not physical.

Harrison: Many love this kid because of what he did in preseason. Preseason is often a mirage. I have heard that the team has bigger plans for him this year, so maybe he has improved. His blocking was atrocious last year and if he can’t improve there [and no, it’s not about how much you weigh] than he won’t play again. Btw……..what round was he drafted in?

Summary: The group is almost ridiculously thin. We have to hope that Lewis stays healthy all year. We also have to hope that the QBs and WRs do at least give us a hint of a passing game, or teams are going to stack the LOS to stop Lewis. And we won’t be good enough at running the ball to overcome that. On the other hand, if we can pass the ball some, I look for Lewis to be productive. Hopefully, Harrison will help as a situational guy.

Full Back
I think Vickers will be an upgrade over Smith. He is more versatile and I really like his skills. He is quick, fast for a FB, can catch the ball, and he will block. I think he could catch a lot of passes this year in the flat. Smith was one dimensional and I thought his blocking was overrated. He really limited what we could do offensively when he was part of the package. The biggest question w/Vickers is his blocking. I’m hoping he can be a Richie Anderson type, who was very successful for years lining up in front of Curtis Martin. I think Vickers’ frame is actually larger than Anderson’s.

Wide Receiver:
This group is a huge concern. They don’t really excel at anything as a group and each guy has his problems. And I don’t think there is a good route runner in the group.

Leon: This guy was the single biggest problem on the team last year. He was the genesis of the problems that resulted in destroying team chemistry. I think the powers that be had a long, long talk w/him after the season and spelled out what he needs to do. He said some good things in the off season, but we will see what happens when the bullets start flying. I think it’s hard for arrogant individuals to change their thinking. We’ll see. On the field, his route running is pathetic. He often would just go downfield and put his arm up, and people wonder why Charlie held the ball too long…LOL. He didn’t know what Leon was going to do. Leon also forgot plays and where to line up. His hands are very suspect and he dropped a ton of balls. I think his sac is small too. He gator arms it too many times and he does not like exposing himself across the middle. LOL….that pun may have been intended. On the plus side, he is big and strong and his speed is okay. I think his stride is too long though, so he isn’t quick. Once he gets the ball, it’s like he has an alter-ego, because he is very aggressive and physical. He can punish smaller DBs once he has the ball. He has very good leaping ability and if he ever gets his head in the right place, he could dominate at times. I think he will always put up decent numbers but I also think his other problems are hard for a team to overcome.

JoeJ: Joe should be a 3rd receiver, and I like Joe’s game, so I am not insulting him. He also is a bigger guy who isn’t very quick out of the breaks. He is best running the underneath drag routes across the middle. He is also pretty good at jump balls and works the sideline well. His route running and lack of quickness limit him though. I do know that this guy wants to win. One other concern is that Joe gets injured a lot.

Wilson: He talks good, but he only had two catches last year. I really do not know enough about the guy to say much, so I won’t. *L* I do think he could really help us this year though, and if he doesn’t have it, we are screwed.

Carter: He is fast and a straight line runner. No quickness out of the breaks. He is best utilized as deep threat decoy. He can motor down the field, but don’t ask him to run routes. I think he sucks.

Cribbs: He is big and willing to go over the middle. But once again, he's another another guy who is not a good route runner and is another long strider. He can only do so much and that won’t be much as a receiver.

Summary: I think we will miss Cutt. He was the only true route runner we had and that is why he played so much last year. He had quickness out of the break. He could find the holes in the zone. His drops led to his parting though, and I can understand that, but man…..as a QB, you need guys who can run routes! I don’t think many people understand just how important that is. I think this group as a whole is pretty lame. We have to hope Leon improves his attitude, his route running,, and grows a sac. I don’t think he will ever have good hands, but actually, we can live w/that. We also need Joe to stay healthy and I think we need Wilson to develop this year. Perhaps he will be the route runner we so desperately need.

Tight End:
One of the strongest units on the team. We have a star and we have depth.

K2: Obviously, he is our best player right now. He has the skill and the will. He talks a lot, but he backs it up on the field w/an aggressive nature, unlike Leon. He has great hands and he has a great football attitude. He tied Ozzie’s reception mark and he pretty much did it on a leg and a half. He didn’t practice much last year and the leg also severely hurt his blocking. I’m telling you this though……he is a willing blocker. If his knee improves, his blocking will too. The knee also took away his down-field capabilities, which were once a strong point. He is another one who has to improve his route running and knowledge of the play book. The Browns desperately need him to be healthy this year. He’ll catch a ton of balls in this offense if he is healthy. If he is healthy, I think he will go to the Pro Bowl, and this is in a conference that is loaded w/very good TEs.

Heiden: He is a pretty good blocker and improving. He also is a decent pass receiver. His hands are inconsistent, but he catches most of them. He should have an even bigger role this year, because I think Chud is going to really utilize the TE position. That’s fine w/me, especially considering how poor our wide receivers are. Heiden is a very solid # 2 TE and we are lucky to have him.

Dinkins: He is what he is. He is a good blocker and he’s good on the goal line as either a blocker or a receiver. Other than that, he is limited, but he is good for a 3rd TE.

