DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Harvard Boys, Hue, and QBs

Some good points.

I agree that they are very different QB's, and I understand what you're saying.. I'm not sure that's so unusual tho. For instance since Romo is being mentioned, why bring in Prescott? He's about as different from Romo as it gets.

I'm not sure how an FO gets so lucky as to have all 3 of their QB's with the same skill set and football smarts.. they are all different people... then we get into the discussion about whether to build a system tailored to skill sets or skill sets tailored to a system. Course.. it's kinda difficult to gauge any of our QB's skills since they are being killed and rotated in and out of the hospital on a daily basis.




These things have all been said.. but who really knows? I'm not sure I believe anything Sashi or Depo says. I wasn't in the war room. Just IMO.. but I do think they thought RGIII would be there for the year and not out of the game right away.



Those morons? Yea right. They can't even get the Oline right.

I had a nice long post but my wifi connection on my phone is acting up and I lost it.

Long story short:

1. Common thread between RG3 and Kessler was supposed to be accuracy. Hasn't translated the best from shorts to the real games.

2. Kessler was supposed to sit this season and RG3 was supposed to run the show. He got the bulk of the reps. Unfortunately, injuries threw wrenches in the plan. They are hard to account for. Would have liked to see more progress.

3. Confidence has definitely been shaken, but we knew it was a longterm rebuild. There better be a big jump in year 2. I don't think I add a QB this off season, due to both the lack of a clear franchise guy in the Draft class and we need someone with a handle on the offense. Everyone trying to learn everything from scratch with a ton of young guys has been a mess. Hopefully we can come up with some base to build on for next year. Knowing the "language" and expectations should help...I think.

I do and they have a whole heck of a lot more than we do.

An offensive line, a running game and a defense.

Just because you don't want to hear it, doesn't mean it isn't relevant. If you are claiming that we blew it at QB then you have to evaluate the guy that everyone is saying that we missed out on.

Good post and thanks for staying on topic.

My only point of contention is that Romo and Dak aren't dramatically different. Both guys have strong arms. Both can buy time in the pocket. Both keep their eyes downfield while scrambling rather than just taking off.

Why do they have a running game? Is Matthews better than Crowell? Is Sproles that much better than Duke? How did the rushing stats for both teams play out in game one of the season when the Browns didn't have Cody at QB?

Who are the WRs for Philly? Matthews is a good possession WR, but who is their deep threat? Who can exploit tight coverage and burn you deep? Who is better than Pryor and Coleman? Is Ertz better than Baridge?

Their OL is good? Really? Do you have the rankings from PFF to prove that?

Before the season, many were saying that Philly was going to be worse than the Browns and that we might have the top two picks in the draft.

Wonder what changed in Philly to get them to .500 and the Browns to remain winless?

Look, if you went around the league.........I don't think anyone [other than some Brown's apologists and excuse makers] would take Cody over Wentz. They wouldn't take Goff over Wentz. They wouldn't take Cody over Prescott. They did not take RGIII and only one other team showed interest in him.

But yeah..........it's crazy to wonder if the Harvard Boys and Hue are good at evaluating quarterbacks. "Trust me on this."

You raise some obvious questions. I wish I had all the answers.

I don't think we have a starting QB in the bunch. All for the very reasons you brought up. They all have holes in their game.

I did have hope that under Hue Jackson, RGIII would develop and I suppose it could still happen but he so fragile, what's the value long term. Don't really think there is any.

Reading QB's seems to be something that is missing. With Pep and Hue on board, I'd have thought that wouldn't have been a problem but thus far it is.

My Confidence Level: Low

It's fixable but I fear not with this bunch. I'd keep Kessler because of the very reasons you pointed out. Smart, hardworking and a game manager. Perhaps what you need in an emergency.

But we need a stud. Romo might be available but that might be more of RGIII and McCown. Rivers? The Draft.

I'm not confident at all at this point.

Depo, Berry and Brown are smart guys. I don't think anyone is questioning the intellect there. But do they have the skills needed to find the right guy at QB. Recent history says that it's sketchy at best.

