DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum If we switch to a base 4-3

What do you think about the roster if we switch to a base 4-3? Does that potential switch change your preference for draft-eligible defenders?

I know very little about how the DBs are affected in such a switch...so I won't even go there.

I think Ogbah, Nassib, Shelton, Bryant are all fine in a 4-3. (Based purely on what I see and from a very limited understanding of # technique ability.) I don't see that being so good for the other guys but I could easily be wrong there.

I'm perplexed by our LBs in any base. I don't think we have ONE LB who is such a lock in the 3-4 that they cannot play in a 4-3. Kirksey and Collins I think would be fine - if not very very good. I don't know if we have a third starter there...I'm guessing Collins would be the MLB and maybe Orchard could be opposite Kirksey? I don't think Shobert is a 3-4 guy at all...I don't think Holmes can switch to DE...I don't care for D Davis in either scheme but maybe he can play in a 4-3?

I'd like to read what others think about that?

Such a switch also makes me lean towards J Allen over M Garrett. I'm not doubting that Garrett can play in either scheme...but if they are of comparable value, I think Allen becomes a more-certain fit.

I realize that this may be a premature topic...but what else are we going to talk about right now?

It wont change much, because teams are in "base" not even half the time anymore.

That being said, Ogbah clearly feels more comfortable with his hand in the ground. Nassib is not forced to gain weight, Cooper now fits...

Its not a bad thing.

Would you see Cooper as a DT or DE?

3-tech DT for sure. His quickness would finally be used properly.

No it's not a bad thing.

Now you've got the same 2 STUDS staring at you at #1.

Garrett opposite Ogbah at Ends.
Allen at DT.

Here's the BIG one.

Rueben Foster at MLB.

So are we thinking then to move Kirksey to OLB?

J/c

I I was building a 43 w/ the current personnel:

SAM-Collins
Mike-D.Davis/Shobert
Will-Kirksey

RDE-Ogbah
3-tech-Paea/Cooper
DT-Shelton
LDE-Nassib

If you're the Browns, and you really want to get after the QB, the pick should be Garrett if you're going to have a 4-3 base scheme. If you get Gus Bradley as your DC, you'll be running a Cover 3 4-3, which means the DE's and the secondary is extremely important.

Why not have Kirksey as the middle, Collins as one OLB, and perhaps draft another if no one fits the 3rd position?

Where would you slot Bryant and Meder?

I think a switch to the 4-3 makes switch as long as we do not have to cut talent to make the switch. So many coaches switch from 1 Defense to another and cut proven players because they don't fit their scheme. You are the coach. Put together a defense that fits to your best players talent.

I think with Myles Garrett drafted #1 the 4-3 makes the most sense. Would give the Browns bookend defensive ends that can get after the QB. Onlt position I see that we currently do not have on the roster that fits the 4-3 is a middle linebacker. But, there is 2 really good Middle Linebackers in this upcoming draft. Rueben Foster and Raekwon McMillion.

DE - Myles Garrett - Back up Cam Johnson
DT - Desmond Bryant - Back Up Xavier Cooper
DT - Danny Shelton - Bak Up - Jamie Meder
DE - Emmanuel Ogbah - Back Up - Carl Nassib

SSLB - Jamie Collins - Back Up - Nate Orchard
MLB - ????? Back Up - DeMario Davis
WSLB - Christian Kirksey - Back Up - Joe Schobert

People are getting caught up on who will play linebacker when only two (or one) of them will be on the field most of the time.

We should be talking about who our third and fourth corners are instead of who will play 20% of the snaps at mike linebacker.

Pass rusher, pass rusher, tackle, pass rusher
Linebacker, linebacker,
Defensive back, defensive back, defensive back, defensive back, defensive back

I am all for it if a 43 brings more pressure, presses receivers harder, tackles, contains, creates turnovers, and, at times, scores. We could also cover the flat occasionally.

