DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Hiring Gregg Williams (according to LaCanfora)

to get back to a decent debate instead of more urination contests

do you believe horton had any chance at all to turn this defense into a mid level defense next year?

Do you believe Williams and his switch to the 4-3 suits this team's personnel better?

Can Williams take what we have and some new additions and turn this into a mid level or higher defense in one year.

For me, I just did not see anyway Horton was going to improve this teams defense. Honestly, it felt like we were just stuck in this 3-4 conversion since Romeo took over and the only decent defense we have fielded since was jauron's bend dont break 4-3.


I dont know if Williams can do more but I believe there is a chance that we do make a good job in defense under Williams and I just had no hope under horton. I honestly thought he was just overwhelmed and grasping to stay afloat.

Took a few months break from here, but see nothing has really changed. Ha.

I've preached consistency for years now - the whole "the only thing we don't change is that we never stop changing things".

That said - I never like the Horton hiring; it never made sense. He never had a good track record. He never fielded a good defense. Replacing him is/was a good move, in my opinion.

do you believe horton had any chance at all to turn this defense into a mid level defense next year? Hell no.

Do you believe Williams and his switch to the 4-3 suits this team's personnel better? Williams' 4-3, 3-4, 5-2, or whatever scheme he plays will suit this team better, period.

Can Williams take what we have and some new additions and turn this into a mid level or higher defense in one year. Maybe, I'll say probably, at least rank 15-20, IMO

Without a crystal ball, I can practically guarantee we'll be happier with the defense we put out next year than we were with the one this year. JMHO

Yeah, that's why you responded.

How about we break down the defense by roles rather than specific formations?

What does hiring Gregg Williams mean to the Browns defense?

Regardless of what front the Browns show, there are a bunch of different roles that Williams will want to have specific players be capable of filling if he is allowed to be as aggressive as his best defenses have been. Let’s focus on who might be starting in each role.

Speed-rush guy: Maybe Emmanuel Ogbah could be his speed-rush guy, but he wouldn’t be best in this role. The Browns just don’t have such a player on their roster. The good news is that one of the best to come out in years is available in the 2017 NFL Draft and the Browns have the first pick. Williams will be pounding his fists, stomping his feet, and screaming for Texas A&M defensive end Myles Garrett. The Browns should listen.

Pass rusher with a bit more power, polish: Ogbah will need to step up his game to fill this role. If Garrett is going to be able to get some 1-on-1 blocking, then the offense is going to have to worry about the other defensive end too. Ogbah continuing to develop pass rush moves and adding strength will crucial to this defense.

1- and 3-technique disruptors at defensive tackle: Enter Danny Shelton and Desmond Bryant as Williams will not want his defensive tackles just standing around. Since Bryant has struggled to stay healthy, the Browns might be best seeing if they can find another as Jamie Meder and Xavier Cooper might not provide the consistent push that will be needed from the starter.

Weak-side linebacker (Will): A heavy run blitzer who can rack up ridiculous tackle numbers. The player needs to be solid tackler, speedy, and ruthless, which is why Christian Kirksey might be perfect.

Middle linebacker (Mike): The defensive quarterback calls the blitzes by audible, gets in and out of formations, and still needs to be explosive tackler. This position is why it is imperative that the Browns re-sign Jamie Collins.

Strong-side linebacker (Sam): This backer still needs to be able to pass rush, but needs the ability to take on the TE and even OT more often during the run game. Shedding blocks will be key there and perhaps even setting the edge when in fronts that bring the Sam up to the LOS. A big difference than a standard Sam backer scheme though is that this player will need to be super athletic and be able to fall back into coverage, take the flats to remove the threat of screens and the circle route, as well as getting to the quarterback. Carl Nassib might make some sense in this role but he is not a perfect fit by any means. Demario Davis likely doesn’t have enough speed to play a prominent role on this team anymore.

Strong Safety: Needs someone in the middle who can lay a lick, so Derrick Kindred might work here. He, and the rest of the defense, will need to clean up the tackling though. Missed tackles will have less help behind them, so the team needs to change to become a sure-tackling team pretty quickly.

