DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Jimmy Garoppolo trade to the Browns...rumor

Interesting take, 'peen...

peen, I agree w/you that you have been saying the NFL needs to change for a long time.

However, I still disagree w/you that they need to change. The NFL guys are not stupid. They are not antiquated, as you have mentioned in earlier posts. They are not adverse to being flexible. In fact, they have implemented parts of the spread into their offenses.

There is a reason why they will never change. It won't work in the NFL. Defenses are too fast. Schemes too sophisticated. Spread offenses are exploited due to the limited number of reads. Players are hurt. OLs are exposed. They absolutely stink in the red zone.

People always seem to forget that NFL defenses catch-up to new offenses and that the best way to beat NFL defenses is currently being used. Well..........that, and a lot of rule changes that favor the offense. LOL

Look, I am not saying that colleges should change their offenses. They don't owe the NFL anything, but the NFL isn't going to change what works for something that doesn't. Meaning, it's going to be hard for NFL people to evaluate collegiate qbs.

Just our luck, huh. Damn it.

I LOVE Trubisky. This dude just looks like a NATURAL. Damn that experience.

That last drive was a showcase of NFL caliber throws.

He's a COOL Kat in the pocket. Game on the line.

We need to put him through the wringer and if we deem him Franchise Caliber. TAKE Him.

I think the dude is gonna be Brady Like in 2 or 3 years.

You heard me right.

If it takes the 1st pick, so be it.

Get Barnett or Adams or Hooker or McDowell with the Philly pick.

You might be right.

In some ways I hope we win tomorrow and SF loses and we pick #2. Ithink that takes some pressure off and opens up more possibilities.

Balpeen, that is an interesting thought, but you can have any player you want at No. 1. Yes, you have to choose. Are you thinking that at No. 2, the choice between Garrett and Trubisky makes itself?

I don't think that this team can take Trubisky.

He is going to need some time to develop and everybody is going to be calling for him to start in week 2.

The Cleveland Browns are not allowed to have nice shiny things like QB's and such. We always break them.

While I don't think Kessler is the answer - and I definately don't think RG3 is the answer - I was impressed with what Kessler did on a bad team behind a Center who was really awful in some games. Erving got a little credit for improved performances at the end of the season, but that was after Kessler's second concussion. . . . . not going to deny he doesn't yet have a true NFL arm - but I wouldn't give up all hope on that even if I don't expect it to miraculously get Rogers or Flaco like ... But I'd be willing to roll with Kessler for 8-16 games while Trubisky sat assuming we can keep Kessler (or another starting QB) healthy next year.


So the permutation becomes - - and it's all wild speculation - -

Would you rather plan to have Garret + a top CB or S.
Would you rather plan to have have Garret + Jimmy G (and potentially another lost draft pick).
Would you rather see Garret + whichever QB is there at 10, maybe Kizer, Watson or no-one.

...... Or would you rather take your #1 QB (Trubisky for me) and then a top CB or S. For me this scenario does the least to fix the team.

Garret and a top secondary pick really goes halfway or more (with Collins signed) to having a potentially very good defense.

Garret and Jimmy G helps fix both sides of the ball a little - Jimmy comes in more NFL ready than Kessler or a Rookie to help the Offense but we have huge needs at CB, SS and FS and less chance of getting a true impact player at any one of those slots.

Garret and 'whichever QB is left' probably means that we end up without a QB as I really think Watson, Kizer and Trub will all be gone before the Eagles pick that we have.....

I don't even want to roll with Kessler at a craps table.

It doesn't make itself by any means. I do think it makes it simpler, especially if Trubisky is the target....I am not sure he is.

I think #2 is a good spot. I think you can trade down a very few sloys, making a selection of Trubisky more realistic.



But maybe I am over thinking things. I like either Garrett or Allen. I am good with Either. I don't think I will be happy if we take Trubisky with the first pick.

If I'm a GM in the NFL, I simply don't do business with BB. He'll always end up getting one over on you.

