DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Colorado post-weed legalization...

For awhile I've been pretty interested in what the crime stats and how policing in general had been impacted by Colorado's legalization back in 2014. Here's an article I came across earlier to today. I'll post it then add some of my thoughts after it..

https://www.calibrepress.com/2016/11/rocky-mountain-highs-associated-lows/

----------------------------------------

Several states will be voting to legalize recreational marijuana this month, your state may be one of them. Colorado voters legalized medical marijuana in 2000 and recreational marijuana in January of 2014. The ability to buy cannabis is now as simple as going to a liquor store to buy a six pack of beer. Anyone over 21 years of age can enter a recreational marijuana shop and buy it for personal use or they can grow limited amounts at home.

Colorado’s hype over legalization has died down and the reality is settling in, but it is still controversial across the country. Recently Denver District Attorney Mitchell R. Morrissey was asked by the California anti-marijuana group No-on-64 campaign to answer two questions: 1. Did the crime rate go down? 2. Were the police freed to work on other crimes when recreational marijuana was legalized in Colorado?

His answer was, No.

Complexities Arisen

In an Oct. 12, 2016, letter, he wrote: “In the city of Denver, since the legalization of recreational marijuana, the number of crimes in Denver has grown by about 44 %, according to annual figures the city reported to the National Incident Based Reporting System. In 2015 in Denver alone, crime rose in every neighborhood in the city. The murder rate hit a decade high, 1,059 more cars were broken into, there were 903 more auto thefts, 321 more aggravated assaults and 231 more homes were broken into compared to 2014.”

Not all of this is attributable to the use of marijuana. But the increase during the period recreational marijuana has been legalized in Colorado might be correlated. I would add: Colorado also has not seen the decline of drug cartels within the state with the legalization of marijuana. We’ve had large seizures and federal cases filed here as a result of criminal enterprises from outside of Colorado and the United States. On Sept. 28, 2016, federal agents and local law enforcement authorities raided homes in rural Colorado seizing over 22,400 pounds of pot. A Denver Post article, on that date, stated: “illegal ‘pirate’ grows in homes and outdoors on federal lands have become a priority and concern for authorities.” Our local newspapers are full of articles outlining major crime associated marijuana, including homicides.

I appreciate Mr. Morrissey’s perspective and his willingness to address this issue. He also wrote that Denver police issued a 300% increase in unlawful public consumption of marijuana citations, had a 900% increase in the unlawful cultivation and manufacture of marijuana concentrate and the volume of marijuana seized increased from an average of 162 to 5,724 pounds per case.

It’s not uncommon to walk the neighborhoods of Denver or attend entertainment venues and smell marijuana smoke. Although it’s still illegal to smoke it in public, I see it all the time. I’ve observed people driving cars smoking it.

DA Morrissey outlined that traffic-related marijuana deaths increased 48%. The Denver police department attempts to staff more Drug Recognition Expert-trained officers (DRE) on the street. These officers are trained to recognize and process people suspected of driving under the influence of drugs, including marijuana. Unlike alcohol, it can be difficult for the average police officer to recognize and process someone for driving under the influence of marijuana.

When the legalization of marijuana was put on the ballot in Colorado, voters were told that much of the taxes were intended to benefit public programs and school systems. If this is so, why are many school districts asking for tax increases on the 2016 November ballot? A Denver Post article dated Oct. 30, 2016, outlined that in 2015 Colorado collected $135 million in marijuana taxes—a drop in the bucket for a $27-billion state budget.

The taxes collected from the sale of cannabis is a lot of money, but recreational marijuana affects other Colorado resources. Morrissey documented that marijuana-related emergency room visits have increased 49% and marijuana related calls to the poison center increased 100% since recreational marijuana were legalized. I believe this demonstrates there are many other unforeseen costs dealing with pot that increased taxes may not cover.

Colorado’s marijuana industry is big business. According to ColoradoPotGuide.com, as of December 2015 there are more than 2,500 marijuana business licenses in the state, 900 of which are for dispensaries. To illustrate how popular pot shops are becoming, the website states that there are more dispensaries in Colorado than Starbucks, McDonald’s, and 7-Elevens—combined.

Due to the potential of a lot of money being made and taxes that may be generated, many more states will probably vote to legalize it. I’m realistic enough to know that it’s here to stay and that it will affect the way we live. I was in line at the post office and a young couple from Texas told me they moved to Colorado for work because they could pass a drug test. In other words, so many Coloradans have marijuana in their systems that out-of-staters are taking the jobs.

Other than an increase in crime, my big concern is the message we are sending to our young people. Are we telling them it’s OK to smoke pot now that it’s legal? I’m aware of the arguments surrounding alcohol and marijuana and the relative societal costs of each. Although I haven’t addressed it, alcoholism is a national epidemic. I’m concerned that we are heading towards another dependency for our people.

