DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Major League Baseball Continues to Waffle on Chief Wahoo

I've been avoiding the meat of this conversation because I don't really care which way it goes but I do think this:

I don't and have never thought that Chief Wahoo was a 'racist' caricature. I never thought of it as anything more than a logo.

I seriously doubt that in the over 100 year period that Chief Wahoo was a logo for the Cleveland Indians anyone felt any sort of 'racial superiority' due to the logo.

I seriously doubt that the people that designed Chief Wahoo were thinking 'yeah, we're sticking to those injuns aren't we'?
They were designing a logo for a sports team.

I am incredibly confident that not one fan of the Cleveland Indians in the entirety of the teams history is a fan of the Cleveland Indians because of Chief Wahoo for racist reasons.

I had a thought a couple days ago whilst enjoying some Canes Chicken Fingers. Has anyone played Donkey Kong or Super Mario Bros. for race related reasons?

No.

But as an Italian I could be offended by the fact that the main character of Nintendo Corp is an Italian plumber with a huge mustache that runs through sewer pipes in order to get a girl.

Ya get my point?

What was the motivation behind the logo? I doubt it was racist.

Chief Wahoo isn't a bucktoothed middle finger salute caricature either. It's a cartoon caricature of a native American with a smile and a feather in his head dress. If the team was named something else it would've just as easily been a caricature of that.

Anyway, if the logo goes it goes. I'll always have some nostalgia about it from watching Tribe games with my brothers and my grandfather, but the Tribe will still be here regardless.

Italians, Irish, Polish, etc. never faced cultural genocide, and physical genocide over blood-drunk manifest destiny. You know who did? Native Americans, and partly Alaskan Natives.

The above is why I find issue with Wahoo. There's not many Native Americans as other minority groups, and I sure bet the tune would be different if there were more around.

Ted, you expressed your opinion well and did not insult any other posters while doing so. Nice job.

I am not asking you to agree, but I wanted to briefly speak to a couple of your points.

I am Italian, also. I get what you are saying, but there aren't any professional teams that I know of that have a logo of an Italian guy w/a big nose as their logo.

You may be correct that the original intention of Chief Wahoo wasn't racist, but if it does offend a certain group of people, then why not just change it. I get that there are going to be some people that are offended by every little thing, but I think it's pretty easy to see why people are offended by Chief Wahoo.

As was said earlier, there are countless ways to keep the name and honor Native Americans. A Native American on a horse, a head dress, a solitary, strong figure, and N. American symbol, etc are all impressive logos and would actually honor Native Americans rather than mock their appearance.

Not sure about a headdress either. Didn't the Illinois get rid of it from their helmet because of similar concerns? The headdress was a powerful symbol worn for specific reasons by specific leaders in their social ladder. I think any symbol we did use we would need to sit down with a tribal council of various leaders from throughout the country and discuss how to do it sensitively if at all. Even Notre Dame retired their drunk, brawling leprechaun. It was a stereotype just like Wahoo. Baseball logos, traditionally have been pretty minimal and classic. Boston, LA, Detroit, St. Louis, Cincinnati, NY etc. so, the Block "C" and Cursive "I" work just fine and run no risk of being offensive. The only thing with the Cursive "I" is kids today do not learn how to write in cursive so, on its own (without the word "Indians" to support it) the younger generation don't know what it is. That's a fact because when I wear my hat here on the west coast I have had younger people ask me what and who it is! The block "C" is probably our best bet for immediate recognition.

Washington definitely need to change their name. The Washington Senators is a classic name in homage to older DC teams. They should use that again.

Good points.

yeah, it's all perspective. As an Irish guy I could be offended by ND

I have read everyone's "Feelings" on the subject and have decided I will stay with the facts...

9 out of 10 Native Americans are not offended.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new...5f9a_story.html

Your link does not work.

Try it now.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new...5f9a_story.html

Thanks, but that is not about Chief Wahoo. You weren't trying to deceive the lazy people, were you---40?

I went to see my guitar repair guy (Jason) today at Erie Street Guitars. He told me he has a few friends that are American Indians and sure enough they are all offended by our Indians logo.

I didn't think it was really like that but I guess it is.... (?)...

If 9 out of 10 aren't bothered by "REDSKINS" I am pretty sure at least 8 out of 10 could care less about a cartoon for crying out loud!

