The only thing I say about Horton is that he is a TRUE 3-4 believer. He might not be flexible to create a defense that is tailored to the talent the Browns have.
I have posted that that premise is untrue several times.
The Browns never stop w/the madness. Now, they hire a guy who was suspended from the league for his lead role in Bountygate.
The only thing I say about Horton is that he is a TRUE 3-4 believer. He might not be flexible to create a defense that is tailored to the talent the Browns have.
I have posted that that premise is untrue several times.
The Browns never stop w/the madness. Now, they hire a guy who was suspended from the league for his lead role in Bountygate.
Since William's has been suspended too, maybe we can move Gordon to the defensive side where he'll have a sympathic coach and possibly he can learn to hit something besides a joint.
Williams did his time as far as I'm concerned. I'm hoping that we can see a Shelton like improvement in at least some of the rookies next year. Along with 3 of 4 new shiny pieces on the defense, I'm hoping we at least make a leap out of the bottom 3rd. I am the eternal optimist
Perhaps you should research Williams. It isn't only the bountygate and despite what some posters are saying, it is not a common thing.
Additionally, the problems the Browns had on defense was about lack of talent, rather than coaching.
Last year, all I read on here was how terrible O'Neil was and how Horton was such an upgrade. Next year, I'll be reading how Williams was a terrible hire and only then will his character be called into question.
The problem with our defense was a lack of talent. Horton was not canned for being a bad coach. He was canned more do to a difference in philosophy on our defense moving forward. Ray wants to run his scheme and wants players that best suit his scheme, and the team wants schemes devised that best suit the talent the team is trying to acquire. They want the defense to be more flexible based on the talent we will have. Not to depend on a set scheme so much.
Perhaps you should research Williams. It isn't only the bountygate and despite what some posters are saying, it is not a common thing.
Additionally, the problems the Browns had on defense was about lack of talent, rather than coaching.
Last year, all I read on here was how terrible O'Neil was and how Horton was such an upgrade. Next year, I'll be reading how Williams was a terrible hire and only then will his character be called into question.
j/c
Maybe the bounty in terms of $$$ changing hands is not common...but the Squeelers sure do a great job of knocking our players out of the game and I'd bet they talk about that before and after the game.. I'm ready for some payback in that regard.
I don't remember anyone on THIS board claiming that Horton was going to be such an upgrade...other than for the fact that it couldn't get any worse than what O'Neill was doing here...or so it was believed.
To my recollection, there was much more concern about Horton on this board than there was optimism.
A possible positive outcome of Williams coming to Cleveland, if the Browns keep him, is how Des Bryant might be used. If I'm not mistaken, Bryant made his paper in Cleveland after playing in a 43 D. I even think primarily as a DT, he played DE as well. Again, if the Browns keep him, because he is older and just coming off a serious injury, he could be a huge beneficiary of this switch.
Ogbah-Bryant-Shelton-Garrett (possibly)
Could be a pretty good defensive line.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
A possible positive outcome of Williams coming to Cleveland, if the Browns keep him, is how Des Bryant might be used. If I'm not mistaken, Bryant made his paper in Cleveland after playing in a 43 D. I even think primarily as a DT, he played DE as well. Again, if the Browns keep him, because he is older and just coming off a serious injury, he could be a huge beneficiary of this switch.
Ogbah-Bryant-Shelton-Garrett (possibly)
Could be a pretty good defensive line.
Didn't know Bryant moved in as DT....that would be great to have Garrett and Ogbah at the Ends. I like Meder but, kinda think he is the odd man out.
Yeah, I thought he played as a 43 DT when in Oakland so it wouldn't be a dramatic change for him. I like Meder too, but I think we can upgrade on him with the the main four. I'm cool with him being a backup/rotational guy.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
Additionally, the problems the Browns had on defense was about lack of talent, rather than coaching.
Last year, all I read on here was how terrible O'Neil was and how Horton was such an upgrade. Next year, I'll be reading how Williams was a terrible hire and only then will his character be called into question.
I think the problems were both. It's not so black and white though. O'Neil was downright awful IMO. He's the reason Pettine had to be fired. Pettine rolled with that guy, and we went down the tubes. With a defense that had some talent too.
Ray Horton was a step up, but I wad disappointed with him too. I get that the talent wasn't there, but I do think some coaches get more out of less. Like I've said, long-term DC guys like Crennel and Wade Philips have good defenses, over and over.
Wade Philips would have been my guy, but I get the feeling he might be tough to work with. I do think that Gregg Williams is a step up, and I like the idea of switching to 4-3. Right from the start, 4-3 under Dick Jauron was my favorite of the defenses we have rolled out anytime recently.