Conclusion

On the CBS program 60 Minutes (aired Oct. 30, 2016) Colorado Governor John Hickenlooper was asked what advice he’d give other states seeking to legalize marijuana. His response was, “I’m not so confident to tell other states to go for it.”

My intent is not to tell you how to vote. But you should be aware of these issues as you do. If your state is looking to legalize it for recreational use, please consider all facts before voting.

Good thing they're raising their tax coffers on this. It sounds like they'll need it for the crime wave that comes with it.

The article I posted didn't mention it, but from what I was able to find, as of 2013 the population of Denver was a shaded under 650,000. The increases in those crime stats aren't negligible for a city that size. Something like that is felt by the community.

It also said that the cops had a 300% increase in citations for unlawful weed consumption (equivalent to your open container laws). This means they've had to direct a significantly more amount of time addressing the issue. I can tell you guys that with stats like these, the cops don't have to go hang out in any particular neighborhood targeting any particular group of people. And it's so prevalent it's basically being put in their face and their forced to address the issue.

as to the 900% increase stat in the same paragraph about concentrations and growing.. I'm not totally sure what they mean by all that in terms of enforcement. It could possibly be that these dispensaries are subject to local code inspections? Certain violations result in citations and civil fines?

I tried to be fair and highlight the portion where they aren't directly attributing the rise in crime to weed legalization. I don't think there is necessarily a direct cause and effect as in more people are getting high and committing crimes after toking up.

It could be up as police have had to use more resources and spend more attention on those flagrantly violating the ordinances? The easy answer is don't enforce it, but you also have to remember that those ordinances are likely in place because enough of the business owners and residents don't want that kind of thing around them 24/7.

Gotta go, but I'd be interested in any thoughts out there.

So the DA admits that he isn't even sure if legalization is related, yet goes on to speculate anyway.

The increase in crime such as smoking in public is....non important.

I wonder what the increase in arrest/tickets were when the US ended prohibition on alcohol ok?

Then there's another factor: you stated the population numbers from 2013.

Could the increase in crime be because of an increase in population?

Using that criteria, was there an actual increase in crime, or did the ratio of crime per captain change? That's important.

Also, we've already gone over the way they go about judging accidents or even crime.

If I smoke a joint on Monday, and get into an accident Thursday, my toxicology report will show I have weed in my system.

Is that an marijuana related car accident? No, but the law will report it that way.

Another point: so if I smoke a cigarette, and 4 hours later I break into a car, does that mean that cigarette smokers are prone to crime, or is the drug being used as an excuse?

And then my last point, even though I could go on and on: at the end of the day, the DA sounds salty. The people have spoken. There's plenty of sources from all over, and right wing sites, showing the benefit of tax money going to schools and the public.

The schools asking for a tax increase is a fallacy.

Why? How many threads have we had right here on the board where some of you guys go "teachers are always asking for money" or "the schools are asking for funding even though they have enough" without weed being talked about whatsoever?

So is the school asking for funding a shot at he weed tax, or is it an excuse from the reality that public school districts ALWAYS ask for increased funding?

This seems like a last ditch effort to try and sway the vote of the 5 states with legalization on the ballot from anti-weed advocates. And the other states with medicinal weed on the ballot.

Honestly, people aren't buying it. Expect at least 3 more states to legalize, and another 2-3 for medical.

Jailing people just for possession and use is dumb. Time for full legalization.

Can't speek for Colorado but a buddy here had his four legal plants stolen from his yard just days before he was going to harvest. So I guess crime in Portland has gone up because of pot.

My brother is about as liberal as anyone I know. He's a democrat/lib through and through. He lives in Colorado. Littleton, to be exact.

He's a very intelligent person. Somewhat wealthy as well, as, at age 52 he was contemplating retirement. But, he decided to put in the extra 4 years of work in order to get full benefits.

He voted FOR pot legalization.

He's against it now. FWIW.

That's cool. I have friends in Colorado that voted for it, and still support it.

Everybody has their opinions.

I've talked to a few people that have visited Denver recently and they said the vagrant problem is out of control. There are bums everywhere. A friend said he was scared to walk a few blocks from his hotel and he lives in downtown Chicago.

I don't have any stats to back it up, but I'd bet a lot of people migrated there to live off petty crime and buy pot legally.

It wouldn't be a problem if Colorado wasn't one of the rare allowing it. I think 19 states have it on the ballot tomorrow.

Have lived in Colorado since 2001 and honestly I haven't seen any big differences since legalization. Fact is the only time it comes up is if someone is investing, but mostly from people outside of Colorado. Just not a big deal.

As someone who has worked in both law enforcement as well as corrections, I would look more at the meth/heroin epidemic in our state contributing to increased crime then weed.

