DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Major League Baseball Continues to Waffle on Chief Wahoo

Retiring it will cause millions to be brought into the MLB and Indians coffers. People will buy all their old gear now for memorabilia and all their new gear for next seasons run.

That is a different issue. I was responding to a post about individuals being offended.

I was just playing off your "millions" statement, nothing personal.

Truth. This is why it will happen sooner rather than later.

Racist to who? And how do you know every one takes it that way?
If you read the stories on here most if not all Indians think this is a non-story. Why should we fret over the slim few?

J/C

252 comes with an extremely respectful differing opinion. I'll ask a few questions to everyone.

Questions:
How many true Native Americans live in the US?
How does this population size compare to other minority groups?
What's the socioeconomic status of those who live on reservations?
How would a mascot of a similar minority group (African Americans, Chinese, Japanese, Jewish, Arabic, etc.) be viewed if it exaggerated false stereotypes of that group?
What can be said about the cultural and mortal genocide of Native Americans?

I was simply trying to point out that in the grand scheme of things....This is simply silly. How many times through the years have we just stopped, dropped everything, to cater to every whiney punk that seems to have an issue with something?
Very few. We need to stop being ridiculous and start paying attention to the real problems.

I have taken notice over the many years of my life that it is
usually the White, Bleeding Heart Liberals who cause most of these troubles for our Society over such small things.

Ask the Native Americans and for the most part they could care less. They are then reminded that these things are Racist!

Personally I wonder if some of my fellow Whites have some kind of problem with their own skin color and wish to stand out as the great protectors of other skin colors.

Well, that is what I wonder anyway. I still prefer to see us all as just Americans.

I see you tried to be sneaky and incorporate your poll again without directly posting it.

No worries! Like I said, it is a very passionate issue. I'm not offended by anything that's been said. In fact, I'd agree with much of what is being said.

It's a small but vocal group that is complaining. How genuine are they? Are they doing it for attention? What exactly do they expect to get out of it? Does it truly offend them? How many people does it need to offend to need changed? I couldn't answer these questions. I just see the writing on the wall that change is coming.

Will the Indians use it to make money? You can bet on that! Just look at all the different uniforms we've had through the years. We've probably had the current ones longer than others, but they have constantly tweaked them. In fact, they've already announced the cream jerseys will be gone this next season and possibly replaced. And who here can honestly say that they absolutely won't buy whatever the put out next?

As for your questions:

How many true Native Americans live in the US?
2,932,248 Native American only, 2,288,331 mixed with Native American, for a total of 5,220,579.

How does this population size compare to other minority groups?
0.9% Native American, 4.8% Asian, 12.6% Black, 72.4% White, 2.9% Other/Multiracial.

What's the socioeconomic status of those who live on reservations?
Not sure how to find this out exactly. Found that 78% of Native Americans do not live on reservations. It is widely reported that many who live on reservations live in poverty. Though, as stereotypical as the casinos can sound, they have brought a lot of money to some. Some places the money is shared, others it isn't.

How would a mascot of a similar minority group be viewed if it exaggerated false stereotypes of that group?
With the current state of PC in the world and everyone seeming to look for something to be offended by, I think we all know the answer to that. Any new mascot is going to be very closely scrutinized.

What can be said about the cultural and mortal genocide of Native Americans?
Not much. It is an issue that should be handled sensitively. That's why, no matter what the Cleveland Indians do, they ought to seek out a conversation with tribes with connections to the area to give legitimacy to whatever it is they do. The problem is that there doesn't appear to be a large group nearby to make that easier like in other areas of the country. Someone more knowledgeable on NE Ohio Native Americans could possibly answer that.

Down here in NC we used to have the Kinston Indians for many years as the High A affiliate. In 2011 the Carolina Mudcats sold their AA team and bought them and moved them to their stadium in Zebulon outside Raleigh and renamed them the Mudcats. Kinston has been without a team until this next season, with the Rangers bringing a new team to Kinston. They had a contest asking fans to choose the new name, and nobody liked any of the names. Just the other day they announced the team would be called the Down East Wood Ducks. Down East is a nickname for much of coastal NC. They're trying to get everyone pumped up, but most are very disappointed. It makes me very wary of any changes to the Indians.

