DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Harvard Boys, Hue, and QBs

I have a couple of things I want to discuss here.

1. Look at the three top QBs on our roster going into the season. RGIII, McCown, and Kessler. Other than holding the ball too long, what the heck do they have in common?

RGIII can throw the deep ball and is fast. He is also frail, has had leadership issues, and has struggled to read defenses and coverages.

McCown is a pretty big guy w/a reckless nature and terrible footwork and pocket presence. He's gutty and tough, but his mechanics and decision making are lacking.

Kessler is short, soft, and has a weak arm. He is smart and hard-working. He is not a guy to go out and make plays that win you games. He is a game manager.

It seems strange that we picked these three guys. You certainly aren't going to transition seamlessly when you switch from one to another. All three guys are vastly different QBs. This combination of QBs baffles me.


2. The Harvard boys, Hue, and Pep all liked Goff more than Wentz. Depo said that they didn't view Wentz as a top 20 qb. They liked Cody over guys like Prescott, Jones, and Cook. Sashi came out and said RGIII was not a stop-gap, short-term qb, but instead a guy they would develop over time.

3. Given the above two points, what is your confidence level that The Harvard Boys and Hue will get the right qb in here as they move forward?

Vers,

Do I think they get it right moving forward...I would to think yes they will but not 2017...QB's just are not looking that hot to me right now...not sure lots of people are gushing over D. Watson...I don't see it. kid makes the same misreads our QB's are already doing that.

going forward in 2017...baring the draft and FA I would roll with RGIII, Hogan, Kessler. fill this roster with more talent and go for broke in the 2018 QB class?

yet to be determined whether Goff is better or worse than Wentz.

one thing is for sure. our QB of the future has yet to arrive.

my 1/2 cents worth

1. What do they all have in common? They all came cheap.

2. I'm no longer sold that the people making personnel decisions include talent and ability to play the game in their decision making process.

3. Zero.

About the same as it was when we had QB gurus on staff like the Walrus and whoever else we've had in here over the years. Each of which came with their own set of credentials, each of which has failed.

My bigger fear at the moment is that we will get it right and our QB of the future will be killed by week 7 of next year because he's been hit 8,326 times.

and half of those times, just like this year, is the QB's fault.

To vers, your question:

for the first few games, even with the QB injuries, the offense was able to move the ball.

because of that, many fans - which includes myself - focused on other issues of the team.

mainly, defensively. I want to remind the board that Hue and Pep were able to keep the offense moving by having Cody do what he's comfortable with.

the inevitable problem that we have to finally understand is that defenses adjust.

i agree with your assessment of the QB's on our roster.

and the reality is that Cody was the third stringer for a reason. he's the worst of the 3. that can't even be debated at this point.

McCown is in the middle.

And RG3 is the best, has been the best QB on this team. but he can't stay healthy. the only hope i give RG3 is the fact that the injury in week 1 was his own damn fault. so maybe there's still a chance he can be something.

but Hue's actions has said all we needed to know about our QB's moving forward: they aren't any good.

i mean Cody is hesitating to throw the ball....anywhere. long throws, short throws, intermediate throws. he has zero confidence in himself.

it's my hope...my HOPE, that the FO learned their lesson.

so what i HOPE is that we get rid of McCown this off season, draft a QB round 1, and let RG3 take over until he's injured (again), or just playing bad. and if he's good then the rookie sits.

So the FO should be looking into next season with:

RG3
<insert first round QB>
Kessler

but am i confident the FO will get any of it right? not really. i just have a bad feeling the FO is gonna continue to be cheap asses, play the draft pick game again, and then Hue will get canned for not being able to win with a crap roster.

Has Mac hacked your account? You may want to check...

Good topic/discussion.

Points 1 and 2 presume agreement with the entirety of your [censored] draft process is unpredictable. Even the best teams hit ~55% rate. IT. IS. A. CRAP. SHOOT.

I like this current draft class. I understand the moves they made at QB this year. And I think Hue can develop QBs.

Therefore; I have more confidence that this FO has better chance of getting the QB position right then your average FO.

Good topic/discussion.

Points 1 and 2 presume agreement with the entirety of your assessment. I do not. Some areas yes, but wholesale? No.

Acquiring Griffin and retaining McCown all made sense to me given the situation of the franchise.

Griffin is as talented as any QB they could have drafted last year and comes to the table with high level production. McCown is a veteran that is a valuable team leader and can aid in the development of young QBs.
Look at Cody. Even with Cody's recent struggles I think Hue got more out of Cody then I anticipated. I recently read an article comparing Cody and Wentz. It may come as a surprise to some but Cody matches up very favorable against Wentz production despite the huge disparity in talent between the Browns and Eagles.

