DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Ray Horton out as Defensive Coordinator

Can you guys quit acting like children for five freaking minutes? The shtick is getting old. Aren't you as bored with it as the rest of us are by now?

And, for the record, I couldn't care less who hates me or stalks me and comments on everything I say because they got their precious little feelings hurt. I like to be where it's FUN, and that certainly isn't DTers anymore so I'm taking another long sabbatical. Enjoy the off season trying to decide who has the bigger hotdog.

Refs, feel free to give me a time out if you must. Just make it last through at least August. Thanks.

I have conflicting feelings. I was weary about Horton but wanted to keep him another year for continuity's sake. Yet here we are, unable to completely avoid offseason shakeup.

I'm not going to gripe about Greg Williams because of Bounty-Gate. I will forever think that was VERY overblown.

But how much of an improvement would he be? And why would we think we're a stable enough franchise to bring the controversy that comes with Williams aboard?

I was telling a coworker just today how REFRESHING it was to go into an offseason completely intact. Now here's that old uneasy, uncertain feeling again.

No. Let me explain in real simple terms so you understand.

- Whose decision this is makes a difference.

- If Haslam is getting criticism for Horton being fired - it must mean that person thinks this was Haslam's decision.

- OTHERWISE - the criticism is because Haslam said "we have the right people in place" - and 5 days later the head coach made the decision to fire his DC .... and Haslam gets criticized for letting his HC do what he wants with his staff .... and that would make no sense what-so-ever, right. It makes no sense because the only other scenario would be Hue wants to fire Horton - but Haslam prevents it because he wants to be true to his word to the media. . . and while there are many differing opinions on here - I don't believe and won't suggest ANYONE thinks Haslam blocking moves that Hue wants to make would be good.

- So very simply -- If people don't know whose decision this is - I can't find a single reason to lambaste Haslam. None.

- And if that's all too much.... bottom line is we fired a bad DC. Why would anyone want to nail Haslam for that? I've stated I feel that the guy was dealt an unfair hand. So what. Boo Hoo. Even if Horton is a sacrificial goat. We are unlikely to do worse. . . . Lets move on.

It's sort of reminds me of when we traded Andy Lee and people thought that was worthy of blasting the FO. We get a 4th round pick for a punter and the same people who want to damn Haslam today wanted to damn the FO for that trade (I think I might be seeing a trend). We pick up another punter who has performs to the same or better level as Lee .... but we have a 4th round pick and people are saying its a bad thing.

We had no talent. From an outsider's perspective it is hard to see a guy fired when he didn't have anything to work with.

This feels like a Hue Jackson move. If it is, it probably means something internally wasn't working for the head coach.

I would have loved to keep the same system for more than one year (we have fired a head coach or coordinator every year since 2009), but I understand the need to make a change if things weren't heading the right direction.

Foget about it , lol . This non stop crap has been going on way to long and just clutters up the board .. Same folks day in day out ..

Wait! What?

Are you suggesting I am ignorant?

LOL...........I didn't read the rest of the post because it was clearly for show. I think anyone who has read me over the years knows I am far from ignorant.

But, thanks for not disappointing.

Like if Pet would have fired O'Neil..Pet would still have a job feel ?

jc

With how bad our team was at making tackles I honestly don't mind getting rid of him. To be honest I would rather move to a 4-3 myself because we don't have the CB for a 3-4 defense.

nothing has been posted by the Browns as of yet in any official channel.

Wait.................so you are saying that DC's teach tackling in the NFL?

Better fit for our roster imo.

I am still waiting. Were you in the room w/Haslam, the FO guys, and Hue when the decision to fire Horton was made?

I just wanna know for..........what was it you said...........oh yeah...."for the record."

What are they suppose to teach ?

No. I think that there was a major rift between the coaching staff and Farmer.

Could it simply be that maybe they've come to realize that Horton's defense may not be a good fit for such a young roster? Not necessarily it's a bad defense, but for as complex as it is, and if he maintained the reputation of throwing it at them in the beginning and letting them figure it out as they go, it's not one that would play to the strengths of such a young team.

Maybe it's as simple as stepping back and looking at the big picture and seeing that this is going to be a young roster for at least another 2 seasons. And realistically coming to an understanding that it just isn't going to happen how they originally hoped.