All in on that. All out of patience with this defense the way it was played. Must have been called 'Marshmallow - Cover None' or maybe 34 Fold Up Your Tent. Never seemed to adjust week to week, melted in second halves, saw some individual improvements, but failed as a unit. All for a 43 if it is aggressive enough to be successful, and players are flag free usually in the secondary.

Assuming we will be drafting Garrett, we are only 1 piece away from having a great 3-4 front. Only thing missing is a 3-4 DE. And who's to say we won't pick that up in the draft.

I prefer we the 3-4 just bc it gives more exotic looks.

I think it's a little more dynamic too. However we should really be asking if we want to pay in a 3-3-5 or a 4-2-5.

If we go 4-3 what is our system?
Tampa 2 zone stretch?
Jim Johnson's shoot the gap and speed everywhere?\
Bend dont Break make a mistake?
Wide 9 mismatching
46?

a lot of different systems out of the 4-3 concept. Wade Phillips is gonna attack from either 4-3 or 3-4 doesnt matter much to him. Cant have enough pass rushers to suit him. Everyone gets a turn at rushing the QB lol

Greg Williams is gonna play guys that are fast and can hit. Hell we could see Kindred playing wil lol

Well according to bleacher it's official. Williams is hired.

Yep, I'm reading a list of all the defensive assistants he's bringing along. All of them were with him in L.A.

Edit: it's just speculation.

And ONLY La Confora is saying Williams accepted.

j/c (responding to multiple posts/ideas)

I think Orchard goes back to DE rather than OLB, and think Ogbah will see significant time inside on passing downs. A nickel of Garrett, Cooper, Ogbah, and Nassib/Orchard could have some juice especially if we blitz Collins/Kirksey along with it.

I agree with ed on Collins being a SAM, Demario the MLB, and Kirksey the Will. Think Schobert would be Kirksey's backup, though. Not sure about the other backups. Too bad Scooby Wright got picked up by Arizona, I think he'd be a decent 4-3 Mike. Prolly end up with Tank at MLB and Johnson at Sam unless we draft someone like Raekwon in the 2nd.

Meder is probably Shelton's backup.

We need help on the backend no matter what defense we run.

Grimm I def agree about orchard. Not sure why people thought he'd be a lb. Frankly all he does well is rush and he hasn't proven that yet.

I think it's likely Schobert could be Mike or Sam purely because of Dom Alexander. He was undersized in the 34 but he could really shine as a will. Plus Sho would likely blitz more from Mike or Sam, a specialty of his.

It's likely cooper and orchard just got their jobs saved. Both would have been likely cut and replaced by rooks eventually but fit much better in williams 43.

This will make us deep at DT as well. Bryant was pretty good in a 43. Him and Danny should be formidable. The real weak point is RE now. Sure 3 tech could use allen but the difference between him and Bryant isn't near the gap of orchard and Garrett.

trading out of the #1 overall pick and then trying to pick up allen. Allen becomes a more beneficial pick up after a switch to a 4-3.

Why is he more beneficial after the switch?

because in a 4-3 the two DT need to be monsters as they are the point of the spear so to speak. We have Danny already so adding allen would finish of that tip.

Its a tough call though. Garret or allen plus a pick. I can see both working for us. I mean Medar could always play next to Danny and then garret from the DE spot would still look great to me.

If we traded down to far and lost both garrett and allen then I would be very upset.

Oh I thought you had a preference. Because the stance you're taking is odd to me. You think Allen is more beneficial meaning you'd be more comfortable starting nate orchard at RE than Des Bryant at DT? I have to disagree very strongly.

But if extra pics is what you really covet Derek Barnett might not be as athletic as Garrett but he'll be a double digit sack guy from the Weak side for a long time and you could get him by trade down or maybe even 12 if you're lucky. I'd argue hes as safe as pick as it gets. We have so much depth at DT now that we've switched I really don't want to waste such an asset on another. Even if it is allen.