Summary: I like this group. Again, I think it might be the strongest spot on the team. The key, of course, is whether K2 is healthy and can stay that way.

Offensive Line:
The offensive line will be improved, but it’s only a guess as to how much. There are questions on the right side of the line, and there are concerns about the continuity issue for the line as a whole.

Joe: Greatest pick the Browns have made since they came back in 1999, and perhaps one of the greatest in the history of the franchise. Joe has it all. He is a sound technician and this is huge. He is very intelligent and will study and do the little things to improve himself technically. He desires that edge. He is extremely agile and has the best feet of any LT I’ve seen in a long, long time. He plays w/very good leverage for such a tall man and he is excellent at getting to and blocking on the second level. His pass protection skills are outstanding, although he will fool many of you. Joe actually allows the outside, up field penetration, but he steers the rusher deep and out of the play. I know people prefer the stone wall type, but Joe’ style is very effective. This is because he never overextends himself. Instead, he keeps his feet underneath him and does not miss. All rookie LTs struggle some and Joe probably will too. However, he still is going to be far superior to any LT we’ve had here since ’99. And the best part is…..Joe will allow us to open up the playbook. We won’t have to protect him as much as we did w/the other stiffs. This is huge. I can’t emphasize it enough. Joe’s mere presence will give this offense many more options.

Steiny: Like Joe, he is the best we’ve had at his position. He is also very agile and more of a finesse blocker than a road-grader. He is also very good at the second level and having these two side-by-side should lead to longer runs. I also think he will benefit Joe. Joe’s young and it’s important to put someone beside him who is a good, solid player. I didn’t think we had a prayer of landing this guy in FA, but Savage pulled it off and I give him credit. I am very excited about the left side of our line. It will be improved this year, but it will be vastly improved in the years to come because these guys could be similar in terms of dominance as Jones and Hutch were in Seattle.

Hank: If we go to zone blocking, Hank will be a much better player. He is also very technically sound, and despite his girth, is also more of a finesse blocker than a road-grader. He is another one who is very good at the second level. He studies hard and he should be improved simply because he has had time to prepare for the season. He was put in a tough spot last year. He got here way too late. Hank struggles w/his lateral movement a bit, so if we do go to zone blocking, that can be covered up a little bit if the guys are in-sync. I don’t think Hank is great, but I do think he is good enough to win with, especially if you surround him w/very good players.

McKinney: I don’t know a lot about this guy. I asked for a scouting report on my other thread, but no one provided one. I do think he is a key to our line. We need a RG who can move a little bit. I do think we will be throwing the ball out into the flat and we need a guy who can get out there. We also need a RG who can go get the LBer. I believe he has these types of skills, but I’m not positive. If anyone does have a scouting report, could you please supply it? If Shaffer and Tuck start, McKinney would at the very least provide excellent depth. The main question w/him is going to be health. How will that neck respond when they start hitting? I guess it is the big unknown.

Tuck: I think Tuck will play and I think the Browns are counting on him. He can play either RT or RG. He is big and strong and if he gets into you, it’s over. He has also improved from a technical point of view in the last several years. He is good at punching a man and then coming off to get another. I think he would be fine if we went to zone blocking. I hope he can hold up. I do have to say he is a bit of a question mark though.

Shaffer: Thank God he is not our LT anymore. He is a poor technician and doesn’t work hard enough at the game. He has some physical skills, but I am not sure if he is in the Brown’s plans. It would be great for our line and our team if he could move over to the right side and play. Our depth would increase by a great amount, and as we all know, our backups are called upon each year. I really don’t like Shaffer’s game, but the injury bug concerns me and I hope he can get his act together.

The Rest of the Bunch: I heard Sowells was light-years away last year. I will say that I heard he is doing better this year. Before you ask how can that be when they haven’t hit yet……I’ll answer and say he is doing better mentally, and that is huge on the OL. I really don’t think this guy has much of a chance of starting, but hopefully, he improves enough to provide adequate depth. I actually liked that Friedman guy. I thought he did a better job than either Andruzzi or Coleman when he got the opportunity. I also like his versatility. But, before anyone gets excited…….he is a backup. Smith? I don’t know enough about him to be accurate, but I was under whelmed last year. Butler lunges too much and doesn’t maintain that balance that I brought up earlier in regards to Joe. I hope he doesn’t have to play. Dorsey is a piece of crap and should be cut. Did I miss anyone noteworthy? Oh yeah….Mantua or whatever. I haven’t seen enough of him to make an educated statement, so I won’t comment. Sorry.

Summary: I know the OL will be improved but we really do have questions on the right side. I don’t even know who is going to start at either position. That’s a concern. I think Tuck, provided he is healthy, will man one of the two, but it all depends on whether McKinney or Shaffer impress the coaches more. I also think it’s going to be tough for this offensive line because an offensive line needs time to develop continuity, and we are putting in an entire new offense AND we may even be putting in new blocking schemes. Man, that is a lot to overcome. So, while I think the OL will be improved, it might not be as drastic as one might think.

Well……….this is too long to go on. I will do the defensive side of the ball later on. To the guy who asked me to do this. I just realized you probably were more interested in the D side of the ball and I was intending to do it all at one time, but I wonder how many will even read all the way through this one.

