DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Jimmy G. trade to the Browns Part 2

Brady is also suspension prone too.

I think Bill is kinder in trades to Cleveland that other teams just because he loved the browns under paul brown as he learned football. We have gotten some fair deals with them whereas he normally totally fleeces everyone else ^^

Either way Jimmy G. is our best chance at landing a Franchise QB barring Trub sliding to 12 and even then I would rather have jimmy G then Trub.

It is if you have an agenda

j/c:

A few things I wanted to point out:

--Jimmy G is not "injury prone." He has had one injury. As far as I can tell, he didn't miss games in his college career due to injury.

--Jimmy G is not a FA right now. If he was, we would be discussing how much it will cost to obtain him. The talk of Osweiller's contract is an attempt by Pluto and a couple of posters to sour people on Jimmy G. I say this, because at some point, ALL QBs are going to be paid if they show promise.

--Jimmy G is NOT built like RGIII.

--Saying Jimmy G won't be good because he plays for NE is not even worthy of consideration.

--The "report" that NE likes Brisset better than Jimmy G came from a poster on this board, not a real journalist.

--The claim that NE doesn't like Jimmy G and wants to trade him is not accurate. As a few of us have explained several times, Jimmy G will be a FA after next year. He will be a hot commodity. Brady has said he is going to play for several more years. Rather than losing Jimmy G to FA, the Pats might want to get something for him while they can.

--Trying to change the thread into a "dumb nickname" thread must be "good for the board."

--Look, I can understand if people don't think Jimmy G is a good qb and that is why they don't want to trade for him. I think a lot of those people never studied him, but it is what it is. But, the other stuff that I just listed, is pretty much nonsensical.

--I think the Browns have a unique opportunity to land a franchise qb [Jimmy G] and a premier edge rusher [Garret] this off-season. Those are two most important positions on a football field. I am excited about the opportunity and hope the Browns can pull it off.

A few points.

There is precedence of trades between the Browns and Patriots in just the past year--the Mingo trade and the Jamie Collins trade. So I think there is something there between the two organizations where things are amicable at a minimum. And, both deals didn't seem overwhelmingly favored towards one side. If the Browns like Jimmy, I think there is a reasonable chance at getting him. The draft assets are there as well as the money.

But I think two serious competitors would be whatever team McDaniels goes to and possibly Houston. McDaniels for obvious reasons due to the ties to Belichek but Houston could be a dark horse. Osweiler is becoming a huge dud after signing that contract. However, after 2017, and most of his guaranteed money being paid out, he'll only cost Houston a cap hit of $6M if they cut him. Conceivably, Houston w/ Belichek ties to O'Brien could make a deal for him, bench Osweiler, and hand the ball off to Jimmy and go from there.

The argument I don't understand is that of him not being a FA this year shouldn't play into the cost to acquire him. Of course it does! With people speculating about the cost to obtain him, what value would the Browns get for giving up a 2nd rounder + more (most likely) for a one year rental? This is a very similar situation to Jamie Collins IMO but Collins has proven to be worth not only a huge extension but also warrants a franchise tag if something doesn't get reached. Plus Cleveland gets some sort of compensation if he doesn't sign. There are so many cushions for Cleveland to fall back on with the Collins deal and he has done more in this league. Thus, whatever trade a team does for JG has to take such risks into play and future contract possibility, if not an outright one upon getting him.

If a trade for him would occur, I like to have the ability to extend him, which may be an issue.

I think that is a good post, but who is saying this:

I think there is a general tone by some posters re: my comment. I believe someone even said that if we lose JG after next year, he 'only' costs us a second rounder. I don't agree with that approach. If we are talking about giving up significant assets to acquire JG, the future cost/ability to keep him is relatively important and should not be thrown aside simply because we have enough assets to get him.

I'll also add something about your post that I didn't reference. The Terry Pluto comment....I didn't take it as a attempt to sour fans on JG. It's a fair and legitimate concern, yet, something that can play into the Browns favor because of the recency bias. Getting a QB with a limited amount of snaps and signing him to a huge contract failed for Houston. It could work to our advantage. It could allow us to sign Jimmy for far less money or at least structure something more based on incentives with a decent amount of guaranteed money. Personally, I wouldn't want to give JG a contract extension like the one Osweiler got. And if we trade for him, based on the speculative trade price on here and don't sign him if he performs well, is a huge risk for the Browns to take at this point in time.