So it's like choosing between eating a turd (O'Neil) and poorly prepared grits (Horton). I'd rather eat poorly prepared gritts, but i'd prefer grits with lots of cheese and butter (Gregg Williams). Grits with cheese butter and well done shrimp sounds best, but that might not have been an option or maybe Hue Jackson simply doesn't like Shrimp on his grits (bad fit) or maybe the shrimp wasn't available.
Either way, Horton (Okay) was a million times better than O'Neil (the worst we've had in a long time), and I think Williams (Good) will be better for us than Horton.
So it's like choosing between eating a turd (O'Neil) and poorly prepared grits (Horton). I'd rather eat poorly prepared gritts, but i'd prefer grits with lots of cheese and butter (Gregg Williams). Grits with cheese butter and well done shrimp sounds best, but that might not have been an option or maybe Hue Jackson simply doesn't like Shrimp on his grits (bad fit) or maybe the shrimp wasn't available.
I agree with your take completely. Including how Petine hurt himself by sticking with O'Neil. I hadn't realized O'Neil had got another DC opportunity. Shocking.
Horton was an improvement - and for the sake of continuity and giving the guy a chance with better talent I would have been fine with keeping him .... but it's a "meh" sort of moment once he goes. I'd rather Hue has who he wants - and if that is Gregg Williams I think it's an improvement based on his past performances and top 10 defenses. . . . Bountygate was wrong - he's paid his price and been punished, happy that he gets another chance after serving that punishment. . . . I think there are a lot of other teams that probably ran something very similar who didn't get scrutinized like the Saints did ... it is not at all like Williams was doing something unique even though he was punished as if he was.
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
How many of the "highly talented" Browns Defensive coordinators that have been fired over the past 10 years or so, have had successful Defensive coordinator careers for other organizations?
All the crap bout his "character" just makes me laugh. He did a bad thing with bountygate, but was punished and moved on. Some folks here would complain if we hired God for DC. It's just what they do.
Williams' defenses have been good. Horton's defenses have not. I will personally be glad to not have to hear Horton read his stats off in pressers trying to justify the bad play of the defense.
Talent was low on our defense, but not as bad as many make it sound. Horton was here last time and third down was a big problem, and so was covering the TE. Talent was lacking, but his defensive playcalling and scheme is suspect. It was the same at his last stop.
My friend is a big Rams fan, and he loved what Williams did with there defense. Until this year, they were always one of the better defenses in the league.
The FO definately needs to bring in some competent DBs, what we have now is lacking. I believe the rookies Ogbah and Nassib could develop into some good players.
A defense with some attitude would be nice. I'm all for good character, but we need some players with that nasty attitude. Sick of our defense being a bunch of cream puffs.
Logical points, but I really disagree w/some of your points.
Williams is known for his arrogance, so I don't get how you can say Phillips would have been harder to work with.
I also don't think that Horton is nearly as bad as you claim. Again, it was a talent issue. Worst secondary in the league and not one true pass rusher. That makes it very difficult to succeed.
Williams had a star-studded D w/the Rams, yet they gave up 30 plus points six times and over 40 three times. They even gave up 28 to SF.
I also don't like Cover 2. Too many ways it can be exploited for big plays and it has fundamental weaknesses against the run.
I also don't like losing continuity. Reportedly, Williams will bring in other coaches. A wasted year for our young players.
There is not a year that goes by where this team doesn't make big changes. Not one! Changing coaches is not going to solve the problems that exist w/the Browns.
Discontent and dysfunction among coaches doesn't lend itself to player development or success either. You defend Hue as do I, that being said then it's Hues call and he seems to have made it. I'll stand by his determination.
Logical points, but I really disagree w/some of your points.
Williams is known for his arrogance, so I don't get how you can say Phillips would have been harder to work with.
Didn't know that about the arrogance. The Wade Phillips thing I just said out out speculation. Let me reword it, "Maybe Wade Phillips is hard to work with". People don't always connect, and maybe Phillips and Jackson aren't Comfortable with eachother or just aren't that friendly. I don't know if they have any connections (nor do I know about Williams and Jackson though)
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
I also don't like losing continuity. Reportedly, Williams will bring in other coaches. A wasted year for our young players.
There is not a year that goes by where this team doesn't make big changes. Not one! Changing coaches is not going to solve the problems that exist w/the Browns.
I agree a bit there, but continuity for the sake of continuity isn't good either. And I also think it's a big stretch to call it "A wasted year". Football is football and I'm sure just by playing (whether it's 3-4 or 4-3), they've gained more than nothing in experience.
Continuity is necessary toward success, but if something's wrong, you're better off fixing it right away than just letting it continue for the sake of continuity. At least that's my theory
Oh, there was one more thing that wanted to address.
You said:
Quote:
long-term DC guys like Crennel and Wade Philips have good defenses, over and over.
Man, Houston's D is loaded. Watt, Clowney, Mercelis, Demps, Joseph, Cushing, Jackson, etc. That defense is star-studded.