Free Safety: How do you cover up when an offense beats the blitz and throws it deep to 1-on-1 coverage? Well, having a safety who can sprint over large portions of the field and swat the ball away (or take it away himself) is what will be needed. There is no one on the Browns roster who even begins to fill this role. If the Browns are willing to wait on a quarterback though, then they might be able to draft Jamal Adams from LSU (unlikely, he is a Top 5 talent) or Malik Hooker from the Ohio State University at pick No. 12.

Cornerbacks: Williams likes his cornerbacks to be big, strong, physical guys with plenty of length capable of pushing around receivers at the line and swatting balls away in coverage. Corners cannot ever get caught looking into the backfield, so expect a renewed energy decrying those who have this bad habit (*cough* Joe Haden *cough*). It does not mean the end of all smaller corners either though as having a couple of guys who can better cover the growing contingent of quick slot receivers will still be desired.

Special consideration: Jabrill Peppers is a special talent who will need a defensive coordinator willing to move him around and use him in many, many roles to take full advantage of his versatility. The fact he can play multiple positions also could allow a defense to audible with more ease. So, while it was questionable if Horton would have used such a player, it is without question that Williams would use Peppers everywhere.
Last Word

The Browns are going to be a different defense. There will be more aggressiveness to take advantage of weak spots in offensive formations. The key to it working will be the front office continuing to find talented players to fill the gaps and for those players (and the ones we have now) to learn the huge defensive playbook that Williams has created over his many years in the NFL. If there is a specific defensive front that you prefer, then you’re in luck. You’ll get to see the Browns in it at some point.

Cleveland Browns made needed change replacing Ray Horton with Gregg Williams -- Terry Pluto

Terry Pluto

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Here's basic fact that is seldom mentioned when the Cleveland Browns change head coaches in the off-season -- they have a very hard time putting together a coaching staff.

The Browns hired Hue Jackson on January 13, 2016.

He was their fourth head coach in six years. Here's the list: Pat Shurmur (2011-12), Rob Chudzinski (2013), Mike Pettine (2014-15) and Jackson (2016).

If you are a big-time coordinator, you probably were already off the market by the time Jackson was hired a year ago. Or else, you probably would decide Cleveland is a risky place to work.

So when Jackson was looking for a defensive coordinator, he had two choices:

Someone who had not been a defensive coordinator before.
Someone who recently had been fired and had a spotty record as a defensive coordinator.

Because Jackson was going to spend so much time with the offense, he correctly realized he needed an experienced coordinator. That guy would be a like a head coach for the defense.

Ray Horton already had been fired by the Browns in 2013. That was part of the fallout when Chudzinski was fired after one year.

I was told one option was keeping Chudzinski, but the Browns were going to fire Horton. They went for the nuclear option, and started over.

Horton went to Tennessee as defensive coordinator in 2014. In 2015, he remained with the Titans, but was demoted as veteran Dick LeBeau was put in charge of the defense. Horton is a LeBeau disciple, so they were able to work together.

But the fact remains, Horton had problems with his defense with the Browns in 2013 and with Tennessee in 2014.

Jackson knew that when hiring Horton, who was still being paid by the Browns from his 2013 contract.

It didn't work out again.

I'm not going to blame Horton for everything. But if he had a better track record, then it would be easier to make a case for more patience.

By midseason, I was ready for a new defensive coordinator because many of the same problems Horton had with the Browns in 2013 reappeared in 2016.

I'm not going bury you with all the defensive stats. They are bad.

Virtually everyone who closely follows the NFL will say Gregg Williams should make the Browns better.

I'm glad they made the move.

My hope with the LB spots is that Williams splits time with them all at different spots. Collins and Kirksey are about to put up numbers. We need to figure out who that 3rd LB will be. Lots of guys competing for that spot.

-Davis: Immediately came in as a leader. I truly think he is underappreciated. Just not sure if his time here was a "one and done" deal or if he's a part of the coach's plans. He may be the player sacrificed to get the younger guys more playing time.

-Schobert: started strong in preseason and completely fell off during regular season and saw his playing time cut like crazy.

-Cam Johnson: shown to be a good pass rusher. could be an underdog during the offseason/preseason. Could see a substantial increase in playing time.

-Orchard: injury hurt his season. I've not been not a huge fan, even with his success in college, but he plays physical and seems stout against the run.

