DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Jimmy G. trade to the Browns Part 2

My feet are firmly planted in REALITY unlike some ... so no worries about me ignoring THINGS ... there's alot of posters i IGNORE but not THINGS/INFORMATION ... *L* ....

Im not sure what will happen unlike U and the other menZas who know its a done deal ...

Oh well ... i've expressed my opinion ... no need to keep repeating myself ... later boys ...

Is that anything like mac and cheese?

This is where I'm stuck. On one hand you have the fact that JG is only under contract for one more year. That makes trading him now appealing to NE. On the other hand, they have him for one more year, as a completely viable backup to Brady. Anything can happen next season, including injury, thoughts of retirement, etc. That makes trading him now unappealing.

Balancing the two, BB floats the idea of a trade, and if some moronic team like the Browns comes along and offers up a high first and a second (or some other such nonsense) he jumps all over it.

Then again, if he's willing to take say, our second number two and possibly a fourth, or say even both our twos, then the Browns would have a hard time passing that up. You have to figure it will simply comes down to price/value for both teams (NE and whoever the trade partner is, if there is one.)

first rumor i heard was browns and pats have a basic agreement of a 2 and 4 unless someone blows the pats away with a better deal, its done. That hasnt changed.

Now we have Romo in play for a lot of teams. We have Deshaun flashing on the big stage. Hearing teams are calling Mini about Teddy and then you have some folks like ME that believe Mike Glennon can be a solid QB in t his league.

Gonna be an interesting few months.

Some listener sent Rizzo a funny tweet today on the RBS. I guess they were talking about sending two #2's for Garoppolo. The tweet said: If you think I'll give up rights to Brian Robiskie and David Veikune for Jimmy Garoppolo, you're crazy!

I LOL'ed.

That's correct...his present contract expires at the end of the 2017 football year.

We get it you're a stat guy instead of a film guy. Yet still all those interceptions don't seem to bother you. It's only going to get worse in the NFL when he doesn't have such good WR bailing him out of bad passes. God if the Browns draft him our GREAT WR will sure be able to bail him out LOL.

BTW since you like stats so much Jimmy G. had over 5000 passing yard, 53 TD to ONLY 9 interceptions his senior year playing with a bad o-line and WRs who didn't quite make it in the nfl. Well one plays for the Bills as a CB lol. He accomplished a lot with very little to work with. In other words he lifted his team and carried them to wins. THAT is a franchise QB.

Watson just had the benefit of playing on a team with a LOT of talent. When you watch the video there are too many times he makes bad throws and makes bad decisions. I mean I don't think he is horrible or anything so don't get me wrong. I just don't think his game style and just avg accuracy will do that great long term in the NFL.

Lol I know! If only we had a pick 22 to offer LOL!

What makes you think I'm not a film guy?

There are good QB's around the league who had an interception problem in college throughout history.

Winston is the most recent one just off the top of my head. You also know who else had a high interception rate back in the day?

Dan Marino.

It's funny how you call me a stat guy, yet turn around and use the inception STAT as the sole qualifying reason as to why Jimmy is better than Watson.

Either practice what you preach, or put a lid on it.

It's funny how you try and use the talent around Watson as a negative criteria, as if to say that if he comes here, he won't have:

A 1000 yard WR
A pro bowl TE
A 1st round WR
A 4.8 yards per carry RB
And the best LT in the league.

But if we got Jimmy G, you'd be the first person who won't shut up about the talent we have to offer him on the roster.

Breaking news: QB's need talent surrounding them in order to lead the team to the post season. News at 11.

His 2013 season when he had 53 TD's and 5000 yards. Awesome,....and so what?

Look at the conference he played in. What do you think Watson, who's a better talent, would've done in that crap conference? What would Aaron Rodgers, Winston, Mariota, manning, hell freaking Cousins do in a wack conference like that?

Jimmy G didn't play anybody. Sorry, but for me, that matters.

Watson's las year in college:

4593 yards, 41 TD's, 629 rushing, 9 TD's.

Oh yea, add national title to that.

Watson is worth a 1st. Definitely our #12.

Jimmy G isn't worth anything more than a third. I can live with our back end 2nd.

I have NUMEROUS posts through several threads that talk about the actual abilities of both QBs unrelated to stats. You have never offered anything more than stats. He is one of many QBs who have inflated stats from playing on a team loaded with talent and that is all he has going for him. He doesn't have great footwork or mechanics. He doesn't have great accuracy or ball placement. Instead he throws a lot of jump balls and throws where his receivers have to make GREAT catches to save him. He has happy feet but certainly isn't built like a cam newton to take those kind of hits at the NFL level. He is your typical mobile QB which seldom make the transition to the NFL or last long when they do.