In Denver, Phillips had Von Miller, Ware, Talib, Harris, Stewart, Jackson, etc.
Moral of the story............get a DC superior talent and he looks pretty damn good.
That's fair, but both were successful on many many different teams. That's the thing. Romeo was very good with New England, he was good with us with that UFO Defense (at least with what we had), his defense in KC was good.
Phillips similar. His Houston Defenses were good, His Chargers Defenses were good, his Denver Defenses were good.
Did all those teams have lots of talent. I guess. But there just seems to be a pattern.
And i'm not putting Williams in those guy's categories. IMO, they're probably the two best in the NFL (guys who are DCs)
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
You debate politely. I respect that. It's cool if we disagree. At least it's a civil conversation.
LA has a god awful offense. Worst in the league, IMO. They turned an elite runner like Todd Gurley into a below average running back. They had something like 6 TD's scored by turnovers.
So it's not totally fair to grade Williams on this year. Other years in STL, Williams had very good defenses. Almost carried them to the playoffs one year, IIRC.
Moral of the story............get a DC superior talent and he looks pretty damn good.
AMEN
Ask folks how good The Texans D-line coach is and you will get a different answer than you did after the 2015 season.
Its easy to coach experienced talent but its not anyone can develop said talent. There are good coaches that arent good teachers and then there are good coaches that are great teachers. Williams has the rep for being the latter.
Look at the 5th bullet point down. "He adapts the scheme to the talent he has. He's going to bring the type of D I'm looking for"
So Hue said the same thing I was thinking. Again, we did not give Horton much to work with and I think the D improved by the end of the year. Plus we had ALOT of rookies playing which I'm sure hit the rookie "Wall".
SO Williams is in. I hope between some Free Agent pick ups and our players getting another year, we will improve.
Hue Jackson details Gregg Williams hire, discusses ongoing evaluation
Opening statement: “I thought it was important that I had a chance to talk to you guys so we can have the right narrative out there as opposed to what everybody is thinking. Fire away, and we will go from there.”
On the decision to change defensive coordinators:
“What I said when the season was over was I was going to go back and look at everything. All of these decisions, I think you guys all know are very difficult, but it is my job to make sure that I am creating the right environment to create a championship team and a winning organization. I don’t want anybody to take that this is just about (former Browns defensive coordinator) Ray (Horton). This is really about my vision. It is about what I am trying to create here in Cleveland and how I see it and what I think it is going to take for us to get there. This isn’t just Ray. I know it looks like that. I know it looks like he gets caught up in it and however you guys want to say that, but it is not about that. It is bigger to me than that. I needed to look at our staff and I needed to look at our team and figure out what is going to be the best way for us moving forward so that I can bring winning to the Cleveland Browns. That’s what I was interested in doing. These are tough decisions. These are hard decisions, but they are decisions to me from a leadership position that have to be made if you are going to create the winning environment that I hope to create here.”
On understanding the perception that Horton may be used as a scapegoat for the team’s season:
“Right, well, I do. That is why I am telling you guys that I am disappointed that everybody is making it that way. If anybody, the finger is pointed back at me. It is not pointed at Ray. At the end of the day, the whole buck stops with me. I get it. I know what it looks like and what the perception is, but that is not what it is. This is my decision. This is through my time of thinking through what I think is going to be best for us moving forward for our football team and where I want to take it and what I thought we needed to do to get there. There are decisions that are going to be made that are very difficult. They are hard, but you have to make them if that is where you are trying to go. I feel very comfortable in what we have done and where we are trying to head. I thank the organization for allowing me to do the things that I think need to be done to get to where we need to be.”
On why defensive coordinator Gregg Williams brings the Browns closer to having a championship team:
“He is one of the better coordinators in the National Football League, and I think that is proven. The guy has a ton of skins on the wall doing this in a lot of different places with a lot of different players and a lot of different systems. I need growth over there as fast as I can get it. I truly believe in his track record and what he has done. Like I said, this wasn’t an easy decision. I agonized over this probably more than anybody because it does, it does hurt some people, but when I look at it at the end of the day, I have to do what I think is right to get us to where we need to be. I think Gregg is that guy.”
On his relationship with Williams and how Williams rebounded after being suspended by the NFL:
“It says that he is a guy who put his head down and went back to work and went back to doing what he is extremely good at, which is coaching defense. It means that someone gave him an opportunity to get back to where he needed to be, and he has shown that he is still a very good defensive mind from before all that. I am just glad that we are having an opportunity to have him be a part of our staff and help us get to where we are trying to go.”
On if Williams’ defensive system is a better match for the Browns’ defensive personnel:
“His system gives us a chance, and what he has done is adapt many different schemes that he has been a part of and that he knows to the talent that is there. We all know we are going to have an opportunity to improve our football team as we move forward through free agency and the draft, and I think that is very important. He is going to bring us the type of defense that I am looking for as we move forward here.”