Let me just say this:

Offensive Summary: There are still a lot of question marks due to lack of talent and experience. I think the O will be better this year, but I still think it is going to be one of the worst offenses in the league. I don’t think we will be lighting it up. I don’t think we will even efficient and productive. It’s going to be a struggle and it will have almost nothing to do w/RAC. But, I bet a lot of you will blame him for the offensive problems. Won’t ya?

Thank you for your breakdown. I am interested in both sides of the ball. I tend to agree with you all most across the board. I find the recievers very troubling. JJ is hurt a lot and Wilson is a complete unknown. The rest are stiffs with the exception of Edwards. I think he has the talent to be a number one but not sure if he has the mentality.

I'm hoping that the weight Harrison put on makes him a much stronger runner. I don't think Wright is very good our QB is going to need a strong running game to be successful.

Very good overview... but I would say its a bit pessimistic. As with any year in the NFL no one really knows. Your not going to find out if Charlie/Derek/Brady can carry this team until the season starts. So to post such a finite opinion to say that they're going to this; or this player is going to do that; is just air IMO.

Sadly being a pessimistic prognosticator is good strategy with the Browns the past decade though. You'll be correct most of the time. An NFL season can turn so many ways though, it's just not even worth to debating IMO. As I think Savage and would Crennel say... We're better on paper <period>.

Man is September here yet?

Very good breakdown...I will provide some thoughts on this stuff later on tonight.

I have been catching up on McKinney too...might be able to help out there.

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Sadly being a pessimistic prognosticator is good strategy with the Browns the past decade though.

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It is not a stradegy in Vers case. He is quick to say when he sees something good. The fact that he is usually right is a bad thing.

General reply...

I asked him for this breakdown because he posts very good football content that makes great debate. Most understand he has a wealth of football knowledge.

These are just his opinions but he makes them from a deep knowledge of football. We should debate on the the assesments instead of just dimissing the opinions.

Peen: Yeah, it was a bold statement about Joe. But truthfully, when they called his name out on draft day....well......I can't remember ever being happier about a pick. I'm not asking anyone to agree w/me though.


Barf: And it's better strategy to simply saying I'm full of hot air w/out saying why. *L* I could care less if people disagree w/me and I know there's plenty of things in my post to disagree with. Both good and bad. However, I do ask for people to use logic and reason when they debate me. Just don't say I'm wrong........tell me why I am wrong.

BigC: I'm looking forward to your comments.....and I really am interested about McKinney.

PDawg: I wasn't sure if you wanted your name mentioned. Now that you put it out there......I'll let you know that I'll get the defensive side shortly. It hurts my brain to write that much though.....*L*

Oh, and thanks for the praise, but that kind of talk makes me very uneasy. You know what I mean?

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Oh, and thanks for the praise, but that kind of talk makes me very uneasy. You know what I mean?

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No I don't. I never get praise. Sorry, that was not my intent. I have disagreed with you many times and have gotten mad as hell at the way you post just as much.

I have given praise to other posters because when I see a logical differing opinion I think that's when I learn the most. What makes this the best board IMO is the overall intelligence of this board. You, and many, many others are a part of that.

Good assesment.

I agree, never been happier with a pick we have made (cept my boy courtney brown...I loved that guy...QUITE STORM!!!!) Let's hope that's not an omen.

Jerome Harrison? 5th round pick 145

Can't find squat on Mckinney, and Steve heiden's hands are UNDER RATED!!!!

Great post, Vers. Some of the material you've put out here lately is among the best I've read on any version of this board.

You sum things up well. Our offense will be better. It's sad that we can improve and still suck, but it's true.

All I will say now is McKinney will be an interesting RG. If they are committed to the zone, it might work.

Very in depth quality post.

My main thing, which I've harped on in many threads and will continue to harp on, is how a healthier Jamal Lewis will play coupled with the best line we've had since our return.

I know you're not expecting much out of us in the win column, but I can't help but remember the 2002 season when William Green got going. We sure as hell weren't a good team (objectively, we were the worst playoff team I've ever seen), but we squeaked out wins and just stayed alive in the playoffs.

I think it's safe to say a healthy Lewis is light years beyond a healthy Green, and our 2002 line at least on paper is nothing like our projected line this year.

IMO, that can only be good for the win/loss column, unless the QB play is Bolleresque (our D can't carry us with that kind of QB play even if Lewis posts 1500 yards). I can only imagine defensively we will play better than last year, if for any other reason the fact that young key parts are one year older, one year wiser. Let alone the FA additions.

Here's a good one, if Lewis runs effectively and the line provides enough protection, in theory, shouldn't Quinn be able to handle a simpler offense like Roethlisberger handled his rookie year? I know that's a loaded question, but the optimist in me is projecting the best scenario. And the best scenario to me is the offense protects the blue chip QB who may be limited as a rookie, but still makes the offense go more effectively than the others. I know you disagree with that one.

I'd like to see us creep up into the upper 20's in offense and crack the top 15 or even top 10 in rushing next season. That may be too optimistic but with a healthy Lewis and improved line anything is possible on that front.

Good post Vers.

