DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Talk on TALENT

We have talent but not the elite talent. We've passed on so many early picks by trading down for more picks our talent level is just that, second tier. Sure we have Joe T. and a few up and comers. But nothing substantial across the board. We need elite talent that only early picks and trades can bring. Elite talent isn't coming here by FA anytime soon. We need two shut down CB's. Linebackers, Dlinemen, edge rushers. Another studly olinemen or two. Another top RB. Another top WR another this another that. Not to mention we don't have a franchise QB yet.

The FO needs to rely on the early draft picks by hitting on all of them without a miss and not trading any early picks down and getting second tier talent instead. BPA to set a foundation. You know? Something we should have doing all along.

Offense:

Joe Thomas is the only safe guy on the line. Bitonio is starting to have an injury history. So I dunno if anybody on the line not named Thomas can be considered relatable. The lack of talent is troubling as well. Our Line is on one day, off the next.

Barnidge is cool. Pryor and Coleman are definitely keepers. At this point I wouldn't mind seeing an upgrade for the RB position. But crow is definitely decent.

qb....lol

Defense:

Shelton, ogbah, kirksey, Haden, are keepers. That's talent we can rely on.

Nassib started strong until the injury. He been kinda a no show ever since.

I usually don't post as much before the old site was shutdown, but I really feel the need to here.

I do believe we have some exceptional talent from this years draft. I also believe that we have hit on or about the percentile that will boom/bust thus far. I also believe in the 2-3 year for a rookie to come into his own.

I do see that the FO is making strides to find young/viable talent and not just throwing money at someone hoping they stud/stick it out. There is no way this worked for us before and it will not now or the immediate future, ala. Collins.

What I also do see (conspiracy theory alert by me, here) is what EO was saying in another thread was that it appears that we are playing to get the #1 pick and elevate EVERY single draft pick based on having this high placement. If that is the case, then we are doing an OUTSTANDING job at it! I would not be surprised at all if San Fran wins one more game than you may see our first win of the season.

Just My Humble Rant.

QB: I don't see a starting qb on the roster. Maybe Kessler can be a back-up, but him not throwing the ball down the field is becoming a huge issue.

RB: I think we are okay. I like both guys well enough.

WR: Pryor is pretty good. Not sure about Coleman. He is fast and explosive, but doesn't have great hands and has battled injuries. The rookie WRs have been unimpressive.

TE: I like Barnidge. Tefler has some talent as a 2nd or 3rd guy. That's about it.

OL: I love Joe. I think Greco is a very good RG and should be kept. Pazstor might be better at G than T. Bitonio is good when he plays, but the injuries are a concern. Erving stinks. The rest are just guys. We need a C and RT. Too bad Mack and Scwartz aren't available.

Interior D-line: Shelton is playing well. The rest are just guys and it doesn't mater if they are here or not.

Edge guys: Ogbah isn't a star, but will contribute. Nassib should be a situational guy. Orchard is a big question mark.

LBers: Kirksey has played well this year. He is okay. Davis needs replaced.

CB: Joe is getting older, is overpaid, and gets hurt a lot. The rest are dime guys.

S: Worst part of the team. We don't have one guy who should be seeing the field other than Poyer and he is a dime guy.

No real impact players other than maybe Pryor. The depth sucks. Too many holes. This team is a long way away in the talent department. I am already seeing the coaching staff receive criticism for the lack of talent and that is a shame.

Offensively, I actually think we are only a few pieces away. The big piece of course is at QB. After that goes O-line. THe last thing is we just need someone to step up at the #3 WR spot.

Biggest Need(s): QB, C, RG, RT

Defensively, I think our front 7 is coming together (slowly).

-We need a hog at DE. Someone quick off the snap who has a nose for stopping the run. We have serviceable guys, but they aren't consistent.

-LB positions are pretty good I think. Kirksey has shown the most upside (still need to improve tackling). Collins is a pro bowler, and is very versatile at any LB position. Davis, he hasn't shown me that he is great, but he definitely puts forth effort and lays wood. Not sure if Ogbah is officially our other OLB or not, but he has grown these past few weeks. I could live with Kirksey, Collins, Davis, and Ogbah as our LB's.