Is there a diamond in the Draft?

They have a running game because they have an outstanding o-line.
(LT Jason Peters, LG Allen Barbre, C Jason Kelce, RG Brandon Brooks, RT Lane Johnson)

When I look at o-line rankings, I prefer Football Outsiders because they better grade the unit as a whole.

Football Outsiders have them ranked as the 6th overall o-line in run blocking vs 27th overall for the Browns.

But you requested a very specific website though for your rankings. You'll load that question any way that you can, right?

Pro Football Focus has Philly ranked as #2 overall just behind the #1 Dallas Cowboys. I am not sure how much weight I would put into them though because the Browns o-line is still ranked as 7th overall but you knew that when you specifically asked for the PFF link. If you do think our line is that good, I shouldn't hear you calling for any new Centers or RT's next draft, right?

Ryan Mathews/Crowell and Sproles/Duke is probably a wash. The Philly guys probably have slightly more talent, but our guys are younger and will get better.

We have the edge at WR, but since we don't have a healthy QB it is pretty much a moot point.

Pryor is better than Matthews at this point, but Matthews is still young and can improve. I think Coleman is much better than we have seen so far but since he is a deep threat and Kessler can't throw deep, he has under-performed. Philly is just finding out they they have a deep threat and it isn't Agholor, it's Bryce Treggs. SF cut him in preseason because he injured his knee and they were going to try to stash him on the practice squad. Philly swooped in and he is starting to get playing time now.

You skipped asking about the defense, but that is where the difference is huge. Philly is ranked 8th in total defense vs 31st for the Browns. Teams cannot pin their ears back and rush the passer when your QB is playing with a lead.

In my opinion nothing has really changed and Philly is not close to a playoff team primarily because of QB play, but that is expected out of a rookie. They do have a much better roster than Cleveland does though.

I don't think anyone would take Cody over Wentz either, but we didn't. Last I saw Wentz was drafted well before Cody was.

They would take Goff over Wentz because they did do just that. Goff went #1 and Wentz went #2 and the jury is still out on who is better.

I wouldn't have took Cody over Prescott and was hyping Prescott all preseason and didn't like the Cody pick when we made it, but Hue said "Trust me on this", so I am.

So unless you are actually throwing Hue under the bus, like you claim people that are criticizing the offense are doing, you might want to give him some time.

It's not crazy at all to wonder how good these guys are at judging QB's. I am and have been since before the season started. What I am not doing, is making up my mind in the middle of their first season because I wasn't expecting lightning and the guy everyone is knocking wasn't supposed to take a snap this season for good reason, but that's just me.

I was also brought up with enough class not to call grown men boys, but that is just me too.

I also don't have an agenda to get someone fired.

You may proceed with your mud slinging now.

Your first piece of BS is in your 1st line ....

Johnson is no longer there RT ... hasn't been for awhile now ...

Thought u been watching there games? ... hmmmmm ...

Barbre played last week but missed a month or more prior to that ...

And now there back up RT is out so they get to move Babre to RT ... in FULL DISCLOSURE they just lost there RT last week during the game ...

Tregs? ... that just agenda driven BS .... thats, well lets just say calling it lame is being very nice ....

U must have only been there for certain parts of the "class" portion of your upbringing ...

U told Vers and mac to go back to their mudslinging ... guess u can go back to your half truths and BS ...

Have a nice turkey day ...

*LOL* .... Duke couldn't carry Sproles jock ...

Forgot about that one ... a wash ... *LOL* ...

PS. Sproles has missed the last few games and Smallwood and Barner(sumptin like that) were cutting into Matthews PT and last week Matthews got hurt also ...

Not sure witch game(s) of Phili's u been watching .. but u seem to not know much about them ... do u pay attention when there on?

I can't beleive were looking at 0-16....this is simply unacceptable...This would be the one time the Browns would be right to clean house even after just a year....

I'd be OK with keeping Jackson and just getting him a new Front Office, Moneyball has to go...this is deplorable...Jackson doesn't have a chance in hades winning here with these guys in charge....what an absolute joke...