On if Williams’ past Bountygate suspension and if he can ensure that culture does not come to Cleveland:
“Oh, we have had conversations about it, but I think that is behind him. You said it – that was from years ago. Obviously, he has already paid the price for that. I think that is behind him as well. We will not be having a Bountygate situation in Cleveland. We are here to try to do the best job we can of winning football games and putting the best football team that we can out on the football field.”
On how much developing the Browns’ young talent on defense factored into the decision to hire Williams:
“Everything factored in. I looked at it all. I looked at the players, the coaches, schematically and everything. It was not a fly by night decision. This was really thought out, and it was tough. A lot of coaches are having some downtime right now. I did not have any downtime. I spent my time trying to figure out what is the best way to get this organization and to create the championship culture and get to winning as fast as we could. This is the decision I have come up with. I feel very comfortable in that, and I think it is the right thing for our organization and our football team.”
On if [censored] new defensive staff, but I am going to allow him to bring some guys who I think are going to help sell the message of what we are trying to create on defense. He is going to interview guys, and we are going to kind of go from there. Will there be changes? Yeah, there will probably be some changes. That is all part of it, too.”
On if the Browns will now run a 4-3 base defense:
“It is safe to say we are going to be what we think is best to help our football team be as good as we need to be on defense. Gregg comes from a lot of different backgrounds. He comes from a 4-3 system. He comes from a 3-4 system. He has done a little bit of it all. We need to look at our personnel and see where we are and find out what is best to get our men to play the best we can get them to play.”
On his favorite part of Williams’ defense:
“They are very aggressive and attacking. They make you go the long, hard route to score touchdowns. That is what playing football in the National Football League is all about. His defenses have demonstrated that they tackle well and that the ball is not thrown over their head big time. In order to be a really good defense, the characteristics I just mentioned, you have to have.”
On if Williams will be able to get more production from younger Browns players:
“The plan is to improve these players every way that we can. I would hope that our young players do take the next jump next year and become huge contributing members to our football team. As I said, we are going to put other players on this football team who as well need to be developed and placed within our system and play extremely well and play extremely hard. That is what I am chasing. I have a vision of what I want our defense to play like and look like, and I am going to get that. That is what I am looking forward to.”
On if the Browns will retain the rest of the coaching staff:
“I am still looking at everything to be very honest with you. I am not done [evaluating]. This is a thorough evaluation of our staff. I am going to do this brick by brick in how we have to do this and put this thing together. Everybody kind of knows where they are and where I am. If you are asking will there be more changes as we move forward, yeah, there could potentially be more changes. There could be more changes because guys have better opportunities. There could be more changes because I think something is going to improve us and make us better. When I set out to take this job, I told you my expectation was I was going to win here, and I am going to win here. In order to do that, we have to and I have to make some tough decisions as we move forward as to what is best for our football team. It is not personal. This is the business side of it. It is a hard side of it, and I get that. I have been through it before as an assistant coach and as a head coach so I know what that is like, but at the same time, I think all of us within this profession get it because at the end of the day, this is truly about winning. It is not about anything else. It is about winning. It is what it is going to take for us to become the type of organization that we want to be. To me, you have to have vision, you have to have support when you get ready to make decisions and then you have to execute the decisions you have decided to make. I do get it. Those decisions need to come out right. I do get that. I want you guys to all know that. These decisions need to come out right. Those are the decisions and the chances you have to take in this profession.”
On if he will continue to call the Browns’ offensive plays, even if staff changes are made:
“Yes, I will. I don’t know why I would not. Until I get this organization where I need it to be, I need to continue to do what I think I have done in the past to play winning football. Obviously, we didn’t do it as well this past year. Trust me, I have looked at myself, too. Hue Jackson has to get better as well as anybody has to get better. I don’t run from that. I am not taking it off my head. I get how all of this works. I have been through these things before, and I know what we have to get done. I can see it. I just have to go make it happen.”
Hats off to Hue. I am sure that was not an easy firing. The fact that he has the spine and the balls to fire his buddy is already far more than Pettine ever showed the organization.
If he was looking hard at himself wouldn't he fire himself for calling that garbage at the 2 yard line of Pitt?
I can't believe you actually said that Tulsa. With the history our team has had with fluke plays, losses, Charlie Brown moments, and incidents that defy all statistical probability... and now to suggest a Browns coach would fire himself?
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things." -Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
To a degree I think he's letting his ego overload his ass. I'd like to see a full time OC, not some half-baked OC gofer job while Hue continues with too many responsibilities. Dude needs to either be an HC or an OC but both didn't do well for us last year and if he's looking at everything, how is the world is he missing that?
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