The depth chart as it stands imo would be...(anyone with a # is roster fodder)

LE: Ogbah, Nassib, #Wynn
NT: Shelton, Meder, Paea, #Stample
DT: Bryant, Cooper, #Wright
RE: Orchard, #Holmes

Sam: Collins, Schobert, #Johnson
Mike: Davis, Carder
Will: Kirksey, #Burgess

We need depth at LB big time. The starters should do well. Davis may be listed as a starter but shouldn't see more thexpensive field in sub packages so he could shine as a downhill run stuffer on 1st and 2nd.

RE is atrocious. Technically you could pencil Ogbah over and start nassib but now you have a liability at LE and a stiff RE. Ogbah should play a long time as a LE if we take garrett or another of the top RE prospects. Add a plus RE and our nickle front 6 will be very formidable. Can't say the say the same for the db.

I dont care what "formation" we run, no way in heck can we pass on Myles Garrett. The only exception is if someone gave us a no brainer trade.

Very possible we go Allen. Very.

We need to be smart and let Williams look at everyone we've currently got and let Williams make the decision at #1..

Does he want the DT or the DE. He's had Donald and Quinn.

Would be more satisfied with Allen and Ogbah? Or Garrett and say Cooper or Shelton?

We can't lose at #1 regardless of who we go with.

Either way our Front 4 is getting a serious boost.

Then comes FA. Trumaine Johnson CB and TJ MacDonald S are both available. What does LA do with a new HC and DC?

Personally, I'd go this route:

Get MacDonald in here
Go get Gilmore away from Buffalo and that pathetic place
Take Garrett at 1.
Take Foster at 12.

Garrett/Cooper/Shelton/Ogbah
Kirksey/Foster/Collins
Haden/Gilmore/Taylor/Calhoun
Kindred/MacDonald

I'd get over not landing Hooker pretty quickly.

Almost forgot.

Give Billy Boy 33 and whatever for Garoppolo.

Question about Allen in the 4-3

Would he play DT or DE that moves inside on passing downs?

The Rams had four defensive linemen 85.54% of the time (we had four linemen about 40% of the time last year).

https://twitter.com/PFF_JohnKosko/status/817942390132576256

They were in nickel 72% of the time.

https://twitter.com/PFF_JohnKosko/status/817944747641860096

To ed specifically but certainly not exclusively:

Whould you care to reply as to why you'd place those guys where you did? I'd also like input on what the 4-3 means as far as DBs go.

To anyone who wants to respond:

Is any current player an absolute NON-FIT in the 4-3? Any potential draftees now off your board?

There were some good comments in here about the alignment when not in the base...where do players fit in the 4-3 base and/or that base nickel? (ie Ogbah to DT?)

Help me out here? How can that be? 85% + 72% means I'm missing something

I don't think there is any way to get Hooker - I agree.

But based on that front 7 ... I would rather roll with Orchard - or - one of our other young backers - or a FA signing - playing OLB - keep Kirksey inside .... and then drafting a top CB at 12 or Safety if Adams falls to us. I am not high on Kindred - and I don't have faith in Haden/Taylor as your two best CB's - would like to get a replacement for Haden in case [1] he gets injured again [2] his play this year was indicative of how he will play even when 100% healthy.

They had four defensive linemen 85% of the time.

They were in nickel 72% of the time.

I think that's a good question. I think moving to a 4-3 doesn't hurt any player on the roster and may benefit some. I don't see any total non-fits... I don't think it prevents you taking any of the top talent either.

It does mean that Allen's versatility might become more attractive .... making a trade down to 3 or 4 maybe more viable while still getting the players that we want. . .

LBs get pulled. Extra DBs in nickel and dime packages.

When coming out Orchard was touted as being a pass rusher



Would Orchard be an option at weakside or as a legit pass rushing end? Just thinking out loud with the ingredients we have as I think Ogbah is stout enough against the run and also good against the pass.

Not saying we cant't do with Garrett at all by the way. Garrett or Allen immediately improve the front. If we took Garrett, someone like Jarron Jones may be available mid rounds to pair with Shelton.

4DL when playing nickel - the extra CB is replacing a LB.

Orchard is an end when there are four down linemen.

Collins, if we retain him, and Kirksey should be plenty good enough to be our two linebackers.