DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Ray Horton out as Defensive Coordinator

like a player needs someone to say go head hunt that player who is killing us. The flow and emotion of the game does that all on its own if the players have any passion for the game. Don't get me wrong I don't like dirty players but hitting as hard as your allowed to and where your allowed to is all part of the game to me.

IMO, there's continuity and then there's 'continuity.'

My biggest beef has always been when the entire infrastructure gets dumped every 1-3 years. I have less of an issue if some moving parts are replaced.

This isn't me defending the FO Haslam or anyone else. This is me feeling relieved that we aren't doing yet another HC search/FO purge. I'm actually willing to see what comes of this.

The Browns offensive coordinator is safe but improvement is needed there, too -- Bud Shaw

http://www.cleveland.com/budshaw/index.s...art_river_index

CLEVELAND, Ohio - We probably could've guessed that continuity in Berea wasn't going to go from "non-existent" to "steadfast" overnight, especially not during one miserable season.

So what we have with the firing of Ray Horton and hiring of Gregg Williams as defensive coordinator after one season under head coach Hue Jackson is still a state of change.

It's just not one as big as we're accustomed to seeing.

But, wait, there could be more.

"There could be changes because guys have better opportunities," Hue Jackson told reporters in a Sunday conference call. "There could be more changes because I think something is going to make us better. I'm going to win here and, in order to do that have to make some tough decisions."


In Horton's second time around in Cleveland, it was difficult to say what the Browns defense did best.

We just know its strength wasn't covering the tight end. Or covering anybody else particularly well for that matter.

Stopping the run and getting to the quarterback weren't staples either.

And even if some of those issues on defense could clearly be attributed to injuries and youth, some problems that surfaced were reminiscent of the collapses we saw in Horton's first time around with head coach Rob Chudzinski.

It's hard to argue on Horton's behalf. So we won't.

All we'll say is the other side of the ball was 1-15, too.

And that as job security goes, it was a lot better to be Browns offensive coordinator than defensive coordinator in 2016.

Jackson will call plays again in 2017 while there is so still so much else to do as Browns head coach.

In acknowledgment of the scrutiny he'll face, Jackson said Sunday "the finger is pointed at me."

That's also hard to argue.

Just wait to next year, brother.

I posted this elsewhere, but Hue needs to give up play calling and just focus on being a coach. He has been in the league long enough to have a connection with someone that knows his offense well and can run it the way he wants. Have input, but hand over the play calling. It seems like common sense to me?

No offense, but I disagree. Play calling is supposedly one of Hue's strength.

I go back to the same argument I used to defend Horton. It's about talent. Hue was highly regarded w/the Bengals. Did he just forget how to call plays in one year? LOL....

I get that he is a great play caller, but as a Head Coach, shouldn't you be more focused on everything else going on around you?

Can he truly evaluate players and other aspects of the team if he is focused on running the offense? I don't know Vers. As a Manger, it would be difficult for me to motivate my team and inspect what I expect out of my other leaders if I was focused on running just one aspect of my company. I feel like there would be a lack of accountability other than just looking at results. Does that make sense?

Yes, it makes sense. I get what you are saying.

However, I just think that it would be hard to turn over something so important to a guy you know isn't as good as you at that particular function.

I am not saying I'm right, bro. Just my opinion.

Since Hue loves play calling so much, maybe he should hire his replacement and demote himself to Offensive Coordinator.

I was thinking something similar but a little different.
In baseball, most teams have a bench coach.
A guy who puts suggestions in the managers ear.
Want to warm up the bullpen? Want to hit and run etc

Why can't Hue do the same thing?
A guy to suggest a timeout, or remind him that there's a minute ten in the half and we have the ball at our own 10.
Maybe we should run out the clock rather than trying to pass and end up giving up point right before the half.
Or remind him that Crowell is averaging 6+ yards per carry when we have the ball at the 2 in OT...

We probably already have somebody who does that.

Well it was time to replace him. As the team needs to do better!

Just a couple thoughts on what I have read over the past 3 pages...

First and foremost I personally believe, the point on them depleting his roster and not giving him the tools to succeed..This was far from the depleting the offense took.

What exactly did Horton lose? They rid that side of the ball of aging football players. I "might" make an exception for Paul Kruger. Karlos Dansby was a 35 year old backer that had only experience on his side. He has been losing steps every year and like the 31 year old Whitner, would have only taken snaps from the young guys this season. Can you honestly say that they would have been upgrades to Kirksey. You might be able to argue that Whitner would, at 31, still been an upgrade at safety, but would the small margin be enough to argue against the experience the young guys got at the position? I believe this team needed to know what they have in the young guys, and at the same time, I don't believe Whintner would have helped this defense in any way to be a better unit based on the schemes being implemented.

Now, Kruger is an arguable factor...except for the fact he immediately found another job and we all found out what we knew after watching him...he had one anomaly of a year and cashed in on it...I would say our rookies played better than Kruger in 2016...Ogbah is the real deal, and we may not have found that out had Kruger been here, it would have just stunted his growth.

Horton was NOT crippled by the moves made in the offseason..no where near how the offense was crippled when this front office allowed Mitchell Schwartz to be gifted to the Chiefs and in a smaller way, Alex Mack. Mack was a larger impact, but the front office had little say in Mack leaving, he had that decision and his mind was made up fairly early. Schwartz came back and accepted the offer that was on the table...they screwed the pooch on that one and inevitably through a grenade on this offenses chance to be successful. They need to make up for that insanity this offseason and fix their mistake.