I agree with most of what you say, probably not as pessimistic reviews of everyone as you give, but it is very realist.

I just cheering for a 6-8 win season and I will consider this year a success. Anything more and it's a bonus.

I expect to see much improvement from the Oline, some improvement from the WR, and I expect the TE's to be on par with last year.

When Toad shows up again He should be able to give some more info on your RG . He was big on the guy in the FA. and was a happy camper when we signed him ...

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Shaffer: Thank God he is not our LT anymore.

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Vers...according to this bit of info, Shaffer is still our LT.

Browns | Thomas working with second unit
Mon, 18 Jun 2007 07:37:36 -0700

Jeff Walcott, of ClevelandBrowns.com, reports Cleveland Browns OT Joe Thomas has worked with the second-team offense throughout offseason practices at left tackle behind OT Kevin Shaffer.

web page

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I think it's safe to say a healthy Lewis is light years beyond a healthy Green, and our 2002 line at least on paper is nothing like our projected line this year.

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That was our best line to date and it stayed relatively healthy. It wasn't a coincidence that we had our best season. This year's line has the potential to be better, but it's going to take some time. Think about it.......they have 3 things going against them.
1. It's going to be almost a brand new line and they have no continuity.
2. The Browns are putting in a new, more complex offense, which will add to the confusion.
3. They might switch to zone blocking, which is even more to learn.

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IMO, that can only be good for the win/loss column, unless the QB play is Bolleresque (our D can't carry us with that kind of QB play even if Lewis posts 1500 yards). I can only imagine defensively we will play better than last year, if for any other reason the fact that young key parts are one year older, one year wiser. Let alone the FA additions.

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Perhaps, but the loss of Russell might hurt. Not because of his physical ability, but his mental abilities. I'll do a breakdown on the D later.

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Here's a good one, if Lewis runs effectively and the line provides enough protection, in theory, shouldn't Quinn be able to handle a simpler offense like Roethlisberger handled his rookie year? I know that's a loaded question, but the optimist in me is projecting the best scenario. And the best scenario to me is the offense protects the blue chip QB who may be limited as a rookie, but still makes the offense go more effectively than the others. I know you disagree with that one.

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I don't think the Browns have a fraction of the talent Pittsburgh had when Big Ben was a rookie. Last year, we asked Charlie to carry the team. LOL.....and he was a kid.

Look, BQ is a kid. He has a chance to be a very good QB. But, I have noticed some flaws in his game. I do think his mechanics break down at times and he loses his accuracy when they do. The LAST thing we wanna do is put the kid in a position where he is going to be facing the two dreaded pressures------both from the rush and just the anxiety of playing in the NFL as a rook. I really feel that he might fall prey to the mechanical problems that occasionally hurt him in the past...except that in this case.......it would be much, much worse. I don't want this kid developing bad habits. I want him to work on his mechanics all year. I wish I trusted our QB coach. I want him to learn this offense inside-out......and I want him studying his ass off---learning about other team's schemes, including defenses and coverages. I want him as well prepared as possible when he does take the field. And hey....I want the OL to have developed some continuity to. I know patience isn't a cool word w/fans, but I think it will pay off in the long run. I would not play BQ this year.


Note to the rest of you. Look, I know there is a lot to digest in my first post. I wanna hear your opinions on my takes. I realize there is a lot there and it could be overwhelming to post to all of that. Hell, writing it taxed my pee brain. Perhaps you could reply to a segment at a time? We could generate some good discussion if we break up the units. I think it's too much to discuss all at once.

Oh...and Florida Fan..........I thought I was being pretty positive. Did you see that stuff I wrote about Joe? And I wrote good things about Lewis, our tight ends, and actually....the OL as a whole. That's the most positive post I've ever made about the OL. And I think our QB situation could improve in future years. I just don't think it's going to be too good this year.

Anyway.......I'm ready for some debate. Let's have at it.

Thanks mac, but I did know that. I was projecting for opening day. And I don't see how in the world Shaffer could beat out Joe. Do you?

No doubt Joe was a good pick.....and Romeo or not, I can't see him not playing somewhere opening game.....assuming he doesn't miss a big portion of camp.

After thinking about it some since my last post.....let's just talk line a while since that has been the biggest topic of discussion for some time.

I don't see any way we are not VASTLY improved, even if those guys haven't taken one snap together.

I will go under the assumption Thomas is the LT and Schaffer doesn't beat him out.

Thomas is at least no worse than Schaffer....and unlike some, I didn't think Shaffer was as bad as some did...and he will get better each game. Thomas improves that side at least a little on day one.

Steinbach makes the LT better no matter who plays there. Had Thomas not been drafted and Shaffer stayed at LT, people would be making comments about how he stepped up his game. Steinbach is a pro-bowl type player who will make the rest of the line better.

Fraley and Smith(?) are good enough at the center position...maybe not all-pro...but they are good enough to seal some backers and get their pads on somebody. And the steinbach factor mentioned before applies to the center position as well.

RT....Tucker seems to be back by all the reports...add Butler and Shaffer if not at LT.....we are good there.....with options

RG is still a question mark with McKinney or whoever.....but the Tucker/Schaffer combo can spell that position....not to mention Sowells(I am not sold on that guy but the team seems high on him).