-Secondary: Outside of Haden, who has regressed a little, we need help badddddddddd. Boddy-Calhoun shows flashes, but outside of him, omg. Need safety help too. Campbell was given a chance to take over, and hasn't. Poyer is hurt, and even when healthy wasn't great. Kindred looked good at the beginning of the season as he if very physical, but he can't cover for crap.

Biggest Need(s) (no particular order): CB, S, DE

Small caveat - If we pick first, you get Garrett, and put him at OLB. Either make the decision to move Collins inside, and let Kirksey/Davis split time, or put Ogbah at DE, and leave Collins outside.

mac, must you bash the FO on every post you make?

Sheesh man!

We have some talent, but no established players. Youth does not win in the NFL. I like many of the players on the team, and think that we have some guys who can form a good foundation. However, they need time, and we w=are going to be throwing a lot of younger players into the mix next year.

We need to keep our best players when (or before) they hit free agency. We also need to maintain our front office/coaching staffs. This constant change does us absolutely no good. It has been one of our biggest problems. We have had all of these different coaches, with different schemes, and it has been a cluster. Are we a power blocking team, or a zone blocking team? Are we a 4-3 defense, or a 3-4, or a combination, or not? Are we a WCO team, or a downfield passing attack? The answer, for us, has been "yes", the "no", then back again. It;s no wonder we have had such a hard time evaluating and keeping our own players. We never know what they are going to be playing, and we have changed everything every what .... 1.2 years or so under Haslam?

I do like the potential of some of our player. I like, in varying degrees, and yes, some more as role players, guys like Pryor, Coleman, Louis, Thomas, Bitonio, Greco, Duke, Crow, Shelton, Ogbah, Nassib, Collins, Kirksey, Schobert, Campbell and Kindred. (though both are proving to be in the box SS types) However, we also have a ton of young guys who are still trying ton figure our how to play in the NFL, and making mistakes ...... and trying to do so when their fellow rookies also trying to learn their ways, and making mistakes.

I do not think that we did our rookies on defense any favors by bringing in Horton as DC. He does not believe in bringing a defense along slowly, but throws everything at his defense. It seems that we have guys making mistakes on defense, and these mistakes are not corrected as they occur. I a absolutely not a Horton fan, and he has made me even less a fan as the year has played out. Next year we'll have more young players trying to find their ways in a very complex defense.

Offense:
QB-none
RB-B
OL-C
WR-D
TE-D

Defense:
DL:D-
NT-A
DE-F

Edge:D
REdge-C
LEdge-F

LBs:C
ILB-B+
OLB-D-

Secondary-D
Safety-F
CB-C+

When I think talent, I think true NFL talent that can really impact the game. Having said that, here's my list:

1) Terrelle Pryor
2) Jamie Collins
3) Joe Thomas

Joe Haden has talent, but he lost interest awhile ago.

Corey Coleman, potential is there, but a big unknown.

In my opinion, the cupboards have some crumbs lying around and we have a bunch of "guys" until and only if there is significant development in some of the rookies.

We could draft a player at any position with the first overall pick and I would be okay with it (if the player was good enough). We need a player at every position.

EO,
Are you kidding me with this?? We have a HUGE lack of talent. You can look at starters all day BUT what about whats behind them?? You have maybe 2 starters on offense that could start for other teams, after that, we are done! On defense, maybe 1 or 2 people. But again, after the starters, we have a bunch of babies!

My personal axe to grind is if we are building a team, look at Dallas. First, get a offensive line. Second, a decent QB. Then get your defensive line in order.

That Dallas O-line just man-handled Pitt. Seattle's O-line dominated against NE. The examples are all over the place but for some reason, GMs want to reinvent the wheel

I agree with you about the lines. Games are won and lost in the trenches!

I can't add anything than what has been posted above as far as talent is concerned.

Suffice to say that we need several years of good drafts and offseason acquisitions to become a playoff caliber team.

Just for clarification; Dallas has made huge investments in their OL. Seattle has not.