There is no logical reason to think Watson is even worthy of a first round pick much less in the top half unless you just love inflated stats.

We have some potential on offense if we fix the center and RT positions. Joe and Joel are awesome! Greco is OK.

TP is not resigned yet and 1000 yard receiver is not that big a deal except here in Cleveland. There were 25 WR that had 1000 plus yards and 34 who almost had 1000 at 900 plus. TP was ranked 22 in yards and he didn't earn much in YAC in fact he was rank 135th in the NFL for YAC yards. I think he has potential but he has not shown himself to be a top tier WR just yet.

Corey has not shown anything all that great yet but I hope he lives up to his potential.
Barnidge is a solid guy but that's it the Hue is using him so far.

i've offered plenty more than stats in the draft breakdown joints in the draft forum. it's not my problem you didn't read them.

or maybe you decided to ignore it.

and the more i read your post, the more i wonder how many games you've actually watched of Watson? because ball placement is something you wouldn't be concerned about if that was the case. those back shoulder throws Watson does on a routine bases is nothing short of beautiful.

and WR making great catches? isn't that their job? did you not just see a receiver make a great catch the other night? Cook doesn't make that catch, there's a chance the Packers don't win that game in overtime.

i truly do not understand this knock against a QB for having great talent around him. are you saying Matt Ryan has inflated numbers because of Julio Jones? or Peyton with Harrison and Wayne? Or Brady with Moss and then Gronk? or Brees with Coulston?

or Aaron rodgers with Nelson and Cobb?

you're argument is horrible once broken down. sorry about it.

So i'll repeat it again, if we can get Jimmy G for a third, what he's currently worth based off of lack of production in the NFL (not his fault for playing behind the GOAT), then fine. make it happen.

but nevermind a 1st rounder, he hasn't done a damn thing to even warrant his 2nd round draft status.

and i know you're not talking about body build. if that was the case, you wouldn't be talking about Trubisky in the draft threads. they are the same freaking build. and Watson is more athletic than both of them.

and withstand nfl hits? your boy got injured in his 2nd nfl start. again, not a good argument. we already have 3 of those on the roster than can do the same thing for us.

Having a habit of throwing to the back shoulder instead of throwing it where it leads the WR open is VERY bad. It will lead to interceptions or WR on the injury list at the NFL level. It not a knock to have great WR but its a knock to NEED great WR or else you're in trouble. Watson gets bailed out a LOT. I don't see the reciever on this team able to bail him out from bad passes except maybe barnidge but they cover him heavily these days.

Is Trub a mobile running type QB? No he isn't so he won't be taking the same KIND of hits that Watson will. This is why I compared him to Cam because Cam is one of the few successful CONVERTED QB and I don't like him that much either. IF Watson was a pocket passer then sure compare him to trub or jimmy g.

The fact you keep going with this utter nonsense of Jimmy G. being worth a third rounder is proof you have not watched him much if at all. A QB going to a smaller school doesn't mean that much. You look at the actual skill set and how he uses it. Jimmy G. has an excellent skill set. Flat out excellent. Trub to a lesser and extent but he has the advantage of being a few years younger or disadvantage.

Jimmy G. has been drafted in the PERFECT scenario. He was drafted and then got to sit and learn at the NFL level which is rare these days. He has shown in limited play time that he can do in the NFL exactly what he did in college, which is, dominate the other team. Now he is ready to be a starter and he will be a VERY good one because he has the right skill set. PERIOD. He is FAR better than any QB in this draft that is for SURE!

LOL it also helps he wasn't drafted and ruined by the BROWNS. LOL. Still we have Hue now, so I think Jimmy can do great things here =)

Back shoulder throws are by design. You do realize you have to have some sort of accuracy to pull those kind of throws off, right?

And there's plenty of film on him throwing WRs open.

But see, I also understand that Watson is a rookie. You seem to have this idea that he's not perfect, so he must not be worth anything. Jimmy G ain't perfect either.

Sit and learn doesn't mean a whole lot in the NFL. If that was the case, then you can explain- based on your own logic here- why Hoyer, Mallet, Cassel, Flynn, etc didn't make it?

They sat and learned too. So what happened? There are QB's who start and do amazing as well. There also QB's who start day one, or sit and learn, who end up being crap.

That's not a viable criteria. Sit and learning is awesome if you plan on staying in the same system. But moving teams? That kind of criteria gets devalued some.

So on Trubisky. Now it's the kind of hits?

Bro, Watson took 17 sacks this season. Trubisky took 20.

I wish I could find the QB hits as that's also something to add, but again, when breaking down your argument, it starts falling apart real quick.

And in case you need a remember, McCown got murdered in the pocket. Not on the run, in the pocket this season. Same with Kessler.