I see our line as a better than average line....and possibly a very good line with some work together....the strongest unit on the O from where I sit next to the TE position.

Hey Vers...nice post...FWIW here is a McKinney profile coming out of College:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2002/profiles/mckinney_seth.htm



Seth McKinney
Position: Offensive Center
College: Texas A&M
Height: 6-3
Weight: 300
Hometown: Austin, Texas

Career Notes | Agility | High School | Personal | Stats

ANALYSIS
Positives: Has a frame that can carry additional weight with no loss of speed … Shows excellent quickness as a snap-and-step center, getting a strong surge when making initial contact … Shows the body control and foot agility to quickly move off the snap … Makes all the line calls, reacting instinctively as he easily spots the stunts … Active, tough competitor who always gives that second effort … Has great work habits, sacrificing time to make himself better … Shows proper knee bend to gain position, anchor and sustain … Drives with force coming out of his stance, staying with the defender while keeping a wide leg base to maintain balance … Excels at pulling to trap when uncovered, cutting off on the front side of the gap … Moves well in the box, showing good range … Has a fluid drop-and-set with his head on a swivel, displaying good footwork in pass blocking … Adjusts well in space and does a nice job either in one-on-one situations or combining with his guards to shut down the inline rush … Has the lateral quickness and sudden movements to get position on the linebacker moving downfield and shows the slide ability in both directions when angle blocking … Can make the shotgun snap.

Negatives: Not much of a striker coming off the ball, relying on his speed to get the surge … More of a grab-and-steer type of blocker who needs to show a stronger hand punch and better usage of his arms … Needs to develop better leg drive and knee bend, as he appears a little rigid in his angle blocks … Lacks proper weight distribution, which causes him to go to the ground too much … Does not show enough power hitting on the rise, but does play at a good pad level … Uses his shoulders and forearms too much to lean into blocks rather than steering the defender with his hands.
CAREER NOTES
Tough, durable athlete who started 50-consecutive games (including bowl game) during his time with the Aggies … Only the fifth center in NCAA Division I-A history to start every game in a career (joining Bryan Stoltenburg of Colorado, Courtney Hall of Rice, Chris Lorenti of Central Florida and Matt Hancock of New Mexico State) … Also excels in the classroom, earning Academic All-America honors … Carried on the family tradition of starring for Texas A&M, as his brother, Jason, was a standout offensive lineman for the Aggies (1994-97) and now stars for the Indianapolis Colts … Set a school record with a 401-pound power-clean lift.

McKinney was a nice player out of college, but I don't know if his college report is germane any longer.

He was a decent pro until he got hurt.

The only thing that really matters is how he holds up after his surgery.

We will find that out by mid August.

good post...

i think offensively the Browns will either be the STUFF, or complete garbage.. similar to last year.. hopefully the later will not happen though..

Well, I hope you are right. I simply think it's a lot to throw on their plate---note my reply to Ammo.

We certainly have more talent on our line than at any previous point since '99. Man, it would be nice if we actually did have a decent line for once.

Hey Django....thanks.

I also really appreciate the profile. I was hoping it would look something like that. Guys, if we go to zone blocking, he could fit right in. Good agility, competitive, intelligent, good technique, good range, good at trapping, etc. His weakness looks to be a lack of strength, which would make him a liability in a straight drive blocking scheme.

This kid gives us a shot. I feel better now. Thanks again.

I never read these long things, but I saw the poster and thought it would be worth my time and it was...

I disagreed at some spots but agreed with 90+% of it, and what you said about Winslow was ooooooh so true...

1 1/2 leg and he did that, I cant wait for 2007 season man...

I hope you do defense, if u didnt already, im going to look now, thanks Vers

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A lot of people rave about DA’s arm. It’s strong, but it is not a cannon and frankly, arm strength is overrated. He is even less accurate than Charlie and if he wins the starting gig, it won’t last.

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Totally agree. Anderson is a guy i haven't bought into. He looked decent in his first couple games, but who doesn't when defenses have trouble gameplanning against you. Got inside info about him too, which isn't in his favor. Anderson just isnt our starting QB.

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I do NOT think he should play this year.

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(referring to Brady Quinn)

I'd be perfectly fine giving Quinn a full season to sit the bench. That or don't start him till like week 10. Rookie QBs in over their heads can hurt their chances in the long run when they start too early. Palmer and Pennington waited at least a full year. Those are two of my favs in the game and if Quinn can match their success i will be ecstatic (I'm a huge Pennington fan, the guy is the only one who gets that Jets offense goin, lol. People rip on him and his arm, but Pennington is a cerebral guy who gets it done. look what happened to the Jets when he got injured).

Some people think my thinking is wrong i know, but i'd rather keep Quinn away from bad habbits that he could fall into for no reason. Slow and steady with'm

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Carter: He is fast and a straight line runner. No quickness out of the breaks. He is best utilized as deep threat decoy. He can motor down the field, but don’t ask him to run routes. I think he sucks.

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I've been saying this also since we got the guy. I live in CT near NYC so we get Giants games. Tim Carter was never paticularly good, i'll cheer for him: but i expect him to suck; i figured he was brought in as a punt returner just in case. Now he's just a decoy reciever for us i'm thinking.