-Dom Alexander: Only thing I know is he was decent at OU. If I remember correctly, I think his name was mentioned a few times by coaches during training camp, but just didnt see the field much.

We should be worrying about who our third and fourth corner will be, not about who our third linebacker will be. The player you are discussing will be on the field at most 30% of the time (and probably way less than that).

Orchard was a defensive end/pass rusher in college, it'll be interesting to see if he can develop into a situational pass rusher under Williams. My bet is that he does not make the team.

If I'm not mistaken, orchard was a healthy scratch at times and didn't see a lot of the field in general.
Let's not forget, Myles Garrett will enter into the equation, after we draft him.

Haden, Taylor, Boddy-Calhoun

You want to pay haden 14 mil to produce worse than most teams nickle cb for 8 games next season?

It's possible Nate may become more productive under GW. I don't think RH was that good at getting the most out of his players. We'll see if GW can.

That group does not inspire confidence.

One things williams said very clearly, they will be aggressively tackling and there will be no loafing. I predict Hayden will have a career year or be gone. It will be interesting to see how the attitude changes on defense when it comes to tackling.

I think Haden might be gone. I noticed in one report, Taylor was mentioned as a building block along w/two other guys, but Haden was not.

Another thing, Joe Haden had his best year by far under Horton the first time around. Haden spoke glowingly about Horton. Claims of blaming the coaches for lack of player development are made from ignorance and hoping for the best w/the new coaches. We hear that junk every freaking year. Changing coaches has instead typically provided the opposite overall effect. Joe Thomas agrees that that theory.

One thing for sure, the Browns secondary is a mess. The Browns don't have one S that should be starting. Their corners are pathetic. That unit needs an extreme makeover.

Yeah, I noticed that the last few years w/how dynamic the Rams' offense has been. LMAO

How do you spell delusional?

Not sure what that has to do w/Williams upgrading the offense as you previously claimed.

And if you are short-sighted enough to not recognize that Hue obviously saw something in Horton to fire him the first time.........well, it ain't worth the time to talk to you about it.

Fans like you think firing coaches is the way to go. History tells a very different story. I'll side w/history rather than fickle fans.

I don't usually agree with mac, but I believe his post to be... logical

mac, obviously you haven't seen the Rams' offense for the last couple of years. Maybe you should take time to research just how freaking pathetic they have been?

j/k

In case you missed it the first time, I think this say's it all:


So when Jackson was looking for a defensive coordinator, he had two choices:

Someone who had not been a defensive coordinator before.
Someone who recently had been fired and had a spotty record as a defensive coordinator.


I don't think Hue had much choice last year, Do you really want to waste another year with Horton? We all know how thats gonna end. Just like last time. Same problems this time.

I have no idea. Do you?

mac, now let me ask you a few questions.

If Horton was fired because the D was so bad, shouldn't Hue be fired for how bad the offense was? Shouldn't all of the FO guys be fired for how poor the talent was?

Guys like you wanna blame Horton for the lack of talent that he was given and pretend firing coaches is going to magically change things.

Guys like me have watched the Browns fire coach after coach after coach after coach and have seen the same pitiful, pathetic results year in and year out. We also see how teams like the Steelers keep their coaches in place and are continually in the playoffs while Brown's fans are talking about the draft in September.

Glad you enjoy losing so much, mac.

I think there are a couple different themes here that are worth separating.

It appears most everyone agrees that Willaims is likely to be a better DC than Horton, regardless of the talent. I don't see anyone saying we should have kept Horton because of his coaching prowess.

It seems that most or all agree that lack of continuity with our staff is one major reason for our continued woes since 1999. And the turnover has got worse - Haslam has been through an ridiculous number of FO personnel in his brief time as owner. So I think most want that cycle to change and agree that continuity is needed to lay a foundation and be successful.

So then it boils down to 2 simple factors for me:

[1] Who is the one calling for the change? Is it the meddling owner Haslam - in which case I am really skeptical .... or it the the new HC pulling the trigger because he wants HIS team to be built the way he wants it to be. . . and if change means bringing in a better coach anywhere within the structure, and Hue believing the team is better for it, then I am 100% on board with it. As I pointed out elsewhere - the alternative is for Hue to say he wants to bring in Williams and Haslam or someone else saying no to what Hue wants.... is that how you want the team to be run??? I really doubt it.