No... you aren't offended.
We both know that you're using an example of absurdity to make a point. Your point falls flat.

It was clever.... almost. But not quite.

Let me 'break this down' for you in case you're too full of yourself to actually see this issue from someone else's point-of-view.



Try this one on for size:
"The Cleveland Jigaboos."




Now, 40- Imagine that a nationally-recognized sports team displays a cartoon-ized, over-the-top version of this type of monstrosity as its official logo... and YOU (and your family) are the 'butt of the joke.'


I thank God every day that I don't root for a team that's known as the "Cleveland Jigaboos."

My Team was named after the first coach who actually integrated the NFL.

My biracial, tan-looking, 60-year-old azz will wear the name Cleveland 'Browns' with pride, because My Team (and My Coach) actually did something to make a difference- when no other single person would.

Beyond my 'family ties' to The Cleveland Browns, I have a personal loyalty to them as a member of a oppressed class of American Citizen- and I love the fact that Paul Brown (and The Cleveland Browns) were a sports-based entity that placed achievement over 1940's/'50's sociopolitical norms.

If ANY American Citizens are offended at a sports team's mascot/logo, it's an issue worthy of exploration. It's what we do, as a 'nation of immigrants.'

It may seem stupid and unnecessary to some... but those people don't run s#!+ in America like they did in the past... we ALL do.


And that's why 'Chief Wahoo' is relevant- and worthy of discourse.


Make all the jokes you want, but this is not really a joking matter.
'Chief Wahoo' is a throwback to a time when the dominant culture could display 'anyone else' in whatever way they wanted.

That was 1946.
It's now 2016.

"Chief Wahoo" is past-due to be sent to The Pasture.
As a country, we've moved on past those days.

_______________

Find a logo doesn't make First Nation citizens look like clowns, or change the name of the team.

'Chief Wahoo' is a throwback to "the good old days."

The "good old days" was only good.... for some Americans.

DUMP THE CARTOON. REPLACE IT WITH SOMETHING THAT ISN'T AN INSULT.
It can't be that hard, can it?

Big difference between the name Indians and the name you used.

In every sport, and in many businesses, caricatures and cartoon characters are used to easily identify the company/product. I gotta tell you the truth ..... that stupid C is really close tho the Cubs C, and I worry that they might "accidentally" credit our wins to them ..... (yeah, that's a little sarcasm there)

I think that our country has become one in which people think that they must be free of being offended, and in which anything that might offend someone must be stricken from the face of the earth forever. if only 10% of Native Americans are offended by the Indians, well ..... i bet that you can find any number of things that offend a greater percentage of any sector of society. heck, in today's world, 50% seem to spend their time offending, and the other being offended, and back and forth. (especially in political season) I am far more offended by the 2 (OK the 4) Bozos running for President than I would/could ever be by the name of a business, or their caricature logo. If someone wants to use a big fat red haired (well, it used to be red) white guy with a cane as a logo .... well, I'd be ok with it, but I think that a lot of other people would be offended, or maybe even repulsed ...... for me, however, I have a lot more important things to occupy my thoughts, time, and energy.

That's just my $0.02 worth.

The issue is not w/the name "Indians." The issue is w/the caricature that is Chief Wahoo. This is an excerpt from a larger article:




You also referred to the "stupid C." The C is not stupid, but Chief Wahoo dehumanizes an entire group of people and speaks to a time where racism wasn't merely tolerated, but embraced.

I've been avoiding this conversation as well, but I have to weigh in here. My son is adopted from Guatemala and is almost 100% Native American (Maya) according to DNA testing and info we know about his birth family. I asked him what he thought of Chief Wahoo, and he is absolutely NOT offended. He said it doesn't resemble a person nearly enough, and that it is meant as a symbol of pride, not racism.

Have they surveyed large groups of Native Americans in the US? If they say it doesn't bother them, maybe that's the case. Not that it doesn't offend them "enough" to bother with, maybe it doesn't offend them at all. I don't know the answer to that, and unless someone has surveyed a large group of Native Americans in this country, I don't believe anyone really knows.

The Boy Who Cried Wolf


There once was a shepherd boy who was bored as he sat on the hillside watching the village sheep. To amuse himself he took a great breath and sang out, "Wolf! Wolf! The Wolf is chasing the sheep!"