I want a mobile QB. These defense are way too fast to be standing back there like a statue. Even tom Brady has worked on better mobility and movement in the pocket the last few years.

Look at Aaron Rodgers. His MONEY is made off of extending plays and being out of the pocket. Russell Wilson, Mariota, etc.

Jimmy g, imo, is not better than Watson. And hell, I rather have Mitch Trubisky than Jimmy g for what it's gonna cost us to get that dude from the patriots.

As a matter of fact, I rather sign Tyrod Taylor.

mobile QB? what are your thoughts on Tyrod Taylor if the Bills cut him loose? then save draft picks for other needs?

lol oops Swish sorry did not see the Taylor comment on the bottom of your post...

Man bro, I'm trying to be consistent in my message, because I want us to draft the franchise.

But of course it's never that simple, so I have to look at these QB's based off of value.

And with Tyrod Taylor, there isn't a better value out there.

If you're trying to guess the kind of QB Hue wants, then I see Taylor actually being a better fit than Jimmy G.

He wants a borderline dual threat QB. Or at least a very mobile one. It's why we took a flyer on RG3.

But Tyrod doesn't have the injury history. He's stayed relatively healthy and reliable as a two year starter. Hue wants to run the ball, at least he keeps saying that, but I feel like he wants a QB who has that threat as well to keep the defense honest.

And Tyrod Taylor offers that. He is a huge contributor to the rushing game, adding over 500 yards in back to back seasons, as well as at least 4 TD's on the ground as well.

Then you add in the additional evidence that he takes care of the football, with low interception numbers, decent passing yards, TD's, and yards per pass WHILE having a crap WR Corp because Watkins is always hurt, and the value of Tyrod makes him the top QB potentially in FA this off season if cut.

Tyrod Taylor doesn't get the respect he deserves because of the kind of offense they run. It's run heavy, and that's great. Because we have Crow and Duke. But because the bills defense is trash under Rex, Tyrod doesn't get all the hype. They'd be in the playoffs if it wasn't for Rex and Rob destroying that defense, and we probably wouldn't even get to talk about signing Tyrod.

So I want us to draft THE guy, but if we go with Taylor then that means we can draft defense with our first two picks, get a center and maybe even a RT with our second rounders.

We plug in way more holes, while giving up less resources for Taylor. He's an above average QB with a top ten QBR in back to back seasons. The value in that, as well as long term is crazy.

And since everybody on the board keeps saying the draft class is better in 2018, if we go the Taylor route, we can cut ties quick if the season is an utter disaster and get the guy we want.

Like most other threads.........this thread has turned into a farce w/so many ridiculous arguments.

Keep pounding your chests, boys.

It is not a good skill set to force the WR to twist backwards for the ball and have him running blind into a collision but hey if that's what you want from a QB ... I just think you're used to seeing it from the crap we parade out there for a QB and have forgotten how bad that is.

NFL QBs who run the ball have a MUCH higher chance of getting creamed than most pocket passing situations. That is NOT a preferable solution to finding a QB who is better with his passes and actually fixing the O-line. Might as well start RG3 than to draft another version of him.

It would be kind of fun though to have RG3 and Watson out on the field together. Man I could design some sick plays for that =)

Also, to be honest, I don't think Hue has time to wait for a rookie QB to mature and get up to game speed.

I have never seen the ability or skill to make back shoulder throws characterized as a negative before.


I don't understand the logic here. The ability to run is skill not a defining characteristic. Watson has the ability to scramble and make plays with his feet like Trubisky. Clemson used Watson as part of the running game through read-option and zone-read as an ADDED benefit. IF Trubisky was a better runner and UNC was so inclined the could have done the same with him.

Watson and Trubisky's performance from within the pocket can be measured independently from their running. Having the ability to run isn't mutually exclusive from the ability to pass. There is absolutely no reason that Watson and Trubisky can't be compared using your term of "pocket passer".

And through my film study the only area where Trubisky clearly stands out as better then Watson as passer is interceptions. Watson needs to cut down on his interceptions. He threw way to many.

But when it comes to Deep ball accuracy, Poise, Playmaking/Improvisation, Quick decision making and delivery, Going through progression, standing in the pocket under duress while maintaining follow-through (i.e. not throwing off backfoot), advanced ball placement (back shoulder throws), big game experience and success (clutch play).....I have Watson ahead in them all.

The other areas where Mitch rates higher as prospect for me are measurable...Mitch is bigger and has a stronger arm.


Since you mention that Garap was in the perfect scenario. The production you know from Garap exists in the Patriots system. Will it carry over? Who knows. But we do know that the supporting cast in New England was much better then the supporting cast in Cleveland.

Nothing against Jimmy, he could pan out. But he small sample size and ideal circumstances still makes him an unknown.