Always?

Chandler Jones?

There are other examples of Belichick being wrong, but they are mostly bad low-risk signings. He is, obviously, very good.

If you refuse to play the game with the guy that always wins, he is still the guys that always wins. You have to beat him to change things.

Jimmy G is the real deal. Tom is just Tom and goign super human so he can make himself the GOAT. Bill is happy to oblige Tom. Jimmy is just in the same situation aaron rodgers was due to Favre playing forever. I just don't think Bill would give up on Tom because unlike Favre, Tom KNOWS he doesn't want to retire yet.

Unless the Pats offer up big money for a back-up, they are going to have to trade JG.

So the question we face is what is JG worth? It's hard to put a value on this....I think I would go in by swapping our 2nd this year (33), with their 2nd (64). To me that is a a lot to give. If it had to be more, maybe some sort of contitional next year....say 4th or 5th round, depending on some agreeable benchmarks.

Swapping to 64 would give us trade up options with the 64 and 65 pick if we decided to look that way. That could probably get us back in to the top 3rd of the 2nd round round.

I don't believe they would even think about accepting such an offer.

That statement will be true in 2018 but not in 2017. With roughly only a 1 mill contracted salary in 2017 for JG, the Pats still own all the cards and it's going to cost to sit at the trade table with them.

Swapping 2nds would be a no-brainer imo. As wary as I might be - that represents very low risk.

There are other QB needy teams as well - 49ers, Jets, Bears - so there is a market there and I expect to be higher when it's all said and done. I'd be okay with giving the second of our 2nd round picks (#49?) ... and even a conditional 4th or 5th based on playing time or metrics.

Based on last night's championship game I think Watson did himself a lot of good after getting cloth-lined early and obviously shaken up. I expect he and Trub will be gone before our #12 pick. And frankly I'd rather have JG and use that #12 on a top defensive talent, Hooker, Adams, Foster if available ... followed by top CB if not.

Watson at one looks better this morning than yesterday morning. Grab D after him, trade back up, trade, whatever. That was a GAME last night, and he impressed me.

How much value does Trubisky have since declaring?

Maybe not. I said it was hard to place a value on such a move.

What are your thoughts? You have been high on JG for a while. I like the idea of getting him rather than another rookie QB.

What about our 2nd this year and one of our two 2nd's next year?

I'd feel better about that before sending #12 to NE. I really want that #12 pick, but I'd like Garrett more than Trubisky (And Trubisky is my #1 QB) & I'm hoping for Jamaal Adams to fall to #12. That or the Reuben Foster.

I think Adams and Foster are more likely to fall than Hooker, IMO.

Whatever amount of 2nds is the equivalent to #12. That's what I've been thinking. Is that realistic?

That's got to look like a lottery win to Belichek!

How you value picks is up to the person holding them and receiving them.

We have two 2nds this year and two 2nds next year.

I like some of the defenders in the top half of the draft, and with all three QBs prob getting selected in that first 12, that helps push some of these defenders down.


So yeah, I'd def value our 12 (this year) over our first 2nd this year and a 2nd next year. Especially since we have two 2nds in both drafts. Only so many guys can make a football roster and only so many can dress.

j/c

I've seen some scenarios that I find quite unlikely. I believe that Jimmy G. will require a first round investment to acquire. My reasoning I believe to be quite logical.

I believe the overall consensus to be that all the QB's in this draft are questionable with Trubisky and Watson being the front runners. Many believe they would be a big risk very early in this draft.

It is obvious how many teams are QB needy in this draft. Now whether we agree or not, a lot of teams are more comfortable with seeing a QB play in the NFL than in the NCAA. While Jimmy G. has very little NFL experience, what we have seen of him has looked pretty good. I would say most of the QB needy teams would be more willing to try to acquire Jimmy G. than to take a risk on one of the QB's coming out in this draft.