He couldn't stop it from getting to the QB, either.

This may be the worst Browns team in history...this tema may be worse then the Robiski interim coach team....this team is proibably worse then the damn Chris Palmer Expansion team...even he got 2 wins for petes sake!

*LOL* ... not sure what that means ... but it made me *L* ..

Didn't sleep well ... really tired right now ..

hmmm being suspended means that he's suddenly not on the team anymore? hmmm...



again Barbre is fine and still on the roster. They still don't have a draft need here. hmmmm....



http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/videos...5a-9716d6477e39



It seems my turkey day is starting earlier than everyone else's.

I am seeing turkeys everywhere lately.

hmmmmmm.

Silly me .. I thought the players actually had to be playing ... What was i thinking ... *L* ...

Your to smart for me ... ...

You can join the list with mac and DaManIsHot as folks I hardly ever read and no longer reply to ...

WOW ... I seriously can't believe I just read that ....

That beyond ... well ,.. guess i better not go there ..

1 + 1 = 7,459 ...

Class?

I think some people are forgetting/ignoring certain things about Wentz/Cody.

Wentz has proven he can check out of bad plays at the LOS. Teams also respect his throwing ability. That does indeed help the running game, no matter how much some people want to spin it.

...This made the decision to pass on Wentz look really bad, but if you consider that NFL defensive coordinators typically need four games of film on a quarterback to learn his weaknesses, Wentz was ripe for regression, and regress he did. In his last five games, the Philadelphia QB has graded as the sixth-worst QB in the league, with a four-to-six TD-to-INT ratio, and a passer rating worse than that of Brock Osweiler and Ryan Fitzpatrick. At this point, we don’t know if Wentz will be a top-tier QB in the NFL, but to immediately write off the Cleveland front office based on a quarter of a season’s work from a player they passed on is short-sighted.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-how-the-cleveland-browns-can-compete-in-2017/

interesting read full article ^^^

I know, I know I only picked one paragraph out of the deal but seemed to hammer home the point. that it is too early to really tell who will become what in this league...imo only

While I certainly agree, it is their first year running the show. They inherited McCown so while he doesn't really fit with RG3, I believe they needed an anchor with experience since I perceived the goal was to allow Kessler to sit out the season.

Kessler on the other hand, in no way fits with RG3, so this is a true head scratcher. It would seem obvious to me that if your true intent was looking at RG3 as a long term solution, you would draft a similar style QB in the draft. That did not happen.




This definitely has to make any objective fan question their decision making. I've heard people say that "everyone passed on these QB's several times". That's not quite true. Many teams have their QB's and many teams are still trying to decide if they have their QB. So a lot of teams weren't even looking to draft a QB.



My confidence level is very low. While people may cite some actual football experience in the FO, on the whole we are severely lacking there. When you try to base talent evaluations in football on mainly stats, you lose a lot of actual football evaluation in place of numbers. This is a sport based on eleven players moving and working as a unit at the same time. Teams move away from their opponents strengths to try to exploit their weaknesses. Much of this skews the numbers.

One thing I would like to add is this. I believe that avoiding making a huge investment at the QB position helps a FO buy time. An owner knows that his team has no real QB. Once that FO makes that leap to heavily invest in the QB position, the clock starts ticking. At that point the excuses stop and a great deal of pressure is applied for them to succeed. By putting that decision off, it buys them more time.

I'm not saying it was or is the overriding factor in the QB decision making process, but I'm sure they know they'll only have one shot at it. So maybe it's bringing more hesitancy about making that big decision.

That is actually a very good point. The threat is still there even if Wentz has suddenly become checkdown Charlie.

That isn't translating into wins right now though and my thoughts are that if Wentz was on our team right now we'd still be without a win and he'd probably be out for the year already.

Prescott might be a a little different story because of his unique mobility, but it may also be the same there as well.

Was a commentary on how well he blocked this last game.

I'll take Duke over Sproles. both have about the same amount of touches and Duke has more total yds...I know i know "stat boy" Duke is also younger...whats not to like?