Second, if the reports are true, the decision was not made before final exit interviews were made. It sure seems like they had a plan in place for Horton to save his job and he wouldn't tell them what they wanted to hear. After that interview, it seems, is when Williams and Philips were contacted due to the circumstances rising out of that exit interview. We may never know what those circumstances were, but it seems it played a big part and we the fans are going to reap the rewards for his mistake.

I personally believe Williams, based on both men's history, is the better defensive mind. This team has more pieces for his defense, than Horton's..We need a lot more pieces for it to be successful, but the ones that are here are built better for the 4-3 base, and most are hybrids that can be used in different fronts and looks. I'm excited to see what this develops into.

Nice post.

Your post is not accurate.

In all fairness I don't think you mentioned Tashaun Gipson.

He (or Mack) I'd say were arguably our biggest losses for the season. Schwartz because he was younger than Mack, but we were really missing Mack as Center. Before Bitonio got hurt, it always seemed like Irving would miss a block and our QBs would get crushed up the middle.


But yeah, losing Gipson hurt. He was one of the guys I wanted to keep too. Still young (although a few too many injuries), but he was a good player for us. And he had a great year with Horton.


Maybe Vers is talking about Whitner, but we disagree there. IMO Whitner played one decent year for us in 2014, and he was worse than Ward who Broncos signed for less. Donte had to go, 2015, he sucked. But Ibraheim Campbell was the guy I thought would step up big-time, and he just dissapointed me bigtime. And Poyer is a backup as well.

So losing Gipson and not signing a legitimate replacement for Whitner really hurt us

That's probably the most reasonable post in the thread.

I wonder if Horton would still be here if Fisher never got canned?

If we find a better player, we pick him up. Why so much drama over picking up a "better" coach?

Williams vs Horton goes waaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond the man or this notion that Hue needed a scapegoat.

I look at this as the first 'tweak' in the plan.

Agreed. People sometimes seem to be reaching so much to explain things.

Either A) Hue realized that Horton was a mistake or B) Hue viewed Williams as enough of an upgrade over Horton that it was worth the sacrafice in continuity. (And Hue gets a D-Coordinator that maybe he wanted whom wasn't available last year)

LOL...........I'll agree w/that part. Just not in the way you intended.

I'm not getting the scapegoat thing. It doesn't have that feel. I don't recall hearing anything from Haslam or the FO that would lead me to speculate they forced him to fire Horton. It appears to me that the guy with the most power in this structure is Hue by far. I can't see them forcing him to do anything. Hue is a staunch supporter of this structure because he has that power. He's calling the shots.

I think this is simply a case that it didn't work out and Hue felt it best to make a change now rather than wait. Who knows, maybe he and Horton didn't get along. Maybe Horton was insubordinate. Could be hundreds of things that went into this.

I'm not getting the "he had to go" thing.

The entire team sucked.

Yep.

Horton was NOT a scapegoat. A scapegoat wasn't necessary in this instance as Hue was in ZERO danger of getting canned.

This is a change in experience, reputation and philosophy of a DC. Nothing more...nothing less.

Hue wanted a different guy in there...therefore...Horton had to go. It happens.

Maybe LaCanfaker will come out with some 'insider' knowledge that Haslam forced Hue to fire Horton and also to completely change defensive philosophies...wouldn't that be like salve on some wounds?

I agree. Haslam said the structure would remain in place. He was clearly talking about the "chiefs". Ray picks his staff. I don't think anyone pressured him in to canning Horton.

I read somewhere there was a shouting match between Hue and Ray.If so, they obviously disagreed on something. In the end I think it was Rays unwillingness, or being unable to make some changes to the D.

No matter the reason, I am glad we made the switch. We just became a better football team.

The spin is in. It will be repeated over and over and over and it will become a "fact" on this board.

I agree Mac. Continuity is more about the head coach and less about asst. coaches. I don't think we will miss a beat in making this switch.

Even if it was a bogus report, which it could have been....as you say, I wasn't in the room. I probably wasn't closer that 573 miles...the distance from by house to the I-71, Bagley Rd exit in Berea. Even if it was bogus, it still doesn't change anything. Ray has struggled in all of his stops.

My guess is the team is focused on Garrett. Ray isn't a 4-3 coach and the team didn't want to screw around trying to play Garrett as a OLB. We did that with Ogbagh and it screwed him up. Shortly after we put him at end, the guy starterd to play the way we hoped.

Wrong coach, wrong team. I also read a nice piece that Hue was hired late, making it harder for him to put together a staff. The jest was he opted for a experienced DC over a unproven DC, even though it may not have been a good match.

Jackson was hired January 13th. That is pretty early.

Never saw that but in all honesty, why didn't you just show that instead of telling people to do research. Geez man.

Also, who told him to stop? that's not covered. Do you know that?

Ok.....maybe it is. It still doesn't mitigate the fact there may not have been much to pick from.

Either way, it doesn't matter. Hue got rid of Ray to do what he felt was going to be best for the team. If you and others feel differently, spell it out.

Vers. Andrew Hawkins was just on NFL Network. He had a message for YOU.

When asked what he would say to Browns Fans today his response was "Step Away from the Ledge". Lol.

He also said we as fans don't see it. But behind the scenes we're heading in the right direction.

Vers. Andrew Hawkins was just on NFL Network. He had a message for YOU.

When asked what he would say to Browns Fans today his response was "Step Away from the Ledge". Lol.

He also said we as fans don't see it. But behind the

Step away from the ledge! LOL That's a good one..

I hope he's right...

eh.... same old browns... think your going to install a defense in one year with nothing but rookies and subpar talent...

Like most people logically assumed.

Well, for one thing these "rookies" will have a year of experience not to mention we still have FA to go through. It's not like things don't change and always stay the same.