Seattle got their QB, built their defense, and put together an OL with 1 1st, 1 2nd, a couple 4th rounders band below, and 4 UDFA. They are not the best example for investing heavily in the OL.

Seattle is the worst example you could have mentioned. They built everything else before the offensive line.

You should eat a snickers

talent....i know we have some. i cant say that id take our starters over other teams starters.

every game i see someone blowin by haden. every game the other qb is having the best game of his career. every game the other teams running back is having a game of the year.

i think when we say talen we just mean they are kinda fast. or have the size. heck kessler has a great qb rating so...

our biggest flaw is our running game. we run 10 times a game with our crow. we are up in the first half of games and we still dont run the ball....bring back pat shurmer....i mean the bengals last year ran more and we dont....we dont have talent in coordinating.

im not a browns hater i just drank alot of redds mango

Greco is beyond average. Heck, he's almost as good as Steinbach was. Bitonio is an all pro and he's just starting. JT is JT. Nothing more needs to be said about the guy. He's in a class of his own - all time. Yeah, Cam is looking like a bust, but Drango is looking promising as a utility guy. I'm hoping for those two to make good sides in the offseason. Shon was thought of to have the athleticism to play
LT before he tore his ACL. So maybe that pans out. But the point is we have always and are currently building a top 5 offensive line.

QB....we are in good shape if you are looking at a back-up. Now we need a starter. I guess Kessler can still develop, but I would give that about a 30% chance.

OL....I think we have some talent on the line. One of the things hat hurt this year is injuries. We have run a lot of different combinations this season. It's clear to me that Cam stinks. He is just too weak and frankly seems to shy from contact. That guy has to go. Be is a very small sample, Reiter showed some promise at center. He at least seemed to maintain the point of attack rather than get blown up.

RB...I like our group. There are different skill sets to give us options. I am one of those who devalues the position a little bit. Most backs at this level are good if given running room. While our guys may not be able to make something out of nothing, give them a hole and they are going to gain good yardage.

WR,,,,Pryor and Coleman look to be at least good, if not real good. The others are just guys who can be found all over the league and waiver wires.

TE...Barnidhge is good, and DeValve looks pretty quick. I think we are in good enough shape at that position.

DL...other than Danny, the others are situational guys who might make a play here and there. Be it from this position or OLB we have to get a edge rusher. As much as QB, a edge rusher is a top priority. In this draft I don't see a QB who is better than Myles Garrett. He needs to be our pick.

LB...Collins can be very good. Now we just need to sign him. Ogbaugh shows some promise to be at least a good player. He may be good enough to sniff a pro-bowl or two in his career, but mostly he looks like he can be a solid member. The rest are just guys.

DB and safety....it pretty much needs a total rework. My comments on the individuals pretty much echo those already made.

Our punter and kicker look good enough.

To conclude, I think we need to get a couple of players in FA to plug and play, and other than possibly a QB, this needs to be a top heavy defensive draft, with a O-line prospect or two mixed in.

I'd be very happy if we went edge rusher and corner with the first two picks, then follow it up with a O-lineman and safety.....that is unless one of the QBs wows us

Remember Ytown,
They lost some O-line talent over these last 2 years. But apparently they know how to spot some talent because those guys are now starting to roll. You take out J.Thomas from our line( who I think SEA was looking at), and which one of those lines would you like to have, our O-line or SEA??

And again, you build from the lines( O and D line) outward.

Candy,
They lost O-line talent over these last 2 years. But they are getting better production from their iine than we are. But the over-all theme is the same, build that Oline, then dline, get a decent QB then skill positions.

Not to pile on the one guy, but Seattle's OL stinks. They are one of the worst OL's in the league.

Were very young ... 19 rooks as u pointed out ... Most NFL players make their biggest leap between year 1 and 2 ... see Shelton ...

We also may have the slowest D in the NFL ... I'm amazed at how slow we look ... I'll start with our speedless D that is either young or talent less .. in some cases BOTH ...

We need an entirely new secondary starting with the safeties ... Haden is overrated .. he's gotten old and slow at a very young age .. *L* ..

This group has issues and the lack of a pass rush exposes every one of their flaws .. the first thing I would do to improve their play is get a true pass rusher .. easier said then done .. there's alot of team in this league that need one of those ..