The precedent has been set on what the price is on this type of transaction will cost. Not to mention the teams that could most likely be entering into the Jimmy G. Sweepstakes. IMO there will be competition for his services and N.E. will end up the winners by getting a first round pick for him. We won't be the only team to be competing for Jimmy G.

I also believe that it's a fair statement that when a QB's talent begins to fall off, they fall off fast. While it's true that Brady is playing at a high level, once he starts to lose it, it will happen rapidly. I don't believe that N.E. would let Jimmy G. go for less than a first for this very reason.

Solid points Pit.

I counter with these.

You say 1st rounder. Who of the QB needy teams would drop their #1 pick for Garoppolo?

Bellicheck has a big decision to make and it's got everything to do with Brady and Bills future tenure in the NFL.

How old is he? How long is he gonna Coach before he sets sail in that boat with Saban? How long is Brady signed for?

I don't think Bellicheck gives a rats ass what he leaves behind for Kraft. He's got a 3 year MAX window with Brady. Garoppolo is a fa after this year. Brisett is there.

Can NE afford to keep Garoppolo this year with Brady making massive bucks, only to lose him for no compensation when his contract expires next year? He'll garnish the 18M Osweiler did this year. That's approaching 40M for 2 QBs in NE.

Now I'm losing the thought process. I'll continue after I proof read. Lol.

OK. Proof read done.

One thing I will say about my desire for Garoppolo is this. Even though I love Trubisky. Everyone always wants to say you need to SIT a rookie QB. He ain't ready.

We'll Garoppolo HAS sit. And behind an outstanding QB. He's READY IMO. Much like Rogers did in Green Bay.

BUT. The teams that need QBs are drafting extremely high in this draft. Do you give that much for a QB with 2 Starts? Regardless how long he's sat?

I say HELL NO. It won't take a high 1st. Packages of a HIGH 2 and something else will get it done .

This all IMHO versus the arrogant opinions of my brother in law.

I could live with one of our second rounders and a future conditional ((5th?) pick. NE has nobody over a barrel as they face the dilemma as you mentioned above, about the dollars committed to the QB position...

What about NE getting relief to keep JG by re-structuring? Do they have enough flex for that? The chance to get serious talent, especially not a QB with our first, gets me interested in what choices open up for us. BB will bend somebody over if he can, but part of the leverage might come from an unexpected move to make him a keeper or seem to be.

Can one tag a backup? I expect some extortion if other folks compete with us; we just seem a bigger target with more cap. I can live with a later pick if some QBs drop. Not entirely sold on Kessler; decide what you will about RG3. I don't think he can play most of a season. It is worth picks and money to get off "project" merry go round. Prefer some impact with a few FAs who make us viable in 2017.

The other guy I was thinking of was Hasselback too


And then there's Matt Flynn......... which is the other side of the coin.


I'm beginning to like the idea of Jimmy G and trading our (or the Eagles') 2nd this year (and a 2nd next year (or a third next year))


Frees up our 1st rounders to be used on Defensive players

I heard NFL.com's Bucky Brooks on the radio today saying that when its all said and done, NFL teams will regard Deshon Kizer as the best pro prospect in this years draft, because of his size, skill set, and the fact that he has started 24 games (as opposed to Trubisky's 14). Personally, I'm dubious, but I only saw him vs Stanford, and he had a brutal game, so I could be wrong. But if Kizer is the best prospect (and I do respect Brooks), then we need to look elsewhere with our two 1st round picks IMO. We need to look Defense with #1 and #12 - again, JMO.

Dammit, forgot my main point - get Jimmy with the second 2nd round pick this year and a 2nd next year. Belichick loves Brissett from what I've read, Jimmy could be available for less than we think, especially since he's a FA after 2017. I also think he's got a great future.

This is to you and Petey.

I am not really good at qualifying how much a guy is worth. I mean, obvious things stick out to me, like the exchanging of the second round picks or if someone said give up the first overall, but I really don't have an expert feel for trade value.