Swish,

from what I was able to find from the Census, it looks like the population was 680,000+ in 2015. That's a pretty big jump in such a short time. But I also wasn't able to get any clarity on what constitutes "Denver" I saw references to Denver as a county but also a county.

What also wasn't mentioned in the original article is what the crime rates were prior to. But even without, they say over a thousand more car break ins and more than 900 additional car thefts, that's a massive jump no matter how many there were to begin with. I agree, the D.A. sounds salty. But if you were tasked with giving the citizens answers as to explain this huge increase in crime, you'd be salty too.

Even still, I don't think he or anyone is saying there is a direct link between, but there's too big an increase to just brush it off as a coincidence.

As for the school money, I took it as one of the proposed benefits is all the tax revenue. The gov't could tax the hell out of it and pay for all this stuff. Apparently in CO it was intended to go toward education and it's not enough? Either the area is experiencing phenomenal growth and the schools are expanding at a rapid pace, or (probably more likely) the money isn't actually being spent on education. There's obviously a lot more to that part of the story somewhere, but my interpretation of that part of the article is that they haven't benefited from the taxation part like they had hoped.

I did find it interesting the comment about people moving to Denver for work because they can pass drug tests. The People may have spoken, but it appears The Boss isn't on board jut yet?

Anyway, I'm not trying to conclude one way or another. This is just one of the few articles I've seen that has covered the results is all.

I can't help but wonder if crime rates have risen everywhere in the last few years so I don't know that Denver can blame pot and pot alone.

Through the end of September there were 30 homicides in the city of Dayton, Ohio. That's more than the year end totals for the previous four years! (I will assume the crime rate has risen as well, but I suppose it's possible people are just choosing to kill instead of steal.)

I would say the same about Portland and Oregon as a whole. Yes, you sometimes hear about the shops sometimes getting robbed but, I don't think it is anymore than a 711 or a bank. Portland's population has boomed but, that has nothing to do with marijuana legalization and more to do with some crap tv show that all the hip kids in the midwest want to live out or Californian's cashing in.

Our problem is the homeless issue and I would say many of the younger homeless street folk are here because there are a lot of drugs in general, heroin is strife as is meth we have a needle and pipe exchange, and the city is liberal and tolerant to people camping out on the streets. However, as the drug population swells and shantytown/tent encampments are now down entire street blocks or in the parks petty crime, abandoned needles etc. have also swelled. I see and hear people in this traditionally tolerant city becoming more and more less tolerant and worried that it has gotten out of hand. Thing is...our local politicians are a joke. I have lived here since 2007 and it has become increasingly obvious to me that this city and state could be run better by the keystone cops. The wild west mentality still exists in the rodeo shows called Portland City Hall and Salem State Office.

I thought weed was suppose to mellow you out?

From those crime stats and Swish's posts, that thinking may be completely wrong.

Atlanta has 120 gangs. It's not safe anywhere.

Was just there this weekend (3rd time since law passed).

All I can say is so much for smelling the clean air of the Rockies. I felt like I was at Greatful Dead concert all weekend most places I went. Opened the balcony window at the nice hotel to take in the morning air and had to close it from all the folks smoking weed on theirs.

The vagrant problem certainly looks bad there; much worse the C-Town's. With that said, my friend plays "Homeless or Hipster" as one looks and tries to guess. A different flock of birds there.

Once again another issue that probably doesn't effect anyone here. But the whining is deafening.

Trust me, 40, it does

Speaking of weed:

'Marijuana legalization: California, Nevada, Florida voters say yes but Arizona rejects'

http://www.fox5ny.com/news/216285833-story

People need to view this at face value.

Right now weed is that taboo thing that is no longer taboo in states that legalized.

Give it some years, and just like in the Netherlands, the number of people smoking weed will start dropping.

Thought I'd put this here.

Hmm... Just reread this entire thread.

The legalization has absolutely no impact on me. Except I have some very happy friends in Massachusetts.

Maybe someday if I'm terminally ill...

Maybe in conjunction with tequila, orange juice and Budweiser.

Yeah that sounds good.

And maybe somebody to join me and play cards for a while.

Good, maybe people will leave Colorado, it's getting too crowded here.

California this morning:

Especially after Clinton lost.

8
6
7
5
3
0
9

Jenny, Jenny, Who can I turn to?

If you're going to live off petty crime, why not buy pot illegally, since it will probably be cheaper?

I don't know about the crime situation, big picture, but I hope it gets legalized all over the place, because I want to smoke it, and not have to worry about getting tested (I assume if this country becomes more recreational-legal in more states, companies will stop testing for it)

Colorado prices for weed has dropped.

Supply and demand now. So it's actually the same price to buy it at a store as it is to buy if off the street.

Right now you can buy some high grade, quarter ounce of weed in Colorado for as cheap as $60.

For xomparison sakes, on the streets here in Cleveland, for some mid grade it's gonna run you at least 80.