LBer - Collins is talented .. no doubt .. worry about his attitude .. i don't IGNORE red flags .. I also wonder how the experience has had here and will continue to have here over the next 6 games are going to affect his desire to stay here ... I guess the silver lining in being as bad as we are is that we can tag him to keep him here for another year cause we have no one else to tag .. not sure how well that will work out for us .. see attitude ...

Kirksey has speed and has a chance to be pretty good .. i actually enjoy watching him most of the time ... only player on our D that has made me say "who was that" after a play ..

The rest .. BYE BYE ...

DL - Shelton is way above average and if he plays like this for a few more years will be a stud and possibly one of the best ..

Ogbah - as of now not real impressed .. he will never be a big sack guy, he's simply not quick enough .. has some po against the run .. he's strong ... very interested to see what kind of a leap he takes ..

Nassib - his biggest asset is his length and batting balls down .. he seems like a tweener to me .. he's quick but not quick enough to be an edge rusher ... he has great technique and understand leverage and is explosive off the ball and uses that to his advantage and get a initial push .. but he doesn't seem strong enough to be a "bull rusher" ..

He reminds me of the kid that grew to quick and his coordination hasn't caught up to his body .. he looks "akward" to me ..

Just like with Ogbah .. very interested to see the leap he takes ..

The rest .. meh ... lets see what the kids can do in between years 1 and 2 ..

We need a pass rusher and SPEED on this D .. were very very slow ..

Not a fan of Horton's .. but he has LITERALLY NOTHING TO WORK WITH HERE ..

OL - we need a Center and RT based off this years play .. we may have the answers on the roster .. lets see what the rooks do between year 1 and 2 ...

QB - we need one ... it amazes me that 2 weeks ago Cody went from the guy that was not even close to the problem with this O to the guy that is holding us back ... makes no sense to me .. *shrugs* .. as usual .. the back up QB (this time the one on IR) is the most popular player on the team .. *L*

I said after the draft .. i liked the pick because i thought he could be a very good back up in this league .. i still think the same thing ..

If we use a top 20 pick on any of them this year .. BAD MOVE IMO .. many want a QB early just because we need one .. not a good reason to take a QB EVER .. its called BAD DRAFTING ...

RB's - were OK here .. very worried about Crow being just another "contract year player" .. he's been an underachieving POS since his freshman year in college .. then in his contract year he turns it on .. that usually doesn't work out well ..

WR's - hopefully Coleman can stay on the field so he can get reps .. he's as explosive as advertised .. he has a shot to be pretty good .. hopefully his hands don't hold him back ..

Pryor - hes a guy learning to play the position .. hes got physical skills u can't teach .. he also appears to be improving with the route running but still has a ways to go .. U can see it on the deep sideline throws .. he never leaves his QB room to the sideline to throw the ball .. on about 75% of his sideline goes he's pinned to the sideline ... he can't do that ..

No way he is worth the money for a franchise tag .. but in our situation .. it may be wise to do it .. he's a hard worker .. very hard worker that is competitive as hell .. see jump balls .. i picked him up in week 2 of fantasy for that reason alone .. he needs to learn to control his temper .. and i don't mean the penalty that hurt us in whatever game that was .. that was BS ..

Lewis - not a fan of WR's that can't catch .. he is a great athelete .. with bad hands .. not expecting much from him for that reason alone ..

Other rook WR's - will need at least another year to evaluate them .. WR's sometimes take 3 years .. right now we have NOTHING to go on ... i wish we could transplant Higgins hands onto Lewis's arms .. *L* ..

TE's - Barnidge is OK .. no clue on the rooks ...

Were 0 - 10 .. like bonefish said ... there's a reason for that ... lets see how the kids pan out in year two .. hopefully some of them take a leap ...

Needs in order of importance ..

- QB - this may have to wait a year .. don't want to reach just of for the sake of taking one ..

- PASS RUSHER .... we desperately need one .. that would help everyone around them on the line be better and it would help mask some of the deficiencies in the secondary ..

- LBers that play the game FAST ...