I still dont see why we can have Tucker/Shaffer playing RG/RT either way, or would neither of them transition into a guard too well?

That was a nice thing to say. And I'll do the defensive one in a few days.
K2 is a really good TE. I hope he is healthy this year. I suspect he will kick ass in this offense.

Oh......and I think Tuck can play RG. Just not sure if Shaffer is good enough to play RT.





Ammo: This could be a bad situation for a rookie QB. And I'm talking about this upcoming year. I still think it's going to take time for this O to get it together. I just think BQ is too big of an investment to even think about messing up. Also, I don't think this team is going to win a lot of games this year no matter what. I'd play it safe, but that's just me.


Petey: You're pretty smart for a young whipper-snapper. You have a lot of solid thoughts......

Some thoughts on McKinney...

1.) He's not a bulky guy. I don't like his lack of leg drive, or overall lower body strength.
2.) He plays a bit high at times. Granted, this was older film, but he pulling some waist bending.
3.) Good hand punch. Seems to have improved on this since coming out of school.
4.) He's an okay athlete at C, better at G.
5.) He sets up blocks well. Personally, I like guys who understood the flow of the ball, and how to set up their block. For example, if your OG knows the play is going to be cut back to inside, towards the center (so moving left) of the line, he gets his hands on the guy, but allows his defender the ability to shed back to the ball carrier, that's pointless. McKinney seems to understand the direction a block needs to go. Some OL don't use their hands and sides well, but McKinney does. This might seem weird and I had some trouble explaining it, but let me know.

Overall, I like him a lot at C, but the film just isn't there of him at G. The Dolphins had experimented with him at LG, but he's not played any meaningful games at RG. At the very least, I think he'll be better than Sowells would.

Vers, the only things I disagree with you on are JamLew and Joe J, but I had those thoughts in the Under/Over thread.

Can't disagree with much of what you're saying because in general it's a pretty good picture of where we are right now. However, intangibles like chemistry, execution, attitude, synergy, (the whole being greater than the sum of its parts and all that,) could paint an entirely different picture. Better line play, a new "attack style" offense, a running game, (maybe even a really good running game,) helps our passing game with our no-name QBs and our inferior WR corps. Our TEs will certainly help, so maybe we're looking at something different, something we haven't seen in the past making it harder to compare to the losing teams we've had to endure over and over. The differences between this team and teams of the recent past are many, but purely from a talent point of view we're head and shoulders above where we were. That goes for coaching and organizational talent as well. Where in the recent past it didn't much matter how hard we fought, we've always been over-matched on and off the field... now that gap is closing, anything is once again possible; even beating our division rivals, or not finishing last in the division or at the bottom of the league. But we'll see. To me, the guys look and seem excited. I personally think we're going to like Jamal, (in particular,) Wright, Harrison & Vickers and I think the line will look decent, (watching the TC tape, they seem to be instituting zone schemes and Jamal looks good cutting back and finding openings). I think we'll love our new scheme and believe our WRs will step up, (Joe J, BE, Wilson, Carter & Cribbs,) and disagree that we will miss Cutt, unless it's at the PR position. And I don't think it matters much this year who starts at QB, because it will be the best of the three, and that could change at any point between now and next year. I just wish they would name one and be done with it. But the bottom line is, I'm always overly optimistic at this point in the season and I'll just have to wait and see how the team really is coming together when they get on the field against a real opponent and the score actually counts. Nice breakdown, though.

Great read. I enjoyed that!

You have my approval if you want to do a Defensive Breakdown.

BigC: Interesting take on McKinney. It's a bit different than the scouting report. The more information we receive, the better.

I understood what you were saying on the cutback. And you are right, it is extremely important. It's about body positioning. That's why individual drills are so important. It's a must that your head is on the proper side, and it's not always easy to get it there. *L* It's all about footwork, man. Kinda crazy, huh? These big lumbering hulks and we stress the importance of footwork. BigC, I don't care what sport it is........good footwork is huge!




Cal: Thanks and nice post. I understand your optimistic attitude and think it's cool. Actually, I'm more excited about this team, even though I don't think they will have a great record, than I have been in a long time. I think we finally have some players and it's going to be fun watching them grow. I know I will get frustrated w/posters who get their hopes up too high and then call for firing RAC and that will put a damper on things, but as far as just watching.......I'm pretty damn excited about this team.



Brownie: Thanks for the compliment and I am glad I have your approval.

Oh....and BigC. I don't know if we are disagreeing about Joe all that much. I just think he would be better as the third receiver and if we could line him up in the slot. I think he could excel in that role.

Btw......I don't mind guys disagreeing w/my opinions at all. I just prefer that people back up what they say, instead of saying......"you're wrong," or "you are so negative and you hate the Browns." LOL

Good post Vers, I don't think we should count out Barclay in the RB mix though. He may be only in NFLE, but I was pretty impressed with his speed and ability to find the hole with an absolutely trash OL. He may amount to nothing, but he may end up in the mix.