I think this FO has about as much chance to get it right as anyone else in the league. Perhaps a little more due to Hue's ability to coach the position.

I believe QB development is equal parts nature and nurture. Bill Walsh said ~that very few know how to identify a QB and fewer still know how to develop a QB.
I believe that Hue is one of those coaches that knows how to develop a QB.

Also, I think the physical difference between a 1st round QB and a UDFA isn't nearly as vast as the perception that accompanies the distance in their draft positions.

Take Cody for example. Even with Cody's recent struggles I think Hue got more out of Cody then I anticipated. I recently read and article comparing Cody and Wentz and even given the huge disparity in talent between the Browns and Eagles Cody matches up very favorable against Wentz production.

Also there is vast amount information that we simple cannot know about the decision making process of the front office. We don't know which QBs they liked and where they thought they could draft them. Maybe Dak was completely off their draft board because of his ill timed DUI? We simply cannot know.

Also, the QB position is unpredictable just like the whole draft process is unpredictable. Even the best teams hit ~55% rate. IT. IS. A. CRAP. SHOOT.

I like this current draft class. I understand the moves they made at QB this year. And I think Hue can develop QBs.

Therefore; I have more confidence that this FO has better chance of getting the QB position right then your average FO.

I was thinking about how different all 3 QBs were before the season started. The combination baffles me also. I was super shocked they kept McCown. Again, they are just saving $$$.

3. 0.001% that's if they even bring another QB in at all. The only guarantees with this team is losing games.

Great addition to the thread.

I know I might get ran out of this forum for these comments, especially since I don't have the cold hard numbers due to the NFL geek's pay wall. But Carson Wentz's yards per attempt is abysmal. I've seen people on twitter saying it's between 3 and 4 yards. That is not a good sign.

Okay. But, what is your point in regards to the thread?

Are you saying the Browns were right that Goff was the better prospect?

nobody should be able to truly answer that just yet.

especially since Goff's first start yesterday was....underwhelming, to be polite.

No, more like, let's hold off on giving Wentz a quick assessment. Same could be said about Goff who does have Jeff Fisher as a coach.

And, all i know is this:

please, i don't want to hear crap from the FO about trying to get jay culter.

he's trash, and he's injury prone.

btw I think the QBs leave a lot to be desired for, but I like the roster. It's not like they should carry more than 3, so having a possible home run hit, a ballsy game manager, and a dedicated rookie to the mix is probably the best possible archetype alignments.

BTW found the stats. Thank God, because my first post was wrong.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/yardsPerPassAttempt

Carson Wentz has 6.57 y/a while Kessler has 7.13 y/a. Not bad for a shell shock victim. I just hope Kessler can take some plays out of McCown's playbook and stand his own out there a bit more and try to make a play. Preferably with his arm, unlike McCown who loves his feet.

I completely disagree w/the "mix."

You have a qb in RGIII, who you say is a long-term guy and then you draft Kessler.

No problem w/drafting another qb, but man, those guys are so different. RGIII is not one to check down and dink and dunk. He is a legit deep ball passer and a runner. Cody is the opposite.

The "mix" makes no sense to me.

Tony Romo should be looking for a new home next year lol

I also want to say that using Wentz's and Kessler's YPA attempt at this point in time as something conclusive is very dangerous.

Anyone---who is not completely biased------can see that one guy can make all the throws and another guy either can't or won't.

I don't care if we sign Vinny Testaverde tomorrow. The HC should always say he is thinking about the long term plans of his team and his players. I don't care if it's true or not. But the leader must have his players interests in his words at all time. I also think if you look at our mix and Hue, then it makes sense.

Hue's hail mary was RG3. RG3 could have hopefully recreated himself under Hue who salivates when he thinks about a pass play. Kessler and McCown on the other hand are the play it safe guys. The guys like Dalton. The guys he thinks he can get to recreate what he did in Cinci.

I think that they saw a team in need of a complete top to bottom overhaul, and planned to add as many players in the upper part of the draft as possible. I am not going to debate whether that was the right or wrong decision, just that it was their decision.

I also think that they saw no QB at the top of the draft who they thought was a franchise level player. Because of this they decided to try and build an offense around a minimized QB spot. They expected to be able to runt he ball, and they added WR talent in hopes of being abole to win on that end of the passing game.

There were 2 QB at the top of most draft boards, Goff and Wentz. Thus far Goff has done nothing. Wentz could have been ours, if we had wanted him. He has been up and down in Philly. He started out the year with 7 TD and 1 INT in his 1st 4 games, (against us, Chicago, Pitt, and Detroit) and then has had 4 TD and 6 INT since.