- 4 new starters in the secondary .... with some SPEED!!!

- C/RT - only reason this isn't higher on the list is because i'd like to see what the unknown kids can do .. including dude that played 3/4's of a game ..

offense we are with in 10 points of baltimores offense enough said.
defense get edge rushers plus draft 4 dbs problems solved.

Guys I think can be NFL quality:

Joe Thomas
Joel Bitonio
Terrelle Pryor
Corey Coleman
Gary Barnidge
Isaiah Crowell
Duke Johnson
Cody Kessler (as a backup only)

Danny Shelton
Jamie Collins
Christian Kirksey
Joe Haden

For me, the jury is still out on Ogbah and Nassib

EO,
First, put your big boy pants on!!.. Now once you have done that, look at the questions I posed in my original post. Again, its one thing to look at the starters, but another to look at what is behind them. And as I said, there is not much!

Our starting talent is very limited. I'm not talking pro-bowl, but could they start on other teams in the division. JT and Pryor = yes. Bitiono(sp) probably. ON defense, NT and Haden = yes. Our LBs, other than that last pick up = No. Then the secondary is another mess.

But once we signed on to this young team approach/build by the draft, we signed up a few tough seasons. Kinda like when you get your kitchen redone, it goes down the to the studs and you are not eating in the kitchen for awhile!!!

Two-dimensional objects have more depth than this roster.

Basically, it's as simple as this: On a roster this slim in talent, if the person isn't flashing something regularly, they're not good enough to stick around, much less build around.

I'd say that most of the rookies WR's fall into this and nearly every defensive rookie. I put Irving in there, too, along with Drango and whatever the heck it is we've been putting out there at RT.

Anything/everything in the secondary can be scrapped - even Joe. I like Joe, and I love who he used to be as a player for us -- he is not that player any longer and has not been since he got paid.

Basically, like others have said already --- out of 53, we might have 8 or 9 guys worth keeping. That's not 8 or 9 All-Pro's... that's 8 or 9 that deserve to call themselves professionals and collect a pay check.

Eo....I agree with DinDC....I didn't read his comments as a insult.


JMO

the jury is still out: would like to add Jamar Taylor to that list. some good plays some bad ones.

Other I would like to see more of: Des Bryant, Center Reiter, Orchad.

From the pratice squad I would to like to see TE Connor Hamlett get some time at 6'7 heck of a catch radius. maybe RB T Watson at 6'1 and 240 lbs he could be good for short yardage situations.

I don't think there is any question we stick to the guns. We may make a tweek in the coaching staff, or the type of defensive front we play, but the plan is in place. In the very beginning Jimmy said this wasn't going to be a quick fix.

Now, that said, I do think the pressure of a very bad season will make us budge a bit and we sign and plug in a free agent or two.

I'd like to see us start making some progress and start signing some of the free agents currently on the team.....Pryor and Collins would be a good place to start.

This isn't the first time I have seen that opinion. Can you guys provide some evidence to support that claim? From what I've seen, Kindred and Campbell should be asked to cover way more than they actually are and I believe that they aren't being used enough in coverage because they absolutely stink at it.

j/c

Let's keep in mind its a whole lot of young guys right now that are developing. Let's not get into the "scrap everyone" mode and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Yes, we're light on proven talent right now but that's what this season was. Total reset.

We get a new influx of talent this offseason and upgrade positions. Like most folks on here, I hope we invest in our secondary. Our safety position is atrocious and our corner situation is bad at best.

Biggest question is obviously whether or not the FO sees a QB that is worth first overall pick. I gotta hunch they don't and instead we'll see a QB with the second first rounder or the top of the second round.

agree canada .. i'd prefer to draft Garrett/Peppers/ etc instead of force feeding a QB at 1

On a sidenote, I'm a little torn on Garrett. I don;t watch a ton of college ball so I'm relatively uneducated but in watching game film on him, he seems almost solely reliant on a fast first step. I'm a tad wary of passrushers that rely solely on speed as tackles are better at dealing with it in the pros. Granted, its a SICK first step...but I'd feel alot better about him if I saw more technical skills in there as well.

Can someone enlighten me on what I might be missing?