I bought weed in the streets in Denver on vacation and the prices are around the same as it is trying to buy in the stores.

The only reason to even buy it off the street is maybe the dealer has a different strain that hasn't hit the stores just yet.

And for another comparison, in Amsterdam I was buying a quarter ounce of weed for 35.

When you legalize something, the prices always drop.

Since this is still a federal offense, did Trump ever say what he thought about the state's doing this on their own?

No clue. I dunno if he's ever mentioned it at all.

Aren't these also pretty much the same states that didn't vote for him and are currently rioting he must go even before he's done anything?

I seriously doubt it since there are HUGE issues with having employees at work that are high and possibly endangering work safety where they could face HUGE lawsuits. Just like companies will fire you for showing up to work drunk even though beer is legal.

The only thing it will do is make it even easier for companies to weed out who they should not hire because you can smell that disgusting scent a mile away.

While he has every right to do so, I don't think it will be vry high on his list since he likes his pot too ^^

The problem has never been trump.

The problem with this issue was always chris Christie and the position he was trying to get.

Hopefully that's no longer a concern.

We still have to dodge Rudy.

My Brother lives in Colorado and runs a small construction co. He says its horrible out there. Can't get anybody to work and when he does hire anyone they only come to work 2 or 3 days a week. He said the local weed shop parking is always full and weed is $405 dollars an ounce..People wandering the streets with spaced out looks in their eyes

Those spaced out people have a name.

Bronco fans

Bro was home awhile ago. We got together for a Browns party, The party was fun, the Browns, not so much.

This oughta work well ... sounds like a BRILLIANT IDEA especially near closing time ...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/11/...estaurants.html

Denver becomes first US city to allow pot in bars, restaurants
Published November 15, 2016 Associated Press

DENVER – Denver has approved a first-in-the-nation law allowing people to use marijuana at bars, restaurants and other public spaces such as art galleries or yoga studios.

The catch: Patrons could use pot as long as it isn't smoked and the locations would have to seek the approval of neighbors.

Denver voters approved Proposition 300 as eight other states legalized marijuana for medical or recreational purposes last week. The Denver vote was so close that it took an entire week for supporters to claim victory and opponents to concede.

"It's the sensible thing to do," said Emmett Reistroffer, a Denver marijuana consultant and campaign manager for the pot-in-bars measure. "This is about personal responsibility and respecting adults who want to have a place to enjoy cannabis."

The city measure takes effect immediately, but it has a lot of caveats.

First, interested bars and restaurants would have to show they have neighborhood support before getting a license to allow marijuana use. In addition, patrons would have to bring their own weed to comply with state law banning the sale of both pot and food or drink at a single location.

Patrons at participating bars could use pot inside as long as it isn't smoked. The law does provide for the possibility of outside smoking areas under restrictive circumstances.

Mason Tvert, a spokesman for the national Marijuana Policy Project and a Denver proponent of the consumption law, said the measure would reduce instances of tourists smoking pot on sidewalks and in parks because they have nowhere private to consume weed.

A Denver billboard promoting the measure featured a large arrow pointing to a sidewalk below, telling voters that without a provision for social pot use, folks will keep smoking pot in plain view.

"We are setting up a system that is still more restrictive than what we see with alcohol consumption," Tvert said.

Supporters of the measure had no guess on how many establishments would apply for the permits or how long it would take for them to demonstrate community acceptance and receive permits. So it could take many months before Denver sees any Amsterdam-style coffee shops.

The measure sunsets in 2020, unless city officials renew the licenses or voters make the pot-in-bars measure permanent.

Current Colorado law does not allow or ban public marijuana use. The result is a hodgepodge of local ordinances related to marijuana clubs.

Denver is the first city to allow use in bars and restaurants. The state Legislature is expected to consider a bill next year to clarify that communities can allow on-site pot consumption if they wish.

Alaska is the only state that allows on-site consumption at pot retailers. However, the state doesn't allow use in bars or restaurants, and it's still working on rules for how those pot shop "tasting rooms" would operate.

California's recreational marijuana measure approved last week specifically allows pot clubs, and legalization measures approved in Massachusetts, Maine and Nevada don't rule out on-site pot consumption on private property.

Opponents of the Denver measure predicted neighborhoods would resist bars, restaurants and other venues seeking pot licenses. They warned the measure won't properly protect the public from stoned patrons leaving a bar that allows smoking and drinking at the same time.

"How can these businesses possibly monitor patrons for marijuana intoxication?" opponent Rachel O'Bryan said in a statement Tuesday.

The measure would require any interested bar or restaurant to specially train staff in marijuana use and submit an operations plan to show how it would prevent marijuana use by underage patrons. Applicants must also specify strategies and procedures for identifying and responding to the potential over-intoxication of consumers.