The villagers came running up the hill to help the boy drive the wolf away. But when they arrived at the top of the hill, they found no wolf. The boy laughed at the sight of their angry faces.

"Don't cry 'wolf', shepherd boy," said the villagers, "when there's no wolf!" They went grumbling back down the hill.

Later, the boy sang out again, "Wolf! Wolf! The wolf is chasing the sheep!" To his naughty delight, he watched the villagers run up the hill to help him drive the wolf away.

When the villagers saw no wolf they sternly said, "Save your frightened song for when there is really something wrong! Don't cry 'wolf' when there is NO wolf!"

But the boy just grinned and watched them go grumbling down the hill once more.

Later, he saw a REAL wolf prowling about his flock. Alarmed, he leaped to his feet and sang out as loudly as he could, "Wolf! Wolf!"

But the villagers thought he was trying to fool them again, and so they didn't come.

At sunset, everyone wondered why the shepherd boy hadn't returned to the village with their sheep. They went up the hill to find the boy. They found him weeping.

"There really was a wolf here! The flock has scattered! I cried out, "Wolf!" Why didn't you come?"
-------------------------------------------

-To me, the crying of Racism at every turn means the people will not be listening when something serious happens.

We see this reaction today to some very serious problems.

Chief Wahoo? Seriously?

Can you explain exactly how you will suffer if they change the logo to a more proud representation of a Native American?

I love Chief Wahoo. Hopefully, it never goes away. Call me selfish, but it's a part of the Cleveland Indians.

People that say, "who cares, it's just a logo, changing it doesn't matter, etc...," forget how hard the city fought to keep to the the Browns name and colors when the team moved because that tradition was part of what made the Browns the Browns.

Colors, names, logos matter to a lot of the diehard fans and fans who grew up with the Indians as a part of them.

Go Tribe!

It would effect me about the same as those who cry we need a logo on the Browns helmet. It would make me Puke.

And I will just repost this:

If you puking is what we have to deal with once a culturally insensitive and racist stereotype illustration/caricature is removed from a baseball team's hat/jersey....I think that is something the world can live with.

PM me your address and I will mail you a barf bag.

How are you guys so attached to a logo when your football team doesn't have one and the Cavs logo is just a letter?

I don't think the name is offensive either, I think the logo is the focus of the debate right now... with that said, even if they adopted a better logo, there is going to be some percentage of people for whom that isn't going to be enough so the debate would rage on.

The name Indians and/or any logo, no matter how respectful you try to be, is going to be an issue for some...

So my thought is, why change the logo and just postpone the fight over the name? If you are going to make a change, why not just go ahead and completely fix the problem and leave no room for future debate.

In fact, if we hold on and win the World Series this year, I think that would make this the PERFECT year to change it. Indians win the WS in its last year as the Indians? That would be a pretty cool story line.

Should a team with fans all over the country limit itself to just Cleveland? I find that offensive.

Indians is offensive.
The Chief is offensive.

So according to many of these posts our new name should be...

The North Central Blands.

We need to talk with what remains of the Seneca and Iroquois; those were the main groups that the Erie Native Americans aligned themselves with.

Tonight the entire world will be treated to a view of Chief Wahoo in all his glory as we win the World Series.

Children and adults will line up to purchase everything with the mighty Chief on it.

What a spectacular day it is.

Go Cleveland Indians Go!

I truly think you're a character not based in reality. Whoever you are, go and start a TV show. You'd make a great conservative Jon Stewart/Stephen Colbert. No way do you really act like this in real life.

Yea, I was wrong. The Indians are getting clobbered.

Yea we're gonna have to change the name just to have a fresh start if we blow this 3-1 lead.

Perhaps if we pray to the Wahoo.

He is Chief Boohoo tonight.

Rocket is cranky because he has been running around placing little pieces of electrical tape on his tv screen to cover Wahoo logos when they appear. Exhausting.

I'll help out!

Been reading this site for awhile now but never posted before, but thought I'd add a little insight as a native born Clevelander living the last nearly three decades in Redskins/Braves territory in DC/VA/NC. Being a huge Indians fan I've followed the debate very closely as we typically are mentioned in any article about it.