In our situation I would take Duke of Sproles also ... cause he's younger .... if we were SB contenders I'd take Sproles in a heartbeat ...

But that has nothing to do with our convo and the context ...

If u have seen both Duke and Sproles play and u can't see that Sproles is a much better football player ... then there's nothing I can say that will help U ...

The eye test as Vers likes to refer to it ...

This is not a slam on Duke ... i like Duke plenty ... hes just not Sproles ...

J/c

I do not agree that the QBs they assembled for this season are so vastly different to require different "offenses".

The point I am making is not one of semantics. There are major deltas between having different offenses and having different playcalling.


I can't get behind the idea that having QBs with different playing styles is reason to question QB evaluation ability.
Patriots have Tom Brady, Grappalo and Jacoby Brissett. Redskins have Kirk Cousins with plus arm stregnth but also have Colt McCoy with pop gun arm. Titans have Marioata and Matt Cassell, someone already mention Dak and Romo, Cam Newton and Derek Anderson etc.

Now, I would agree that having QBs of different playing styles can bring a change to the playcalling which can be a burden for the Offensive Coordinator/playcalling.

And to that extent I think its fair to say that the recent emphasis on pushing the ball downfield style of playcalling has been a detriment to Cody. But I digress...

Here are the basic similarities I see:
o Griffin and McCown- strong arm QBs that can push the ball downfield

o Griffin and Kessler-QBs with plus accuracy and plus mobility

ed, I don't want to make a really big deal out of the differences between RGIII and Cody. I am simply pointing it out as another bit of information. Not a huge deal, but it would be ignorant to not even think about it.

You mentioned some other teams and their QBs. I'd like to take a look a them for a minute.

In NE, Brady and Brissett both have plus arms. Jimmy G relies more on a quick release and is a risk taker, but all three will push the ball down the field.

I already posted about Romo/DAK. Both have plus arms, can buy time in the pocket, and would rather throw than run.

Cousins/McCoy: Both are similar in how they work in the pocket. You do have a point about arm strength, though.

Cam and DA: I don't get this one. Both have cannons and can make every throw in the book.

Some people made a point about the Browns inheriting Josh. That's true and I won't push the point. However, they signed RGIII and then drafted Cody. RGIII loves to throw the ball deep. Cody either can't or won't. This does change your offense.

We were leading the league in rushing until NE figured out what to do w/Cody. Since then, our rushing totals have fallen like a ship's anchor.

While a guy like Wentz can help the running game, a guy like Cody can hurt the running game.

Again, this part of my original argument is not a huge deal. Just something that struck me as odd.

I also want to add that I do not think there is enough evidence available to make any sort of summative evaluation on how well/poor Hue and the FO can evaluate QBs. But man, most of us know we are going to need our franchise qb at some point. We are also 0 and 11 and I thought it might be interesting to talk about rather than just the usual stuff. Not sure why that upset certain posters.....

I dig it.

True, but in terms of running ability the Panther's really do run a 'different' w/ Cam then DA.

We both agree that Cody has arm strength limitations, especially in comparison to Griffin. But they do have accuracy in common. The short/intermediate accuracy is an area to build similar passing concepts.

Agreed. However its more then just Cody lack of ability to connect deep that's limiting the offense. I think its more 'systemic' issue then a Cody issue. But that's a whole 'nother conversation.


...at least this thread is staying somewhat on course, herding cats at times lol

Cody I think will be the QB for the Browns. Just as long as he does not get injured more. And that he is accurate. Needs to work on connecting in the deep.

Vers are you saying right now that Wentz is the answer?because i think wentz would get killed behind this line.

Vers, I am curious as to what you mean when you say that a QB "pushes the ball down the field"?

Is the QB who pushes the ball down the field throwing deep frequently?

I look at Tom Brady's splits, and he has thrown the following:

21-30 yards in the air: 6-9 for 214 yards
31-40 yards in the air: 1-7 for 43 yards
41+ yards in the air: 2-3 116 yards

He's not exactly firing the ball down the field at every chance. Brady is, at heart, a QB who places the ball extremely well, and who gets the ball out faster than almost anyone. He takes shots from time to time. but his game is within 20 yards of the LOS.