I'm all for Cleveland trading for him if they think he's the guy. I'm also all for them taking a QB with the #1 pick for the very same reason.

This is incorrect, he was injured by Linebacker Kiko Alonzo.

Okay. I thought you might have meant that is what I was saying about the contract because I can see how it might come across that way.

I just wanted to point out that we would have to trade for him rather than outbid for him on the free agent market and that we could work out how much to pay him later. That's tricky and definitely a risk.

I do want to emphasize that my main point in all of that is that if a guy shows promise, he's going to get paid. And I don't know if it is fair to just say about Jimmy G and no one else.

I have confidence in this FO in regards to their intelligence. If they really like him as a player, I think they are smart enough to figure out a way to keep Jimmy here.

I am less confident in their player evaluation part, but that's for another discussion.

I still love that the team is in a unique position to get a franchise qb and a dominant edge rusher. That isn't to say they are locks, but I like both as prospects.

And if they can manage to do that, it sure puts the plan that the FO initiated last year in general terms and the trade they made out of number 2 more specifically, look pretty damn smart!

Per ESPN.

McDaniels to STAY with New England.

Must be because Frisco has no QB and he's not interested in Garoppolo. Lol

If I were a potential HC, I would not want to go to SF, Cleveland, or to the Rams.

Especially SF and Cleveland. Both places are coach killers at this point in time.

I think Garoppolo is intriguing, but I don't think he has proven a whole lot yet. He's got some good things going for him, but I still have some concerns. I'd like to have him, but the investment that would be required (both draft capital and guaranteed money) makes me somewhat hesitant.

I worry some about batted balls due to his smaller stature and delivery (somewhat low release point-more pronounced in college), his ball security, and I'd have liked to see him play more in bad weather.

I went back to his college tape and picked the Towson tape first since it was the only school listed that I remember having some NFL prospects. He seemed to struggle some in the cold. He lost the ball untouched when attempting a pass and his accuracy left something to be desired in this particular game at least.

He has 2 fumbles in his 2 Pro starts and had 15 fumbles in college.

He does have the quick release and seems to make quick decisions. I've read, though, that a lot of those reads were determined pre-snap by formation and defensive alignment. It seems that New England used the hurry up fairly often when Jimmy was in, which somewhat makes me wonder who was making the read (headset cuts off at 15) That isn't definitive, but it worries me a bit.

I'm not sure Jimmy would be as effective here with Hue. He could be, but I'm not sure that Jimmy should get all the credit for his performance. McDaniels called good games for him, and Brissett was also effective as a late round rookie. It could take some time for all the pieces to come together here, and Browns fans are notoriously fickle when it comes to QBs.

I worry that we'll sign him to a big deal and give up multiple choice picks only to find out that he's basically a slightly better version of Cody Kessler who is further along in his development, who might regress when changing systems. Here's a story about his rookie season struggles which sounds a lot like Kessler to me:

http://www.nepatriotslife.com/2014/07/jimmy-garoppolo-is-struggling-at.html

If we bet big on him and he struggles, I could see Haslam blowing up the FO and coaching staff again. The cycle of misery would continue.

My battered Browns fan syndrome is active today.

I'm kind of leaning the more developmental route because I'm not sure the team is ready for greatly heightened expectations. We've still got a bunch of young players and are likely to bring in more. I do worry that the "developmental" QBs are going to be thought of as potential franchise QBs and get picked earlier and rushed on the field sooner than they should be.

I kind of wish Free Agency opened after the draft, so we could see how it played out before needing to make a deal (I worry about SF looking hard and perhaps jumping early. I think he'd be a better fit in a warm weather city). I'm not a big Glennon fan, but maybe he'd be a FA option. I ended up on a top FA page while tracking down the date Free agency opened. I might have to look at him some more. Not particularly looking forward to it.

Nice post GrimmBrown!

Some of the reason he had fumbles at IL is that he had a horrible O-line there and got hit a lot from his blindside. He never got hurt while taking that beating either which is why I find it laughable to think he might be injury prone. Players get hurt all the time and size seldom effects it.

Jimmy G. has been making the reads himself. He has always enjoyed defense since he started out as a LB. That is not your usual starting spot for a future QB. He switched during his senior year at HS. Its the main reason he was not highly recruited coming out of HS. Still it's one of the reasons he actively reads defenses and studies them so much.