Now some will say "But Devil! If the Harvard Boys are so smart they would have recognized this in the first place!" Maybe, maybe not. I think they had a good idea just how young this roster would be which is why the recurring theme throughout the entire 2016 Draft was....?

Players who were productive, smart, and football junkies. Students of the game.

It's a risky combination, but these would be the obvious types of players you would draft in order to mitigate the learning curve of a complex defense.


As far as some of the claims around here about Horton being the scapegoat and the victim of a poor roster... maybe he shouldn't have taken the job? I find it hard to believe that during the interview he was not told any of the plans for this season and the amount of youth and inexperience the players he was going to be dealing with would have. ANd while he may not have had a lot of top talent, it's not like he didn't have any experience on that side of the ball.

The last 2 games is how this defense should have been playing all season long.

I agree cfrs, it would appear something wasn't workin internally. I think the first indicator of this was when Hue took off the headset to chew out and fire up Horton's defensive unit.

Well, considering they don't tackle much in practice.............what do you think?

Agreed...good point... You don't feel this could be the same situation ?

No, I don't think it is that simple. They knew what they were getting. The team sucked. Someone had to go. That is what the Browns do. Horton was a scapegoat for the poor job the FO did in putting together a roster.

I think NFL players are kind of on the lazy show off side..You coached younger players... didn't it seem they wanted to learn how to tackle good ?

I honestly don't understand the NFL anymore Vers...Pros..Ugh

Yeah, if you go to TC, you see they don't even practice tackling anymore.

What a sad thing...seems the biggest complaint about NFL players is the lack of tackling and the wanting to get on the espn highlights reel.

I used to feel there wasn't such a big jump from Collage to the Pros. Then I realized... Most Vets are in the league for a minimum of what 10 yrs..

I have to re track my view of rookies and younger players.. I guess the older guys have years of experience..

The team now has a very young team..Hopefully with the right Coaching and contracts to keep them together to learn and grow..We may see a good team soon..

Thanks for your input...

MKC posted on twitter that the Browns reached out to Gus Bradley too, and that Gus is also a top candidate for the Redskins DC position.

Just so I'm getting this straight Vers... and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just laying out how your position is coming across to me. Not picking a fight, but honestly asking for clarification of your position.

You admit (as I do) we weren't in the room when the decision to fire Horton was made.

You've also asserted as I understand it that Horton's canning is a result of being scapegoated for such a poor roster.

Who exactly gave him the roster? Haslam? Sashi/DePo?... Hue?

Depending on who's decision it was, entirely speaks to the motives and reasons for his departure. Maybe he is a scapegoat for Sashi. Maybe Hue thought he should have gotten more out of the defense. Maybe Horton said he couldn't take it anymore and said adios!

Now this is my own $.02, you may not agree with me, but I think you, mac, and I think a lot of others who aren't necessarily as critical of the FO have grossly underestimated how much influence Hue actually has in this set up. I believe he's running more of the show than most think. Here's some things that point me in that direction:

-Consensus has been from the beginning that Hue had sole discretion in the coaches we brought on board.
-I don't know that it's ever been confirmed to be a certainty, but it's generally been believed the QB's we got were Hue's choices as well.
-A month or so ago Sashi was talking about how much he has been leaning on Hue in the realm of player evaluations

There might be a couple much more minor things, but these are the basis.

And now we have Haslam saying last week he was happy with the personell. Mac is trying his hardest to paint him as a liar, but it just as easily says that from his spot he actually does like them, but his HC believes its an area that can be improved so he rolls with it. Again pointing to Hue steering the ship.

You know, every week guys like Grossi and the rest of the media kept wondering when someone in charge was going to come to podium and got bent in the worst ways because Sashi or DePo or Haslam weren't out there.

More and more I think we DID see the man in charge. We saw him 16 times.

But that's where I'm seeing things at the moment. I'm also seeing them form the cheap seats so... lol

I USED to think that Haden would be a good candidate to convert over to FS one day... then I watch how he tries to "tackle" in run support... it's atrocious! He doesn't even attempt to wrap up smh

I feel wrapping up should be a natural thing... I played LB in the high school level.. But I loved to wrap up and then slam down... lol

I never will understand the loss of that feeling...but then I didn't play at other levels...

And Honestly..I feel if I did..I may have tackled harder.. It was just the way I thought...

I really appreciate your attempt at not being accusatory and trying to be understanding. That's rare around here. I respect you for that.