I am not trying to dodge the questions, but I will say this..........I think Jimmy G is better than any qb in this draft. He is almost assuredly more ready to step right in and become a day one starter than any of the qbs in the draft and I think he is more polished, poised, and safer than any of those guys.

So...........where would you be willing to draft your favorite qb in this year's draft? I would say Jimmy G is worth that pick and probably more.

I better add this...........QB is the hardest position to evaluate anymore due to the vast differences in sophistication between college offenses vs pro offenses.

One of these college guys could end up being great. I am not saying they suck.

That was an issue last year when we were evaluating Goff, Wentz, and Lynch. I didn't think any of them sucked, I just thought they were too risky to draft w/the second overall pick. I didn't have any of them in my top 5 players. I was thinking 15 +. Now, as it turns out...........it seems that Wentz does indeed have the goods.

One of this year's qbs could, too. I don't know.

I'm just offering up my opinions. Not saying they are right. Which is a very different mindset than the one I have about constantly changing coaches and FO personnel every damn year. I KNOW I am right on that one. LOL

No doubt about it. It's even harder when there isn't a consensus can't miss QB prospect. Drafts like these seem to yield one QB that's "the guy" along with a bunch of duds, but there's no telling who is what until after you pick... it could go any way. One example off the top of my head was the Manziel draft. JF flamed out, Bridgewater has been meh, and Carr is a stud (wasn't there a 4th major QB in that draft?).

Bortles.

But, I kinda disagree w/you about that draft. That was a good QB draft.

Bortles, Teddy, Carr, Manziel, and Jimmy G were all good prospects in my opinion.

I think every single one of them had more talent than this year's group of qbs.

A lot of people hate on Bortels, but he came from nowhere. Kinda like Trubinsky. Heck, and I think steve will beack this up, I was pimping him before the media was. I was hoping for 3rd round when I first saw him. He ended up being the first qb chosen. Most should have known that he should have sat for 2-3 years. I think thrusting him into the starting lineup day one was a mistake. I still think he will develop.

Teddy wins. Minni had one of the top picks in the draft before he got there. I think they won 4 games. He won 6 as a rookie, even though he did not start game one. He won 11 his second year. He outplayed Russell Wilson in the playoff game, only to have a FG kicker miss a 27 yarder. He was said to have made huge strides this preseason, but he got hurt. Btw.............Minni won something like 6 games this year. There is a common denominator there.

Manziel can play qb. He is just an idiot w/a substance abuse problem. He is similar to Gordon. Great talent. Dumb as hell and selfish. Losers. I get why some of us liked Manziel, but how the hell didn't Farmer and his staff not dig deeper into Manziel's personal history? He had the resources, unlike bozos like me.

Carr has turned out to be a very good qb. He has the second best OL in football and the Raiders got him weapons. I was wrong about him because while I liked his arm, accuracy, and mechanics, I thought he was a puss in the pocket. That was a bad evaluation on my part. While he doesn't get pressured as much as other qbs, he has proved to be willing to stand in the pocket.

Jimmy G was part of that class. He came from a small school. I loved everything about him except for that and I thought he trusted his arm too much. He would force the ball into tight windows and I thought that might lead to picks in the NFL because guys are so much faster, especially compared to the competition he faced. However, he is so smart. Mobile. Good arm. Nice mechanics. Accurate. He has a lot of things I personally look for in a qb. I do wish he was taller, though.

Hey 888...............is this a good football post?

I agree. It is hard to evauate QB's.


Kind of like projecting DE's in college to OLB's in the pro's. You don't have a friggen clue until you try it.

I think Kizer is the top QB as well.

Mitch isn't far behind, but lacks experience.

DW is looking more and more like a 2nd rounder to me.

I think that two 2nd rounders is still too high for Jimmy.

I don't agree. If the FO believes a good QB can be had for two 2nd round picks, pull the trigger, especially if they're in different years. We're talking maybe a franchise QB and we need one so bad.

If Hue does then yes.

I don't think that Jimmy G is that guy though.

You could be right. Who knows for sure?