Still lets say your fear about Josh McD is correct and he had full control of Jimmy G. and he only did what he was told to do. In worst case scenario it shows he can execute what he is told to do. I tend to think Hue would find that a big upgrade over our current QB's who have shown they CAN'T execute well the plays he calls.

Before Jimmy G was drafted I had evaluated him that he was not ready to step in and be a starter right away. That article just confirms what I thought would happen with him. Still Jimmy G. looked great in actual game time beyond his rookie preseason games. IMHO he has show he has what it takes and progressed exactly how I predicted he would.

The cost is a valid concern. I certainly get it. Still we don't have to give up anything we wouldn't already have to get up to draft a QB. Yes, we would have to pay him more than a rookie but then he is not a rookie anymore so that would only be normal. When you look at his skill set he has everything you could ever want in a good QB. I don't think he is a Tom Brady/Peyton Manning but you're not going to find one of those very often. Certainly no one in this years FA, on this team, or coming out in the draft. Still he will be a HUGE improvement over anything we have had since 1999 and that is worth whatever we have to pay him.

Jimmy G. is the best QB prospect we have seen in a very long time that we actually have a chance to land. I don't think we would have a problem resigning him to a long term contract either.

j/c

I keep asking myself where I would rank JG if he were coming out in this draft...based solely on what I thought of him when he WAS coming into the draft. I liked him back then. Today, I'd rank him at #1 in THIS class.

IF Trub/Kizer/Watson were available at #12...and I wanted a QB and was willing to use #12 on one...I would gladly trade that #12 for JG. Same goes for #33 and #50 (or is it 51?)

I'd prefer to trade #50 and another pick for him...but I'd do it in a second. He's going to get a very nice, big contract...but unlikely Osweiller $$$ (stupid) out of the gate.

I'm not the first to say this as Vers has said it many times before...Garrett (edge) and JG (FQB?) in this draft would be a dream come true.

j/c:

A couple of things I want to address.

Jimmy G's fumbles and size were brought up. Trub has over 15 fumbles and Watson has thrown a ton of picks.

All three are of similar height and Jimmy G is the heaviest of the three.

It was brought up that Haslam will blow things up if the trade fails. How does anyone know that? I could say that Haslam will blow things up if the Browns draft a QB in the first round and the guy ends up sucking. Either way, it's not a reason to prefer one guy over another.

The difference between Jimmy G and the college guys is that Jimmy reads defenses and coverages better. He gets rid of the ball quicker. He is more accurate. He is a safer choice because even though people keep saying the book on him is small, the book on the other two is even smaller.

I think all of these little nitpicking things are bogus. I think it comes down to who you prefer as a better qb.

Personally, I think Jimmy G is a much better prospect than any qb in the draft. Not asking anyone to agree w/that take.

If he doesn't meet their standards, they won't try to acquire him.

I am glad we are getting all this Garoppolo talk out of the way so we won't have to discuss it later in the off-season. . .

This is an interesting point. One could argue that the Patriots shouldn't be drafting any QBs that high because they need to put as many good players around Brady as soon as possible.

But I bet they had a pretty high grade on him and the value was too good to pass up.

Garoppolo is the best option of the off-season (if he is available). But the best option doesn't meant he most logical option. He still has risk and that needs to be taken into account.

His price is going to be huge. The Eagles got a first round pick for Sam Bradford after training camp when no one was trying to trade for QBs. There will be several teams competing for Garoppolo and that will drive the price up. I don't see how we could get him for less than a first round pick, but the 12th pick is probably too high. A swap of first rounders and then additional picks from us would probably make the most sense.

I don't think it will cost 12. If 12 had to be included that would mean a team ahead of 12 was offering their pick. Every team that should be in contention picks after us in the 2nd and we have 4 seconds in 2 years. If we want him he's our and it likely won't cost a 1st

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2017/01/03/g...immy-garoppolo/


By Greg Gabriel–

(CBS) Last week there were various national media reports that the New England Patriots may consider trading third-year backup quarterback Jimmy Garoppolo. Most of these reports originally came out of the New England area, so the initial perception was it was someone from the Patriots who leaked what the organization might want in a trade for Garoppolo. The reported asking price in a potential deal was a first-round pick and fourth-round pick in this April’s draft.

I’m skeptical that the Patriots would leak something like that with the season ongoing and the playoffs awaiting. On top of that, I’m not so sure that New England really wants to trade Garoppolo. Why? Because current starter Tom Brady will be 40 years old when the 2017 regular season start. There can’t be much gas left in that tank, and coach Bill Belichick has to prepare for his eventual replacement. If Garoppolo has the talent to be that replacement, why trade him and weaken the franchise?

