DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Major League Baseball Continues to Waffle on Chief Wahoo

Plus, Sambo is never used as a symbol of strength and courage, qualities to aspire to emulate.

It is a caricature.. by definition a caricature exaggerates your features.. a caricature will always be viewed as cute by some and offensive by others...

I honestly don't know how to make an "Indian" logo that people would like, at least not one with a person in it. Others have had the Indian as a warrior but they were offended at being characterised as a violent people... caricatures won't work... I guess you could have a logo of an Indian farming or shooting a bow and arrow at a buffalo or sitting around a campfire.. but that's not a very good sports logo.

Perhaps an easier fix is for people to man up a bit and stop being so easily offended.

The last caricatures I had done of actually looked way better than I really do. So all ugly Indians should love the Chief.

I don't want to get too far into this, but it was done by a Washington DC newspaper (gee, I wonder if they have a bias). They didn't verify anyone was actually Native American. They pulled from a demographic that was completely non-representative of Native Americans demographics. And it was filled with old people who were from an area where the use of Redskin was so commonly used as a slur against them as they grew up that it was normalized as something they had to get used to. It would be like asking other minorities who grew up in the 40's how they felt about words that are now viewed as complete slurs.

The fact is, the 5 biggest tribes in the US have all signed resolutions to remove the use of the word from sports teams, as well as to remove all mascots, logos and names of any other word. Those resolutions represent over 500,000 Native Americans.

I live here and can't stand that Liberal rag known as the Washington Post so I can understand you thinking they twisted the truth on the Redskins matter.

By things like wearing a BLM t-shirt or kneeling during the national anthem?

You're from DC.....? Didn't know that. I thought you were from Alabama....?

What's that supposed to mean? Sounds like stereotyping.

DC, I think there are a lot of great ways to represent Native Americans.









We could come up w/much better, but I found those in less than 30 seconds.

I want the crying Indian in the PSA commercial.

That dude was awesome!

Of course it is but he is a Liberal so it's ok.

I don't like when either side does it. Hateful and ignorant.

But as a Liberal, we just look away like it never happened.

A Conservative would be a Racist Nazi.

We need to find a local Native American group to partner with. We should do what FSU does with the Seminoles tribe!

I don't like Florida State, but man, when Chief Osceola [I believe he is portrayed by a university student] rides out on Renegade and buries that burning spear at mid-field w/the crowd going crazy.............that's damn cool.

Much better than some fake, bright red, caricature that is more offensive than anything else.

I'm just trying to help/add to the mix :

What a nasty boy.

Wahoo-ooooo

That should be offensive as hell also because most Indian women don't look like that. It's a reverse Caricature. I expect everybody to start protesting that Photo as it is a insult to the average Native American.

I don't think I've ever actually met any Native American women..... Even when I lived in Los Angeles? Nope. And it's a huge melting pot there, almost every race and nationality you can imagine.

I once gave an Apache man a ride when I lived in Arizona.

Besides you see Liz Warren on the news most nights.

They make up about 2 percent of the population and 1 in 4 are living in poverty. Many live on reservations or barren areas where the living conditions are horrific. My wife and I have talked about going to such a place to provide education and medical help once we retire for good. You should research how horrific some of their living conditions are. It's really heart-breaking and sobering.

Now, here is a page of many depictions of Native Americans where the Dolans could find a way of honoring the name of their team instead of keeping a caricature that dehumanizes Native Americans and thereby making it easier to ignore their sad plight in American society.

Here's the link:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/435019645232397348/

You mean Iron Eyes Cody? He wasn't even Native American.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eyes_Cody

Iron Eyes Cody (born Espera Oscar de Corti April 3, 1904 – January 4, 1999) was a Sicilian-American actor. He portrayed Native Americans in Hollywood films. He also played an Indian shedding a tear about litter in one of the country's most well-known television PSAs, "Keep America Beautiful". In 1996, Cody's half-sister said that he was actually of Italian ancestry, but he denied it.

I didnt make it personal, you did. Read your first comment.

And again, that article doesn't explain why the logo is racist or offensive. It says exactly what I said it did. Its the little black sambo.

Let me ask y'all a question (actually 2)

1. If the Indians changed the logo, got rid of Chief Wahoo and used an image representing native americans that was less offensive... would it impact your "fandom" for the team?

a. Yes, I would be a bigger fan if they did that.
b. Yes, I would be less of a fan if they did that.
c. No, I would just have to buy a different hat.

