Well by God, we ought to ban chief wahoo and also ban the word eskimo.
I've finally seen the light. If it offends even 1% of the population, ban it. Change it.
That'll fix things.
i want to remind the board that this logic has been used throughout history to justify bigotry:
why should we end slavery? they aren't the majority. they need to get over it!!!
why should we allow women to vote? they aren't the majority. all they do is cook and clean!!! get over it!!
segregation? blacks aren't the majority!! don't change jim crow!! they need to get over it!!
the japanese? pfffttt...it's wartime!! those japs need to get over it!! they aren't the majority so who cares!!!
the irish? lolololol, those dirty leprechauns want to be treated equals? they aren't the majority!! get over it!!!
The chinese want equal pay? lmfao, tells those dirty chinks to get over it!! they aren't the majority!! shut up and build those railroads!!
________
Sorry if i derailed your thread, Vers. but comments like his and Peen's really bother me to the core, and i felt the need to point out how their arguments have been used throughout history as way to try and keep things the way their were.
Native Americans have been getting shafted in this country for about as long as blacks have been. probably longer. guys like Arch and Peen aren't a small group who thinks like that, either.
it's a LOT of people that think like that in this country. the majority? God i hope not, but it's enough to be worried about it. if it ain't Pure White, they don't want to change, or do anything about issues that affect other people, or put groups in an unfair and ignorant light.
You and other people have already pointed out that if the logo and/or name changes, then does it really affect any of them?
and some already said it doesn't matter.
so why are they still arguing about it? Peen answered that in another thread.
Cause him and others think their country is dead. and they want to "Take it back".
like i said before, we all know what that means now.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Thanks for the response Rocket. I don't ever agree with you on anything ever, nothing, ever, but I do see what you see from that post.
I was mostly wondering if you were delusional about life on top of the world and I now see you are not. You see clearly the wonderful good of their lives and the tragic bad.
You asked about where I traveled and the roads and I have to ask, What Roads??? You can't possibly call those paths, roads! The Alaska Highway almost crippled me and that was a good road.
Traveled about 3/4 of the giant state of Alaska, started in the Kenai, up and over to the Yukon, north of Fairbanks.
We started out as , and still today , are the United States of America .. As many may guess I am an Old States Rights advocate and throw the condition of the State of the Union at the feet of a Over the Top Federalization of sed Union ..
I don't give a Blank what folks in Californian , or Oregon , or New York think about the name of The Cleveland Indians and THEIR FANS WANT .. Its our tradition they want to step on and sanitize .. Get the Blank out of MY LIFE !
I don't give a Blank what folks in Californian , or Oregon , or New York think about the name of The Cleveland Indians and THEIR FANS WANT .. Its our tradition they want to step on and sanitize .. Get the Blank out of MY LIFE !
What does this have to do with people in CA, OR, NY? It has to do with a racist, insensitive, stereotype caricature of an oppressed people.
So, I really don't understand the point you are trying to make.
I don't give a Blank what folks in Californian , or Oregon , or New York think about the name of The Cleveland Indians and THEIR FANS WANT .. Its our tradition they want to step on and sanitize .. Get the Blank out of MY LIFE !
What does this have to do with people in CA, OR, NY? It has to do with a racist, insensitive, stereotype caricature of an oppressed people.
So, I really don't understand the point you are trying to make.
Disagree. It has to do with PERCEIVED racism, PERCEIVED insensitivity and a PERCEIVED stereotype by Liberals while those they claim are offended find no offense. It is once again the squeaky wheel in need of grease.
Why would a Major league Baseball Team in the past or today Go out of it's way to be divisive ? There was no malice in choosing the name Cleveland Indians or the Cleveland Buffalo's or what ever .. And NO I DON'T CARE WHAT A HANDFUL OF FOLKS ON THE EAST OR WEST COAST THINK ..
Now you certainly have the right to disagree , resent , despise my point of view , or even me .. But ( as of today ) I still have the right to Voice my opinion ..
You have a right to your opinion and the problem is theirs when they call names and attack a free American for having an opinion.
You sir are no lily liver!
LOL...........anyone else catch this?
Are you really that silly? You, yes even you, have a right to your opinion.
You see, I have used you to prove my point. I had posted the comment, "Coolest logo in Baseball will not go away because some Lily Liver is offended."
You immediately PERCEIVED that as my saying "Vers is a Lily Liver", just like you have PERCEIVED our Indian's Logo is Racist, just as you PERCEIVED the Indians name is offensive to Native Americans, just like you PERCEIVED that Native Americans are offended.
The problem has never been the team or its logo, it is with your powers of Perception of the world around you.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
The first known use of lily-livered was in 1605, when 40 was just a young lad. From the medieval belief that the liver was the seat of courage, and the pale color of the lily flower. A person who had no blood in their liver would have no courage and would thus be a coward.
I have no idea of what you are rambling on about other than you have no idea of what I was thinking and are trying to make things personal because your argument for keeping the logo is so painfully weak.
..' because your argument for keeping the logo is so painfully weak. "
Good grief Sir , how do you arrive at that conclusion ?.. We are a Nation of over 300 million folks .. Just how many do think give a flipin crap about our LOGO ? ... And if they disagree with you , are they ( that could care less ) all racist ??
MLB is a multi billion dollar corporate entity. If they feel any symbol in their league will cost them money or too much bad publicity, that symbol will be gone.