Over the years, Belichick has kept the Patriots playing at such a high level in part because he consistently trades players that he sees trending downhill in their talent level or because they aren’t as good as the national perception. He keeps getting high picks for these players, only a few of whom have panned out with their new team. So why give up such a high price for a player that Belichick essentially doesn’t want? If Belichick is willing to trade Garoppolo with Brady near the end of his career, he can’t be as good as the perception.

Next, let’s look at what Garoppolo’s value really is. He was a second-round selection in 2014 after an excellent career at Eastern Illinois. In his three years with the Patriots, he hasn’t played much. As a rookie in 2014, he got some mop-up duty in blowouts, playing in six games and completing 19 of 27 passes for 182 yards, a touchdown and no interceptions. In 2015, he only attempted four passes, completing one.

With Brady serving a four-game suspension this year because of “Deflategate,” more opportunity awaited Garoppolo. But because of a shoulder injury, Garoppolo only started the first two games of the season. His numbers were excellent — 496 yards and four touchdowns combined in two games, with no interceptions — and the Patriots won.

Despite his strong performances, the concern is Garoppolo’s overall body of work is minimal. We haven’t seen enough to really know. Lets’s use Bears quarterback Matt Barkley as an example. He looked good in his first couple of starts, then it was all downhill after that.

A team has to be careful when it makes a purchase. Adding worry to Garoppolo’s limited experience is the fact that no quarterback who Belichick has traded has ever played at a high level at his next stop.

Is Garoppolo talented? Yes, there’s no question about that, but he’s also an unknown commodity because of his lack of experience. He could turn out to be a great player. He also could turn out to be nothing. If a team’s front office pays a high price for him, those individuals are gambling their careers on that move. If he turns out to be good, they get extensions. If he fails to live up to expectations, they get the pink slip.

My feeling is that if you really want to trade for Garoppolo, the team has to protect itself because there’s potential downside to the deal. I would only do a deal that has clauses based on team performance and Garoppolo’s personal performance. I would give up a pick in the 2017 draft but not more than a third-rounder. In that situation, I would also include a pick in the 2018 draft that would have the performance clauses attached to it.

If Garoppolo puts up good numbers and the team wins, then by all means give up that 2018 first-rounder. He obviously was worth it. But if he ends up being just an ordinary player, then the pick that is conveyed must be much lower — perhaps another third-rounder or fourth-rounder. Such an approach has the potential to be a win-win for both teams and the team trading for Garoppolo protects itself and its future.

If a trade can’t be made that way, I wouldn’t do the deal. I’d rather take my chances drafting a quarterback high and developing him. This type of approach on the trade market and entering the draft would be smart decision-making.

The Vikings traded a first for Sam Bradford with no market.

IMO if BB is willing to trade Jimmy G. with all the reasons given then he probably is not as good as some might think. I wouldn't make the trade unless it was no more than a 2nd and 4th. If the Pat's don't agree then let's draft our own guy and develop him. I know we haven't been able to do this in the past but I think we have the right coach in place to do it now. We are due to finally find a good one.

Mac; It sounds like you have an agenda against Jimmy G. To say he is injury prone is a streath. Garrett has a nagging angle injury. Do you think we should;nt draft him. Is he injury prone?

Yes and the Vikings also had no other options, all the cards were in the Eagles hand and it was post draft where teams get desperate. The Eagles took advantage as they should've and the Vikings bet their record.

The pats hold no cards. If they keep him they lose him for much less value, he will be traded likely pre draft with teams able to backup losing out on him with draft picks. The only escalator of his value is other teams interest. I highly doubt any team will be willing to give a top 10 pick for him pre draft (perhaps a future 1st if the pats hold him until may). Maybe someone will but it just isn't very logical. So basically if any team wants to outbid us they will have to use their 1st pick which will almost immediately dry up the interest.

Actually the Pats hold all the cards ... all 52 OF THEM ...

Most of u all ASS-U-ME its a done deal that he will be traded ... does it make sense .. yup ... will it happen ... if and only if bill gets what HE WANTS ... this is a SB contending team ... if he trades Jimmy .. that leaves him with Brissett, an unproven rookie up to this point ...

Bottom Line ... Bill will set the price ... that price will be what Bill decides his INSURANCE POLICY is worth ...