I don't have all the answers to your questions, Devil. I never really claimed to. I just jump guys like Memphis who try to act like they were in the room w/the powers that be. They say stupid crap like......."Are you on the record of............." LOL.

I am not going to assign blame to any one individual, because I was not in the room and I do not know what went on. However, I am going to assign blame to the organization.

I do not care who the DC was this year, that defense was going to suck. I said it BEFORE the season. I don't get how people are surprised by how poorly the D played???

And Devil...........how much better did the O play? Check the stats.

Then WE go hard after him and offer him substantially more money. There is no salary cap on staff. If we are switching to yet ANOTHER defensive scheme it would be nice to get a guy like Bradley.

Oh yeah, the O had it's share of suckage too! lol

Now a couple things that could possibly make me back off my position that Hue is in the driver seat is if

a) Sashi or Haslam announce the new DC instead of Hue. I think that could be telling.

and b) if we announce we are getting an official OC... that to me doesn't matter who makes the announcement so much, but I would make me entertain the idea a little more that Hue may not be the one holding Swagger's leash.

You guys get any snow yet your way? It's just cold rain towards Central NC at the moment.

If I remember correctly, Rex Ryan is available isn't he? Wouldn't that shake things up!!!

OMG, I gotta laugh...seriously...


The rants....the rants....Haslam said we are not blowing anything up (poster pulls hair out, arrrgh! )....I want to know who made the decision (poster mad, going to kick his arse! Oh the indignation of it all! ) ....yadda, yadda, yadda!

....who cares what YOU want....what are YOU going to do do about it? Fire Jimma?

Firing a coordinator IS NOT BLOWING THINGS UP!

Horton has sucked for a long, long time....doesn't matter what he had to work with....he never should have been hired...


Geez....

There is a possibility, however slim, that Hue and Horton just didn't get along. Not like they had been coaching together a long time... Sometimes personalities clash. I'm not saying this the case here, just saying there are other reasons that may be in play...

Well take with a huge grain of salt but the beat ( and national guys) are hinting it was Hue's decision on Twitter and the like.

Personally I could care less who's decision it was because it speaks bad to all of them imo. This is ridiculous to give a guy one year to turn around a D with zero talent.....and I don't care if it's Haslem, Sasha's, Paul's, or Haslem's idea.....it's just frigging dumb.

If the owner is pressuring FO is Hue to scapegoat a coach well that is obviously crap. If Hue hired a guy 10 months ago to do a job that he knew wasn't going to be easy and then fires him 10 months later......well that tells me more about Hue then Horton.

We are screwed either way because at LEAST one of these arms has proven itself incompetent on some level.

In that case, we should fire Hue for hiring him in the first place. IIRC Horton had a pretty good D out in Arizona. I think if he had the talent he might be a really good DC. However, if they fire him I don't really care. Nothing invested in the guy one way or the other. Fair is fair, though. Can't say "should have never been hired" without going after the guy that HIRED him.

If Hue doesn't want him then it may be due to personality conflict. Either way, I am a believer in an HC being the last word on coaching staff personnel.

the news isnt on nfl website...im ok with it.

Great football post.

No - I wasn't saying your ignorant. You deliberately misrepresent what I and others said. You are worse than a troll.

the ryan brothers are looking for a job. so isnt pettin...

Just remember Haslem said not to put any stock in what MK write about so until I hear this from a better source than speculation i'm not gonna worry about it.

Yeah I agree. Most threads turn out pretty much the same. Someone could start a thread about the shape of a football field, and by page two it'd be a few posters bickering about agendas and "name calling".

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Regarding the decision...meh. I don't think Horton was great, but he definitely didn't have the talent to show how good or bad he actually was. He essentially had a JV team out there.

I think there is definitely more to gain by keeping him, solely for continuity and familiarity of our players, rather than changing it out. I have a feeling our D would look a lot better next year simply because the players are familiar with it.

But oh well, it's probably not that big of a deal. If we get a few good players this offseason, the next DC will look great. If our draft picks/FA signings suck, the next DC will look bad. The wheels keep turning.

The continued defensive success in Seattle with Bradley and Quinn (and the defensive failures of Bradley and Quinn) make me wonder how much credit we should attribute to the former coaches and how much credit we should attribute to Carroll, Schneider, and the players (Thomas, Sherman, Chancellor, Bennett, Avril, Wagner, etc.).