Brissett threw a total of 10 passes that went 21+ yards in the air, and he completed only 1 of them. (and he went only 3-16 from 11 yards in the air and up) The vast majority of his passes, and especially his completions, were within 10 yards of the LOS. I am not seeing any great advantage with him.

You also mentioned that Wentz "can help his run game". How exactly? What do you see him doing that leads you to this conclusion? I see defenses as having figured out what Wentz does well, and adjusted. He throes short, so they crowd him, and he still throws short. He's not pushing the ball down the field, and he's completing only 9-30 passes over 21 yards in the air .... with as many INT as TD. 75% of his passes travel 10 yards or less in the air. I just don't see him attacking down the field, and I don't see him pushing the Safety out of the box. As a comparison, he has thrown 91 passes that traveled 111 or more yards in the air, out of 356 attempts.

Kessler has thrown 55 passes of 11+ yards in the air, out of 192 attempts. He actually has thrown a higher percentage of passes in that deeper range than Wentz. Now one thing Kessler has not done is heaving the ball 31+ yards down the field. I don't know if a QB absolutely has to throw those passes in order to succeed though.

I think that Kessler has enough arm to succeed, but he needs to speed up his mental processing .... which sound dumb when he does process things relatively quickly as it is. However, it sometimes seems like he "hiccups" in the pocket, not trusting what he sees, and then he holds onto the ball until he winds up getting himself in trouble. I do think that is correctable. We'll see how things go, though.

YTown.............you don't even watch the games. You admitted that in another forum. Hard to take you seriously when you don't even watch.

bone, I talked about how to stop the Browns w/Cody at QB before Bitonion went down. I saw the Pats employ a defensive strategy that other teams have copied. That strategy is to shorten the field. Stuff the run and dare Cody and the Browns passing game to beat you w/deeper throws. We've had a few drives since then where we dinked and dunked our way down the field and scored, but if you look at it objectively, the points have decreased and the run game has vanished.

I am not saying that losing Bitonio didn't hurt, but man, how do you guys [who say you know football] not recognize what defenses are doing to the Browns w/Cody at QB? Serious question.

I got guys arguing w/me about Wentz. Do you think Wentz wouldn't exploit that type of defense?

And tell me.........who does a better job of calling audibles, making sight adjustments, hot reads, etc between Wentz and Cody? Who recognizes where the pressure is coming from? Who changes protections better? Are those things not important?

Or, is it just losing Bitonio?

I said that I don't watch every game, and that I didn't watch any this past weekend.

Anyway, why don't you just answer my questions? I am curious as to how you justify your statements, when the numbers contradict what you have said.

I watch the games. You do not.

So you have no answers for the points I raised?

I have seen Wentz play a few times, and have been unimpressed with him in some of the latter games. He has been Captain Checkdown in the last 2 or 3 games, especially, that I have watched. You say that he attacks down the field, like you said about Brissett, but the numbers don't support that conclusion. You almost seem to be saying that you are the only one who knows anything, and that even if the numbers say a guy is 1 for 13 throwing down the field, that he is somehow good at stretching the field.

This is why a lot of people don't like trying to debate with you, because you retreat behind "I know so much more than you, and if the evidence contradicts what I say, then the facts must be wrong."

Oh well .... no big deal. Have a good night.

I do have answers and I have put them out there. I have skim-read your posts because you are talking out of your behind and I know how you work things from past dealings w/guys like Timid and Weeden.

You are on disability, correct? If so, how can you afford the ticket? I am guessing you don't have the ticket. I also have seen in other forums where you say you didn't watch the Browns last week and have lost interest in watching other games.

Yet, you come on this thread and act like you are an expert. Pffffttttt....

And if you don't like debating w/me.........then don't.

You have neglected to deal w/my main point when I made this thread and instead turned it into some stupid stat fest about Wentz and Cody. Not ONE GM or NFL coach would take Cody over Wentz. You just need to stop w/your BS!