[2] Firstly I think it's more important that Hue is allowed to assemble his coaching staff exactly as he wants it - hiring and firing based on Hue's decisions and based on the reality of signing who he wants etc. That really appears to be what has happened here based on what Hue has said in the media and what has been reported . . . . but another consideration has to be the ability of the respective coaches and the potential positive impact of better coaching versus the potential negative impact of lack of continuity..... And for me this one is a no brainer on two counts: Hue is the one calling the shots, and Williams is a significant upgrade over Horton. Both those factors mean that the positive impact outweighs the negative impact.

For me both points get a check mark in the "it's the right move" .... to argue for continuity simply for the sake of continuity is not any argument at all. You have to look at the bigger picture.

j/c

I think we are better off with GW than RH...talent aside...so this is a good thing. Pretty simple really.

Hence the "j/c" before my post.

It had to happen eventually

Now lets hope that we have a solid draft and that 2016 was the chit sandwich that we had to eat in order to lay the foundation that turns this team around.

I know we've mixed it up in the past, and this isn't that. It's just my case laid out logically (I hope) so don't take this as a personal attack. Also, I respect your views on continuity in general, and on the mistakes the FO have made specifically, so this is neither an indictment of that or an endorsement of the FO personnel specifically.

Horton sucks as a DC. Williams is a huge upgrade. Not upgrading the position when the opportunity presented itself would have been a supreme mistake. Continuity makes sense as a concept but it wouldn't have made a lick of sense in this very real, practical case. Hiring a good coach to replace a bad coach trumps continuity as a concept every time.

Blaming the FO for their current mistakes is logical, but aligning those mistakes with poor decisions made in the past is misguided. The slate must be wiped clean, they deserve the opportunity to get it right, even if it doesn't happen the first time. This applies to Haslam as well. They have all made mistakes, that's true, and will make others, in all likelihood, but saying this organization should know better, is tantamount telling your wife she's mishandling the checkbook just like your four previous wives, and should know better because it's happened so many times before.

In this Horton/Williams case, though, the firing/hiring was Hue's choice. He didn't want Horton, he wanted Williams because that's how he sees his staff developing going forward. Hue has the right and need to shape his staff as he sees fit, regardless of fan-based notions of continuity.

Performance and fit must be evaluated within the framework. If fans want to blame Horton's performance on lack of talent, they have no say in fit. If fans believe in continuity, then they need to give the HC the reigns to build his staff the way he envisions it, or he won't be here long. Hue had a titch over zero options when he initially assembled his staff. The change at DC, after his performance, knowing his ranking history, with the availability of a top DC candidate is good, smart decision. One, in my view, that finally (along with the hiring of Hue) helps set us on the proper course.

The results from last 4 defenses coached by Ray Horton

2017 NFL draft #1 pick
2016 NFL draft #1 Pick
2015 NFL draft #2 pick
2014 NFL draft #4 pick

"Mour drops the mic and exits the stage"

mac, I'm glad you enjoy losing. However, don't expect me to join in w/you and the others who think firing coaches every stinking year is a good move.

This organization has fired coaches every year for how many years in a row? Got any clue?

This organization going back to 1999 has had a huge amount of turnover in both the coaching staff and in the front office.

You would think by now that even hard-headed fans would be smart enough to realize that firing people and constantly bring in new schemes and new players to fit those schemes has been an epic failure.

I have said this for over a decade and I will continue to say it until the idiots who run the Browns finally figure it out:

Do as much research as needed to formulate a sound plan. And then, even more importantly, have the stones to stick w/that plan rather than blowing things up every year or two.

Take a lesson from teams like New England, Pittsburgh, and Green Bay and stick w/things and stop believing that making constant changes is the answer.

mac, I would encourage you and the other apologists for the Browns to go to the Rookie All Star thread and read YTown's epic post. He is dead nuts on. That thread should get a sticky at the top of the page in this forum, the Game Day forum, and even the Draft forum.

j/c:

Defensive rankings of Williams in a recent Pluto article:



Full article here.