By the way, they just came out with their schedule yesterday, and I'm already circling August to go to games when they play their only home series against Lynchburg (the Indians new A team).

The Mashantucket Pequot Indian Tribe own Foxwoods Resort Casino - the 4th largest casino in the world.

The Mohegan Indian Tribe own Mohegan Sun Casino - the 10th largest casino in the world.

Both casinos are right here in tiny Connecticut.

The Pequots and Mohegans are the only two federally recognized Tribes in Connecticut.

Both the Pequot and Mohegan people are very, very wealthy.

They didn't use to be. I'll bet they don't feel they were the victims of racism by the Cleveland Indians logo.

I bet they couldn't care less.

Welcome 252, your posts are well thought out and make for good reading. I don't agree with everything you say but it is somehow refreshing.

For a balanced view of our relationship with Native Americans, read about the Wyoming Massacre in Wyoming Pennsylvania to learn just how peaceful and kind our enemy was in those days. It will be eye opening.

/c

All 'hot-button issues' aside, I predict that at some time, Wahoo will most likely be gone... and perhaps not even because of any social or political pressures.

But mainly because of this immutable fact of life: nothing lasts forever. Pretty much, the only constant in this life is change. We can react to this fact one of two ways:

1. We can accept its inevitability and adapt.
2. Fight a losing battle.

This goes way beyond a team mascot... and it's been at the center of a lot of human suffering throughout history.

_______ *bring it home, Clem* ___________

* We watch sports on 4K TV screens the size of a room's wall, when we once huddled around the Philco to listen to games.

* We walked or rode horses to work and back. Now, we have semi-autonomous cars equipped with satellite navigation ("Daddy- what's a map?"). Some of us fly coast-to-coast in 4 hours to do a day's work.

* We carry palm-sized computers in our pockets that tote more power than the banks of computers used by N.A.S.A. to put Neil and Buzz on the moon.

* One last case in point (not to put too fine a point on it ;)): The original Cleveland Browns are now in Baltimore, MD.

So... sooner or later, Wahoo will most likely be gone, just because of the transient nature of life. Maybe new ownership will change the name of the team. Maybe the next generation of fans clamor for a mascot that doesn't look like a Saturday morning cartoon. Maybe it will happen is such a way that no one is called a racist for liking 'the old ways.'

Who knows?

For myself, I always thought Wahoo looked kind of weird and creepy, even when I was a little kid. My Pops bought me a Wahoo bobblehead when I was 5 or 6 (damn... how much would that thing be worth now?). It sat on my bookcase shelf for about 3 days, before I packed it in a box on the floor of my closet. I woke up in the middle of the night, and the light from the back yard was spilling across his leering, grinning face. That was it for me. (...and you can shut up with the 'wimp' talk- you know you hate clowns for the same or similar reasons... )

To all true Wahoo fans: enjoy him while he's here... but find a way to adapt once he's gone.

Because nothing lasts forever.

I find it to be racist. I already know that people like you don't find it racist. I also think you are confusing the articles about the name Redskins w/the thoughts about Chief Wahoo. I have posted several articles that addresses that. I am betting you didn't read them. I am also betting that since you are not offended, no one else should be either.

The Atlanta Braves mascot is a screaming indian head. I dont know if that is much better but people here dont complain about it. Not that I have heard anyway.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ec/89/2e/ec892e669422a6189b25d823e0e8b71e.jpg

I did not have a real problem w/their logo. At least it looked somewhat like a real Native American warrior.

However, Atlanta has changed their logo over the years. Here is a link:

http://www.sportslogos.net/logos/list_by_team/51/Atlanta_Braves/

You were a poor traumatized child who grew up to be a Wahoophobic. God help us all.

Yep, times change, Wahoo and the Indian name may have to go but I won't let it go without a fight. Coolest logo in Baseball will not go away because some Lily Liver is offended. Not on my watch anyway. Back to back, step off 20 paces and turn, for here we go.

Calling someone a derogatory name because he is brave enough to fight the majority is not even close to being manly.

What would you know about such things?

Somebody pass the onions!

Lily liver

Lmao

I just KNEW you'd be the one to "take a stand" without considering the basis of my proposition.