Besides our QB situation, I do actually like your assessment on the WR situation. If Edwards has another average year with the problems you mentioned I think we're going to be in trouble. Since I'm one of his supporters, I hope he can turn it around both for himself and the sake of the team. If he can that will open up our running game and with Lewis, I feel it could be pretty exciting.

Vers, one thing to ponder is the film I saw of McKinney so far was when Houck was the OL coach in Miami, who runs a zone scheme, so I think it plays favorably into the scheme the Browns are rumored to be using.

QBs the biggest positive and the biggest negative right now is the same thing. None of the 3 have seperated themselves although Anderson has shown the most in the mini's. The good and bad of it is that Anderson and Frye have had a lot more time to study Chud's new offense but Quinn is already on par with those 2. Brady get in camp prove yourself and the faster u do that the faster you can get that 2nd contract. Hold out and you not only set yourself back a year, you may also set yourself back even longer if by some miracle anderson or Frye steps it up behind this new OL and Lewis.

RB.
We havent had a probowl back in forever and now we have a possible hall of fame back. 1700 folks.

I like Harrison as the number 2 more than Wright but I hope Barclay makes it as the 3rd down back. He picked up some blitzes in NFLE that were Emmit Smith quality.

Receivers. JJ is to slow. Edwards cant catch or run a route. Pull the receivers and just add two more OL. Travis Wilson may be the best we have on the roster and man that aint saying much.

TE's here's a secret use 2 tightend sets cause we dont have 3 or 4 receivers that should ever be on the field at the same time. In fact 2 TE and a FB would be our best philosophy.


OL On paper this should be one of the best in the league. On grass we will see.

Hmm.. lots of food for thought here.

My take is this.. I'm of the opinion that Vers is hitting 90% here.. I disagree on Anderson, I think he's better than we give him credit for. The same way that we can't completely evaluate Charlie b/c of the OL is the same way we can't evaluate DA.

I think the big knock on DA is his ability to think things thru and read the defenses.. IF he can upgrade that, then I think he has a shot at being somebodies BUP QB if not the starter in an injury scenario

IMO.. both of those two are incomplete grades as yet. This year we begin to be able to start grading a lot of things on the offense.

One thing I want to caution people about.. read what Vers is saying about the QB's and the receivers and bear in mind how LONG it takes an offense particularly the OL to come together and start playing as a unit.. then be realistic about what record you think the Browns are going to do.. so far as I can tell, 6 wins is about what I expect.

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One thing I want to caution people about.. read what Vers is saying about the QB's and the receivers and bear in mind how LONG it takes an offense particularly the OL to come together and start playing as a unit.. then be realistic about what record you think the Browns are going to do..

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I just wanted to second that.



Vers...

...another good thread. One that upon reading the title I thought I could contribute to more. But it is so realistic and right on the money that there is little I could add, if any, and nothing to debate.

No sense in re-typing what you've already written and that's pretty much how I see things, only you give more in-depth detail than I'm capable of.

If I were to debate anything you've said it is that I really don't feel our QB situation is as dire as you paint it. I did look over all the NFL teams and we indeed lack any real experience from top to bottom. In addition, the chances Frye has taken due to playing from behind and also making rookie mistakes, we probably are considered at the bottom of the NFL with our QB's.

But I don't follow the popular notion that the unknown must be better than the starter who struggles.

I really think with improved play around him he could very well lead the team. I realize many say that the QB should make everyone around him better instead of vice versa. But it's tough making chicken salad out of chicken chit. I believe it's only a fair observation that if the team improves then Charlie can improve all the more. There has to be a minimum core to begin with and it looks like we are just now getting that on the field.

Just so you know, I realize you did say that Frye gives us the best chance to win this season so I've not misinterpreted you as saying he sucks and shouldn't start out of this group we have. But I really believe his accuracy, which was a great positive in his college scouting reports, will improve once he can relax a bit, count on his receivers and his protection.

Neither do I think he is stupid and I believe he will better be able to read defenses and coverages with some semblance of protection and better route running. The guy has got to have confidence in someone else on the team and there has been little to give him that.

I remember when Alex Smith was drafted, the media could not say enough about his high Wonderlic score. They cited that as viable proof that he was extremely smart and so would have no trouble learning to read complex defenses. Frye scored on point lower than Smith.

He's no dummy. I know he seems to talk like it sometimes but so does K2. Doesn't really sound intelligent at all. But he's football smart. I believe Charlie is football smart. He may or may not ever be great at reading defenses and coverages, but as much duress as he was under last year I'm not surprised he struggled with that among other things.

He made quite a few rookie mistakes in forcing the ball last season. I know he desparately threw into coverage trying to make something happen. The second Bengals game really comes into mind. Hopefully he has learned that you can't do that at this level. I read somewhere that the home crowd used to cheer when Brett Favre threw the ball away. *L* That's something Frye had to learn last season so I hope it's ingrained in him by now.

Just as Diam broke down some of BQ's games and pointed out where dropped balls were the drive killers in some of ND's worst games, the same could be done with Frye and the Browns. Think back to how many 3rd down balls bounced off recievers hands and chests. Or how many times he'd throw out and the WR would cut in or vice versa. They happened at the most imopportune times. I don't think all of those were mistakes by the QB.