His team has the 8th best rushing attack, and has the 11th most rushing TDs. The Eagles are also 4th in scoring defense. If you can run the ball and play defense, you stand a good chance of supporting a rookie QB. We do none of these things. He has won 5 games with a top 10 rush attack and a top 5 scoring defense. How many would he have won in Cleveland, without these things, and also without Corey Coleman? (who has not yet managed to consistently contribute) I have to think that he would not have managed to do much here. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see any QB being able to win many games here.

That's how I see it, anyway.

So, you are saying that you think these guys are good at evaluating quarterbacks?

I have another question for you? Have you watched much of Philly this year? Are you really saying they have a lot of offensive support around Wentz? Do you guys watch the games?

Wentz is averaging 3.58 Air Yards per attempt. Alex Smith, who is captain checkdown, is averaging 3.61 Air Yards per attempt.

The only starter that throws downfield less than Wentz is Brock Osweiler (3.49).

This is not to say that Wentz is bad or will be bad. He just doesn't throw downfield for whatever reason.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/quarterback-air-yards/2016/

It's impossible to keep a thread on track around here.

From a free agency stand point, I think we did well grabbing RG3. Think it was wise to hold on to McCown.

Think we can all agree that the Kessler draft pick was out of no where... That for sure would be the only thing I'd change. I still like the trading down of picks in the first, but would have liked to grab someone different.. who.. idk.

I have no idea how they are at evaluating QBs. I d not think that any rookie QB would have success on this team, as it is right now, with inexperience almost everywhere and a porous defense.

I have watched some Philly games, and have not watched others. Philly has a far superior rushing attack. Do you dispute that? Wentz does what you complain about Kessler doing, and throws a lot of short passes.

Wentz has played all 10 of the Eagles games. I am going to use some stats here, but only to reinforce what I have seen.

Wentz has completed 63.2% of his 356 attempts and has thrown for 2339 yards. He averages 6.57 yards/attempt, and has thrown 11 TD and 7 INT. He has 29 pass plays of 20+ yards and 4 of 40+.

Kessler has played in 5 whole games and 3 partial games, and has thrown 192 passes completing 65.6% for 1369 yards, with an average yards/pass of 7.13 yards/pass. He has 17 pass plays of 20+ yards and 4 of 40+ yards, and has thrown 6 TD and 2 INT.

The 2 QBs actually look a great deal alike in a lot of ways. Kessler has really tailed off in the past couple of games, and I think that he has been negatively affected by Hue calling him out. Yes a QB has to take some shots down the field, but Kessler often seems unwilling to now take the safe, shorter throws when they are the right play to take.

Going back to the similarities .... one of these QBs has completed 9 of 30 passes that have traveled 21+ yards in the air, and the other has completed 4 of 15.

From 11-20 yards in the air, one has completed 57% of his passes, and the other has completed 62%. One guy completes 80.8% of his passes behind the LOS and 67.6% from 1-10 yards. The other completes 71.4% behind the LOS and 73.9% from 1-10 yards.

The 2 players have very similar results, and Wentz does have a much better rush attack, and is backed by a far superior defense. That's not even disputable. Each has challenges as far as the talent around them. However, I am not so sure that people would not be talking about what a disappointment, or even bust Wentz is, if we had drafted him.

tricky isn't it?

This thread is NOT just about Wentz. Please re-read the OP. Thank you.

I really want to comment on your stats and eye test abilities, but I don't want to derail the thread any further than some of you already have.

I'm with U on this one Vers ...

I said after the draft Hue/Harvard boys must be high on Watson ... based it off of the fact that RG3 and Watson have very similiar skill sets and McCown/Cody aren't even remotely close ...

I figured Cody was the long term solution as a back up ... its also why i thought we'd trade Josh for sure .... Cody can at least move some ... Josh is a statue ...

Why would u in your first year implement an offense that wasn't going to be around in a year ... so i figured they loved Watson ...

Appearantly I was WRONG AGAIN ... the question/issue U brought up here was the first thing that got me starting to question Hue ... Why would u have 3 very different QB's on your roster ... you could not create a system that any two of them would be even a decent fit to run ...

I dunno ... i have very little faith in this FO on many levels ... actually thats a lie .. i have ZERO FAITH in this FO on many levels .. *L* ..

Don't mean to get the thread off topic .. but for the life of me I can't figure out why Hue is considered a QB "guru" ... his history does shows thats complete and utter BS ...