First off, the Washington Post most definitely did not publish the poll results to defend the Redskins name. The Post actually was the biggest voice pushing for the name to be changed. They did the poll thinking they would show support that they were right that the name needed changed because it overwhelmingly offended so many Native Americans, but were shocked at the results. It really took the wind out of their sails. They have since backed down but still support changing the name, just not so vocally since their argument was based on it offending so many Native Americans.

Second, most of the protests are by a small but very vocal group that travel around protesting many teams. They do not simply want Chief Wahoo gone, but also the Indians name. They want all references gone, including the Redskins, Braves, Chicago Blackhawks, and KC Chiefs.

The Braves did deflect some criticism by getting rid of their old Chief Noc-A-Homa years ago, but that hasn't stopped these groups from wanting them to change their name completely. So simply getting rid of Chief Wahoo will not stop the debate.

Now as to how I feel about it personally. I grew up with Chief Wahoo and love it. It is a symbol of my pride and love of the team. I wish there was no controversy and that it could stay permanently, but since it has been pushed to secondary status I fully believe it will soon be removed completely. I just hope that it is allowed to be kept historically and not tried to be wiped even from the history books. Such as the old sign from Municipal Stadium kept on display (I saw it at the Western Reserve Historical Society museum years ago, but not sure if it is still there).

So, what to do? If Cleveland is allowed to compromise and keep the Indians name with the support of some Native American tribes, I hope that Chief Wahoo can be replaced with a new symbol that is unique, classic, timeless, and easily identifiable of the team. The block 'C' and cursive 'I' just don't stand out enough to me. It needs to be like Chief Wahoo where you can tell what it is from far away and know it is for the Indians. I hope also that they don't try making some modern, trendy design that will be outdated in a few years. It should be something that looks like the team that was one of the original founding members of the American League that Cleveland is. As if they always have had the symbol and always will. It should be done as a change that isn't done simply for the sake of some people complaining about it, but rather as something that will be a huge improvement for the team and all the fans. I wish I had the answer as to what that is, but I don't.

What I'm afraid of is that just changing the symbol won't be enough. There already are broadcasters refusing to say Indians and Redskins. It would be neat to use a historical name if it came to that, but the list according to Wiki is: Forest Citys, Spiders, Infants, Lake Shores, Bluebirds, Blues, Broncos, and Napoleons. Spiders is the only one of those I'd consider, and the biggest thing it has going for it is Cy Young playing for the team under that name.

As an aside, if they are going to go for a big change I think it would be neat for them to adjust the colors to match the Cavs. They already are using the navy blue, so just darken the red to the wine color and maybe even add gold as a third minor color. The vast majority of MLB teams have combinations with red and blue, but no others have those specific colors with a dark blue and dark red. Only Arizona uses a darker red color, but without blue.

Regardless, yes, I will still cheer for Cleveland baseball no matter what the team is called, what their symbol is, or what colors they wear. I just may not like the changes, and cheer with a sour taste in my mouth.

Well 252, your first post was a memorable one.

I rarely read such a lengthy post word-for-word but I read yours.

I was going to stay away from this thread and topic because there's some really stupid posts on it. (Or at least there were. Including my own which were mercifully deleted by the moderators)

Yes, those vocal dissenters would just move on to their next "protest project" if Cleveland eliminated Chief Wahoo.

Context is everything.

If I thought there was one iota of hate or ill-will regarding a logo, I'd be right there saying so.

Do you really think that this is important? I mean REALLY?

Why don't we ask the Indians who were on the trail of tears what they think of a image of an Indian means to them? Yeah buddy, now that's important. I bet this so called group of protesters would not even make up a 1/4 pct. of all American Indians. Yeah lets change everything just to make a couple of Indians feel better about what? I think their just blowing the 'ol horn just to draw attention to themselves. Wouldn't be the first time a group of some kind did the same thing, just looking for their 15 mins. of fame.

Thanks. And yeah, sorry about the length. It's a complex issue full of passion on both sides and so tough to talk about without going deeper into it.

As I said I wish it were a non-issue, but it appears it is something that in this day and age will be dealt with whether we like it or not. So hopefully whatever is done gets done the right way.

Welcome to the boards, 252.... and thanks for sharing your thoughts with us!

But keeping a racist logo is really important and retiring it will cause millions emotional angst.