It has nothing to do with our wants or our feelings. It's about their business. It would have been much easier to change it had the Indians not made the world series. I would tend to think sales soared because of the series. But let Cleveland have a few bad seasons in a row and watch the symbol of Chief Wahoo be gone.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
MLB is a multi billion dollar corporate entity. If they feel any symbol in their league will cost them money or too much bad publicity, that symbol will be gone.
It has nothing to do with our wants or our feelings. It's about their business. It would have been much easier to change it had the Indians not made the world series. I would tend to think sales soared because of the series. But let Cleveland have a few bad seasons in a row and watch the symbol of Chief Wahoo be gone.
I'm betting that the Commish will meet with the Indians this offseason (which is already a given) and Wahoo will quietly die.... and Cleveland will magically end up winning the World Series the same year that Wahoo goes away for good.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
40, guess you're trying to show us your real identify. Lay off the LSD bro.
Last edited by Swish; 11/07/1602:08 PM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Waterdawg...I still don't understand what the west coast and east coast has to do with this debate. It has nothing to do with those liberals on the left coast or in NYC & Boston. It has to do with an awareness that what was once deemed acceptable in a very racist day and age is now no longer acceptable in a much more culturally aware age.
And, for the record....Yes, Portland is a liberal city as is Eugene, Oregon but, for the most part once you venture outside of those two areas it is a very Republican state that still likes its guns & bible. It is not to dissimilar to W.Virginia in that respect. The coastal areas are poor, the logging areas depressed and the eastern 2/3 is sparse and mainly ranching and agriculture. The difference is....in a state with 4.5 million or so people 3/4 of the population lives in Portland, Salem & Eugene. So, it goes blue simply because of population density in that 2hr corridor of one another. Same can be said for Washington state and Seattle area. Outside of Seattle metropolitan area it is a pretty red state.
I will respond with "get over it" when the idiotic Chief Wahoo is retired.
It won't really bother me if it is retired. I am simply saying I don't think it a symbol of racisim. I have never seen a Native look like that. It's a friggen cartoon.
Plus, there will always be throw back sites where I can keep the Chief alive, at least as long as I am.
IMO it's a cool logo.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Go to an Alaskan Native village, or a Nstive American reservation, and mention "you're all to sensitive over these names and logos."
I'm sure they won't agree with you.
The Irish comparison never holds up. The Irish weren't practically wiped out mortally or culturally; Native Americans and Alaskan Natives faced that reality. Logos and names like "Wahoo", "Eskimo", and "Redskin" exist due to the genocide against indigenous cultures in our land.
I get it may just "be a cartoon" to you Peen, but lynchings were "just for fun to punish criminals" back in the day.
The point went over your head. Peen argued that Chief is just a cartoon, but I pointed out that lynchings weren't "a big deal" to some, either.
That doesn't make Wahoo magically okay.
I don't get the lynching part. I maintain it is just a logo with no racial overtones and you somehow compare it to lynchings, Jim Crow laws, slavery and all sorts of ridiculous comparisons.
I suspect we will never agree. That's ok, you are still a swell guy. We just disagree.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I will respond with "get over it" when the idiotic Chief Wahoo is retired.
It won't really bother me if it is retired. I am simply saying I don't think it a symbol of racisim. I have never seen a Native look like that. It's a friggen cartoon.
Plus, there will always be throw back sites where I can keep the Chief alive, at least as long as I am.
IMO it's a cool logo.
Peen don't you get it? All cartoons are evil.
Snaggle Tooth always saying exit stage left is offensive to those who wanted to exit stage right.
Foghorn Leghorn is racists to dogs because he always paddles them and picks on them.
Wile E. Coyote was racists against all Roadrunners too.
Not really. I suppose the context in which it is used could be deemed offensive, but on the whole, no, I don't.
See, intent is the key component. I don't think the Chief was created as a way to make fun of or demean Native people. Our teams name is the Indians and the Chief is a created logo. It's that simple. There isn't or wasn't some grand plan to demean people.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I will respond with "get over it" when the idiotic Chief Wahoo is retired.
It won't really bother me if it is retired. I am simply saying I don't think it a symbol of racisim. I have never seen a Native look like that. It's a friggen cartoon.
Plus, there will always be throw back sites where I can keep the Chief alive, at least as long as I am.
IMO it's a cool logo.
Peen don't you get it? All cartoons are evil.
Snaggle Tooth always saying exit stage left is offensive to those who wanted to exit stage right.
Foghorn Leghorn is racists to dogs because he always paddles them and picks on them.
Wile E. Coyote was racists against all Roadrunners too.
This type of response seems absurd and comes across as mocking others who don't share a similar opinion.
It's kinda like this:
--Retiring the Chief Wahoo logo will result in the Indians losing every game they play for eternity.
--All Indians fans will face irreparable mental and emotional angst because the team has a new logo.
--A proud representation of Native Americans would be an insult to white people across the globe.
See, intent is the key component. I don't think the Chief was created as a way to make fun of or demean Native people. Our teams name is the Indians and the Chief is a created logo. It's that simple. There isn't or wasn't some grand plan to demean people.
You honestly don't think the artist who designed the logo way back when wasn't biased by his society's view of Native Americans? Of course he was. While he may not himself have been outright racist towards Native Americans there is no way he could have grown up in that time period and not have been part of the society that devalued their culture. His drawing represents that cultural devaluing.
To be honest, it really isn't that much different from 1930's Hollywood's racist metaphor of 'King Kong'.
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