Except for the last paragraph.........thanks for staying on topic. Man, these guys are killing me. It's like I titled the thread. Wentz Has Great Stats!

And I am NOT asking people to agree w/my take. They can say that they do think the FO and Hue are good at evaluating qbs. Just give me some reasons why.

But please, let's stay on topic.

Thanks bro for addressing the topic.

I think some of us just posted the stats to show that Wentz isn't the sure fire HoF QB some are making him out to be. Also that only one draft class has passed since the FO started. Quite frankly we'll really see what they can do with next year's QB class. That one is looking like it can be quite talented.

If Cutler is the starting QB next year, I'm done!

what about Romo? lol he should be looking for a new home next year.

romo wants to go to denver

1. McCown was on the roster but, I am glad they did keep him. Saying that, he hasn't been good since he has returned. Granted, he is rusty and our line is a sieve but, 2nd half of Baltimore and when he entered yesterday against Pitt he looked shaky. Missed passes, throwing hard, holding the ball too long and, yet another fumble. But, I agree with your initial assessment. I do think he was kept as a viable option #2 QB in case RG3 was injured (nobody expected that would happen in game 1 tho) and to work with Cody.

I think on a winning team Cody's numbers would look decent. But, on an 0-11 team they are overlooked. But, his negatives are legit worries. He seems to have regressed and when he does chuck it down the field it has been underthrown or is a dangerous floater ripe for the picking. Can a coach improve arm strength?


2. I think RG3 came in and said and did all the right things. I was hopeful but also worried about his injury history. The O-line problems have plagued us ALL season. With exception to Hogan, all of our QBs have been completely destroyed. Losing Mack and Schwartz was a HUGE loss (as was Gip). When they both left (nothing we could do about Mack) we all knew it wasn't good but, I don't think any of us realized just how battered our QBs would be. Some of it their (QBs) fault but, other times the line completely breaks down far too quick and easy. Yesterday was a joke.

I think we can all agree that Prescott (and Elliott) is benefitting from a fantastic line and a lot of pressure is also off Prescott as Elliott is doing so well. We have neither. Crow started well but, the run game has since fizzled and isn't taking pressure off our QBs.

3. Confidence is difficult to say as they have only had one draft. I do have faith though. Mainly because I believe Hue is the best hire we have made since our return. Until proven otherwise I have to hold on to something to get me motivated and hopeful. I do think we need to immediately address our defense with #1 pick. If they have the guy in sight for our Philly pick (it may end up in mid teens) and they believe he could be "the guy" then they need to get him even if it means packaging something to move up.

oh didn't know that.

Who said Wentz was a sure-fire HOFer? And what makes you think that the premise of this thread was just about Wentz?

Sorry man, sounds like deflection to me.

1. I tend to think they figured RGIII would be the guy from day-1 (experienced and has background to help take the team to the plays offs), Josh would be the backup and spell as needed, and Cody would be a future - maybe backup, but not playing this year? If I take your reads on them - the best positives - (RGIII - deep ball and fast, McCown - gutty and tough, Cody - smart and hardworking), then you have a top QB...seems like they took a chance and came up worse-case and not having the RGIII from 2012 & 2013 they wanted. IF RGIII had played all season so far, I wonder what our record would be? Maybe 3-4 wins? IMO, they were probably hoping to get 2 good years from RGIII, develop Cody, and then maybe pick up another veteran to replace Josh after this year...This would work better, IMO, if we were committed to the run and built the team to run.

2. This one is tough as seems like QB is the toughest to chose and every year and there are always hits and misses. Cody's stick seemed to be accuracy and if he would throw them maybe they could make it work.

3. The right QB? What makes it tough is that the 'right' QB may not be in the next draft, it becomes more of the "who is closest to the right QB"? If we can't keep 1 QB healthy through 1/2 a season...ugh...Do I trust them with a QB...right now, not really. My fear is they will knee-jerk into something and deviate from their plan...

If where we are is so out of the plan, that means a new plan next year and the possibility for the same type of season...so stick with the plan!

We don't agree w/everything, but thanks for making a post that is on topic and contains a ton of logic!

The QB thing:

I don't think they expected Kessler to start by week 3, I also think that while their styles are not similar, they both have "strong" arms - meaning RG3 and McCown, and both would be learning the same scheme-playbook and not many plays would be pulled or added from our 'arsenal' - whomever had to play.

The other question: I'll only say I hope the FO knows where they're going, and I don't wanna see Haslam make any major changes.

Also it's much too early to assess our rookies, other than CK. He'll be a solid backup I believe. Not enough arm. Very simple.