2. If the Indians changed the name all together and got rid of "Indians" and came up with a completely different name and rebranded the whole thing.. would it impact your "fandom" for the team?

a. Yes, I would be a bigger fan if they did that.
b. Yes, I would be less of a fan if they did that.
c. No, I would just have to buy a different hat.

NONE of it would impact my fandom for the team(s).

I'm a Browns fan. I don't do basketball OR baseball. I love football.

The Cavs' win was nice, but it didn't reach my heart.
If Cleveland's baseball team wins the world series, it will be nice... but it won't reach me in my heart.

I won't have "My Moment" until the Browns win the Super Bowl.


That said:

WE can start with the logo's name: "Chief Wahoo."
That in itself should stop the conversation in its tracks.

Beyond that, the logo's face is swathed in a color that no human being (outside of Donald Trump) has ever displayed.

From a distance, the logo looks more like a red-colored "one-finger salute" (with that st00pid single feather poking up) than anything else.

The 'bucked toothed grin' takes it totally over the top, for me.

It's a tacky, cartoonish logo, beyond any 'racist' overtones it may possibly invoke.

I've always thought it was a regional embarrassment... even before I had any concept of 'race in America.'


Since I was a kid.... I've always hated Wahoo.

What a dumb mascot.
Surely, Cleveland could do better.


.02

I'd be a fan regardless of a logo change or name change.

In the late 1800's the Cleveland baseball team were called the Cleveland Spiders. That would be cool, it would reference a historic team. The only issue is...without google checking it I believe the Spiders may well still own the worst record of any baseball team. Pretty sure I read that somewhere. But, I love the idea of the "Spiders".

IF they kept the "Indians" name....I think a cool logo could be found in Native American Art. New Mexico has the Medicine Wheel on their license plate. That is a very spiritual,powerful symbol....not sure a baseball team with no ties to Native America would suffice to use such a powerful symbol. NM can get away with it as their state license plate because of the amount of reservations in the state. But, there are loads of great native art designs that would be cool.

Both ideas would be great, I think.

Clem summed it up best regarding Cleveland sports. As a boy it was always Browns and Indians for me. Cavs less so because of my age, NBA was not as popular when I was a kid. Dad always took me to football and baseball games. But, in the end I was absolutely crazy about the Browns. Cavs win was great, Indians win will be even better and special but, a Browns championship will be euphoric and really make me collapse in tears.

I agree that the logo is horrific. I am always surprised when I hear how attached so many people are to Chief Wahoo. You should [or maybe you shouldn't read...lol] all the comments to the various articles on the subject. Man, people are going off the hook and their anger and disdain are oozing off of the page.

I think there are so many great ways to honor Native Americans. There's a plethora of proud, magnificent symbols that would be so much better than that little, red, obnoxious figure.

I am offended by the name "Browns". Racist?

I wouldn't care.

If they changed the logo or the name doesn't matter to me. If the native Americans want it changed because its highly offensive to them than so be it.

They will still be an MLB team in cleveland. And I'll just buy new hats representing the new logos and such.

Hell, that means the ownership is about doing what they feel is right. So I'll have a lot of respect for that.

I'm not Native American. So I don't pretend to be an expert on Native American relations. If they are genuinely offended, then the logo needs to change.

Why are Native Americans offended when they aren't Indians. People from India are Indians. Columbus screwed up and called the wrong people the wrong name.

It depends on the group of people, honestly. Some prefer Indian. I've struck wahoo out of my wardrobe, and that's in respect of Native Americans and Alaskan Natives. None of them have a problem with the name Indian when my students or community members ask me about the baseball team in my hometown.

Same thing goes for Alaskan Native. There are 12 different tribes of Alaskan Natives, and some people like the word eskimo but some don't. It translates to "one who eats raw meat"; this was used to dehumanize the cultures up here.

Whats wrong with eating raw meat? People pay big bucks to eat raw meat in high brow foodie restaurants.

Whats wrong with eating raw meat? People pay big bucks to eat raw meat in high brow foodie restaurants.

I thought these were excellent questions. I believe only two people have answered them........Clem and Swish. I'll answer them, too.

1. a. I would be a bigger fan. That would prove to me that they are sensitive to the Native Americans and would honor them in a positive light. Like I said earlier, there are thousands of great ways to honor Native Americans.


2. d. It wouldn't bother me at all and I don't wear hats. However, I don't think it's the name that is offensive. It's that nasty little red creature.

I laughed out loud on this one. Thanks!!

Glad I could be of service!