Or how many decent drives were halted by the running game not being able to gain a yard or two. Sometimes I think fans and media focus a bit too much on a QB's mistakes when there were plethera of misfires and a lack of execution by other players that get overlooked or minimized.

Al that being said, Brady Quinn is the future. No doubt about that. If he's handled correctly the future looks bright.


I think DA is good for one game. As he was in the second half of the KC game. Coming off the bench with his quick release and stronger arm he takes a defense by surprise if just a bit. After that I don't believe he can be consistant. It seems like he throws a gang of great balls and then ruins it with a drive killer. His lack of mobility is a severe liability that limits what the offense can do. Nothing wrong with a pure pocket passer. But were not to the point with our OL that we can protect one. Plus, with the talk of Chud's scheme sometimes involving a "moving pocket", (a result of zone blocking making that possible?), DA just doesn't fit the scheme.

BQ should sit until he's ready. How long did Steve McNair sit? Two or three years? No sin in that. I'm not proposing sitting Quinn for that long, rather keeping him off the field until he is as ready as he can get without actually playing in a game.

Damn man, I have been lurking lately but continue to read some of the things on here.. This was such a good post that I had to join in on this...

I agree on alot of what you said, check that most of what you said...

With the WR's, you and I were one of the first on here to poor gas on Savage for the Leon Pick... And like you, STILL hate it however, I think you stated it right when you picked apart his strengths and weaknesses in this thread...

I think Wilson is going to surprise many people this year... Not because I want it to happen but because some good info has leaked out about how much he has stepped up and asserted himself... Athletically, he was known in college as the anti-Leon in that he was a good route runner and had excellent hands... If the kid can stay off the IR, I think we may have something in him...

The RB's... I was shocked and sad about the Lewis signing... Took some getting used to that he has crossed over from the "dark side" to join us... I do think that Harrison should see more PT this year on 3rd down as we will have a much improved line which will allow his weakness to not be so exposed... Couple in the fact that we will most likely be using a zone blocking scheme and I think the shifty little will be a huge compliment to Lewis and even click off some large gains..

Now to RAC, I have maintained all along that I want to see improvement from him as a COACH... The horse has been beaten to a pulp so I will save both you and the time... Suffice it to say that IF he gets canned this season, I see it being more because of his inabilities and shortcomings than the preverbial mob to which you often reffer to...

Again, thanks for the post bro and I am anxious to read the one about the defense...

I enjoyed the post, there are many good qualities in it, and it is probably more accurate than any pre-season publication that will hit the newstand.

For the sake of discussion, lets compare last years team performance to this years.

QB's ... we will see improvement at this postion on improved talent other than QB alone. I have no preference for the starting QB's but secretly hope that Frye gets a second year to show what an improved line means to a QB's production. I also generally favor mobile QB's and Frye has that ability. I guess my second would be Quinn, but I think he is a year away.

RB's I think Lewis will be better than Droughns. Part of this will be the OL. This is the one position that cannot take a hit with an injury. If Lewis stays healthy, we should anticipate 1300 to 1500 yards this season. Vickers will be an improvement over the one dimensional "crash-test-dummy" Smith.

WR's I am not a big fan of the BE bashers, so let's call him a developing player. Last year he was an average WR with above average skill and an attitude. JJ is a third. The question is with Travis Wilson. In the glimpse that I saw, I was resonably impressed. I would not be surprised if the Browns went out and picked up another veteran if Wilson does not show himself in camp. Northcutt will not be missed, so on that point we have a difference of opinion, but the reality is that I would have rather played Wilson in the second half of the season, than watch the antics of Northcutt.

TE's. The Browns are pretty much set, and hopefully KW2's knee holds up. This will be an ongoing thing with the Browns.

OL. This is where I anticipate that we will see the biggest improvement in the team. Last year's group was not very good and it is no surprise that 2 were released and one will struggle to find the playing field. The unit has some depth and some players that may develop as well. I anticipate improvement from Stein, JT and Fraley, who is a better zone blocker, and I think that Tuck will have a better year, so all that is needed is a RG.

One point that should be mentioned.

Chud. This is perhaps the biggest change in the Browns in the offseason. Hopefully this will mean a change in playcalling and execution. For the past couple of years the Browns offense has been predictable and without an identity. Although it may take some time to develop, I think the biggest difference will be in how the Browns approach the game.

Left tackle: I was happier than I've ever been regarding the draft when the Browns picked Joe Thomas!

I assume Joe will beat out Shaffer for the starting job, but who knows? My reasoning is that Joe appears to be intelligent and teachable. He appears to be the type of man who will listen to his coaches, and really work to make any improvements.
It's been posted here in the recent past that Shaffer can be a jerk. If so, that tells me he is less likely to want to take instruction. It has also been stated that he has lousy technique and a lousy approach to the game.

It looks like the Browns may employ some zone blocking this year. From the little I've learned about zone blocking, repetition is key, so would have liked to see Joe Thomas working with Eric Steinbach on the first team.

I wont make any prediction of what kind of a job Thomas would do if he is the starting LT this year. If he struggles...well, he will likely improve with experience. If he does a good job, great!...he will still improve over time, unless he is a bust...which seems unlikely.