Is it worth a mid - late 2nd .... is that enough? .. i dunno ... its not like your guaranteed a sure fire good player then ... hell ... i would bet more picks in that range dissapoint more than they excel ...

At 33 ... u have a much better shot of getting a good player ... but again ... is it worth it ...

The other thing that will drive up Jimmy's price ... U have:

SF, Chicago, Buffalo, us and the Jets that need QB's .. ad that to the fact that none of the QB's coming out are given high first round grades and u have the recipe for a big market for Jimmy ...

This will be fun to watch unfold ... and if a trade does happen ... we'll never know .. but that'd be one proccess i'd like to see the entire Pats negotiation booklet on ... lots going on there .. *L* ..

This is going to be a fun off season in that s far as I'm concerned .. there's more "interesting" stories than I can ever remember ...

You literally just made my point diam lol you say the pats have all the cards because they don't have to trade him. They don't. But they will lose a ton of value if they dont. That's why they have zero cards. You know very well bill would never turn down value aND he'll get trash by letting Jimmy walk. You gotta remember that late 3rd comp pick they get when he walks isn't until 2019. Getting a 2nd and 3rd for him now would be like 2 1sts in 2019. You think he'd hold onto him to trade 2 1sts for a basically 4th round pick? Not a chance. Bill can only set a price if he had a truly valuable reason to bring him back for another year. An insurance policy isn't worth the difference between that value. Bill isn't that foolish.

I wonder how many times people are going to completely ignore that the Pats will almost certainly lose Jimmy G to free agency next year?

How do people not get that getting a good return on their investment makes sense for NE?

I do NOT know if NE will trade Jimmy G. In my opinion, it makes sense to trade him and get nice compensation for him rather than losing him to FA and getting less in return. I am not sure how that is even debatable.

It has NOTHING to do w/NE thinking he isn't that good. Please stop spinning that argument.

It ranks right there w/the injury prone thang and the he stinks because he is from NE thang.

Bingo! Listen up, people...

What if Jimmy G won't re-sign with the Browns after a trade?

I didn't even come close to making your point for U ... not even remotely close ... your focusing on one thing and one thing only ... DRAFT VALUE ... that's it ... there's also his value as an INSURANCE POLICY ... there gonna be a SB contender next year ... if Brady goes down ... how much VALUE DOES BILL PLACE ON THAT? .... u appearantly think thats ZERO ... i disagree ... i don't know what that value is ...

BUT i do know thats the ONLY VALUE that counts ....

U also don't want to acknowledge the fact there's more than likely going to be a BIG MARKET for him if Bill does decide to put him on the market ... that tends to drive up the price ...

Knowing Bill ... he'll prolly field offers for him and see what shakes out .... why will he do that ... cause its SMART .... and if he tells us that lets say the Cardinals offered them the #13 pick for Jimmy ... what do we do then? ... what if the Bears offer him the #3 pick ... and if they deem him the best QB available this year why wouldn't they give up their first round pick for him? ... it makes sense ... no? ... what if that happend ... what do we do then? ...

I don't know whats going to happen ... but IF and thats IF he does decide to put him out there ... there could be a bidding war if 2 or 3 teams are serious about him ...

And dude ... don't pretend there's not teams out there that will do that ... especially if they think he's better than the QB's coming out ....

But hey .. what do i know ... *shrugs* ....

There would likely be some protection. A "sign-and-trade"?

Yep. People are comparing him to guys like Hoyer and Cassel.

However, Jimmy G was drafted in the second round.

Hoyer was undrafted.

Cassell was drafted in the 7th round.

Also, I want to bring up one other point. A previous poster said that Brissett played well after he replaced Jimmy G. I don' think that is an accurate comment. Judge for yourselves:



In Brissets first start, the Pats won 27 to 0, but Brisset threw for a pathetic 105 yards.


In his second start, New England suffered their first loss of the season. Brissett did not throw for a TD.

They were shut out by the Buffalo Bills. The final was 16 to 0! Brissett only threw for 205 yards. Obviously, Brissett did not throw for a TD.

I think the claim that Brissett did well in relief of Brady and Jimmy G is misleading.

You didnt say anything here I don't mostly agree with. You just failed to read my posts earlier. I covered the factors you've referenced as well as a few others. You can look back if you want.

The only issue I disagree with is the insurance. I don't disagree that he would want insurance but that he needs the same 2. Brissett is more than capable and after the trade he will have more ammo to bring in a new 3rd qb. Also your post structure is very difficult to deal with