Fight your ass off with a roar, but please... on me-
-Enjoy your extinction.

Darwin always wins.

No exceptions, T. Rex.
(-with your tiny, tiny 'forelimbs'...)

If T. Rex was still around imagine the stink Sinclair would be in.

Why would T. Rex care about Sinclair?

All DawgTalkers members,

"I have to say this, I have to say this. Clem hit my forelimbs."

"Nobody has ever hit my forelimbs. I have never heard of this."

"Look at these forelimbs," (holding up his forelimbs to the audience.) "Are they small forelimbs? And he referred to my forelimbs -- if they are small, something else must be small."

"I guarantee you there is no problem, I guarantee you!"

I love the Indians but think the logo needs to change... I like the C and would love to see wahoo changed up or abandoned... I agree with vers that the braves logo at least looks like a real person... Wahoo looks like a drunken cartoon...

When my son and my daughter were born, we gave them names that my wife and I liked. We thought they fit with the last name well and had a little bit of family history included in them. If, as young adults, either of them decided they wanted to change their name.. they would be no less my son and daughter. Neither would the Indians be any less my favorite baseball team if they changed their name... So if the name "Indians" and the Chief Wahoo logo are offensive to any portion of Native Americans, then change it. Is it just a matter of proving the team doesn't have to give in to make a group of people happy? Is that what this is about?

I find it sadly ironic that many of the people who adamantly oppose changing the name to something less offensive are also the same people who are offended when somebody wishes them "happy holidays" instead of "merry Christmas"...

Maybe some people are just sick and tired of all the politically correct nonsense censoring anything and everything you say as offensive to someone to the point you can't even wipe your arse because your offending someone.

There is nothing malicious intended by anything in any of the team sports names. the only problem is some over sensitive attention seekers who can only get the limelight by being a bunch of whiney cry babies and rewarded for their stupid behavior because if they whine loud enough over nonsense then everyone says oh poor baby and they get their attention fix that their sad pathetic lives crave.

Prob same nutjobs that think everyone needs a trophy instead of just the winners because poor ralphie sucks at sports and will cry about it instead of just dealing with it and working hard to get better.

Thing is- it's only been about 20 years of being required to consider any other POV... after never having to even care at all-
-for more than 300.

If folks are whining now, just think how they'll sound over the next 20, as this country keeps changing.


#firstworldproblems

I agree. Even if the intent is not malicious, that is one insulting caricature used to represent a race of people.

"insulting caricature to represent a race of people."

Chief Wahoo represents a baseball team not a race of people.

A baseball team that uses a name of a ethnic group.

Wahoo shows a backwards view on ALL indigenous groups in this country. Groups that got exterminated through mortal and cultural genocide. The uproar would expound at a louder volume if blood-drunk manifest destiny didn't all but wipe them out.

I like baseball more than football. I like the Chief and don't think it racist at all.

Get over it.

Get over what?

Yourself.

What?

So now your a light bulb with the whats?

What do you mean? I think I was pretty clear in what I said.

Oh, I get it now. A guy who likes the offensive Chief Wahoo is now resorting to insulting other posters w/out provocation.

Surprising............

I think there exist some fundamental questions that exist and need to be addressed before we can form a solid opinion on what we should do about chief wahoo and about names like indians.

We argue about whether or not the chief is racist. What makes something racist? We need to come up with a consensus definition as a society. Then the chief get that criteria applied to him.

Next, how many people need to be offended by something before we should change it? I have heard some people say something along the lines of "If even one person is offended ..." To me that is ridiculous. Somebody is always going to be offended by something. I can see PETA coming out that they are offended by the Bears and Cubs and Lions etc. So then we would need to change those names too. Well let's just get rid of all team nicknames. Now I'm offended by the lack of nicknames, so now we need to bring them back. So what is the critical mass? 1%?, 10%? a majority?

I don't have answers to these questions. But until we do as a society, there will continually be conflicts of opinion on this. I don't know. Even if we answer these questions, there is going to be someone that disagrees with that definition or number.

A baseball team named after a race of people, which uses Chief Wahoo as a representative of that race of people. Not sure how anyone can see otherwise.