So they have a whole year to work our a contract, also to see if Brady remains strong during camp and also to make a trade or use one of the tags if that's the route they wish to go.

So what's the big deal? BB doesn't have to do anything right now unless someone blows him away with an offer for Jimmy G. He will not lose him this year. Unless he wants to.

We've "won the draft" before, and it lead to nothing, so take my opinions with a grain of salt..

If we come out of this draft, with Garrett at #1, and use #33 (plus a bit more probably) on Jimmy G..

Just think that if someone falls to 12, like a Malik Hooker? Or even possibly move back in the first round and recoup the 2nd?

I'd do that in a heartbeat.

That's exactly what I've been thinking lately.

The possibility of having:

Drafting
#1 Garrett
#12 Hooker

Trading for
Jimmy G


QB
Pass rusher
Ball hawk

I feel it will cost the Browns the #12 pick to get Jimmy G. I went on youtube and watched every pass he attempted in the first 2 weeks of this season. I feel he is worth the #12 pick and head and shoulders better than any QB coming out of this draft.

If this team wants a turn around trading for Jimmy G will speed it up greatly.

Nice post Ed. Good to see a disagreement in ideas done tastefully.

It's not like I think Watson is garbage or something. I just don't think he is worthy of being a first round selection. Personally I am not a fan of running QB's in the NFL. NFL defenses love to hit a QB on the run much harder since the rules allow them to not hold back when they do. That is not saying they don't try to kill the QB in the pocket but there are rules that protect a QB more while there. At the college level it just a LOT different and a LOT easier to get away with it.

Extending a play here and there is fine but when it gets to the point that there isn't enough patience to wait for WRs to get open and the QB is just taking off after a short wait or the first or second read is covered then it starts to become a problem. One of the reasons Watson has so many interceptions is that he lacks patience. The other is that he trusts his arm too much. He reminds me a bit of Brett Favre in that regards. It took Brett a while to learn to be more patient which is why he didn't have early success. Like Brett, Watson is going to have to be reprogrammed a good bit when he gets to the NFL if he wants to be successful.

I mean watson has some good qualities and if he is humble enough to make the changes he needs to at the NFL level he will do OK. I would not draft him with a first round pick because he will have to do a lot of work and eat some humble pie that he might be too proud to do. I don't know him personally so I make no judgements about his personality. He might be able to get it done. Who knows? I wish him luck =)

Also there is some confusion about back shoulder passes. They praise the ones on fade routes where it's designed to happen that way to create a window to catch with. Yes, those are nice to see when done well. The problem is when they start relying on it too much in other situations.

You don't want a WR to have to twist his body backwards to make a catch away from his running momentum because the QB threw a bad pass instead of hitting him in stride and leading him with the ball. A WR can really get hurt BAD catching the ball like that. Watson throws too many of these and to ME it shows an issue with accuracy and/or vision. He won't get away with this at the NFL level.

I see Watson miss a lot of his throws where he is asked to lead the WR with the ball. I see the WR having to stop and just turn backwards a LOT. It 's not good. I really saw a lot of it when Clemson played Ohio State. I mean to me when you take away his running ability, the passing ability is not all that great to me. He won't last long in the NFL if he runs, as much as, he did in college.

I completely disagree with almost every opinion you express in your last post.

Starting with the idea that Watson and Trubisky are different "types" of QB. Both can run and extend plays. I don't know what supports your opinion that Watson is a "running qb" and Trubisky isnt comes from...other then the Clemson offense had more designed runs then UNC. The ability to run is an added skill that both Watson and Trubisky share.

It is hard for me to discuss QBs/prospects in this manner because it's pointless to argue over opinions without support.

I would love to breakdown the Ohio State game with you, since you mentioned that game in particular.

Anyhow it's probably faster just to list all the opinions I disagree/think need actual support:

-Watson taking off from the pocket early
-the idea that you can 'know' why Watson throws picks
-what evidence that suggest he lacks patience waiting for receivers?
-Watson doesn't hit receivers in stride

And one last thing ALL college QBs have to make huge leaps or lol "humble" themselves and improve their game to make it in the NFL.

If I had to pick a weak spot in Watson passing its his 'risky' pass rate.

I am going to post and chart the Clemson v Ohio state game in the QB breakdown thread.

I look forward to which plays you point to that illustrate your opinions.

I want no part of Jimmy G, I have thoughts of Matt Castle dancing in my head

I would like someone to address this, if they can.

I watched one of Garoppolo's games, and he seemed to have solid enough decision making and accuracy. However, he did not push the ball down the field, or to the outside.

Anyway, I went to the splits, which I know drives some people crazy, but stats are a record of what someone has done, even if they don't tell the entire story.

Anyway,of Jimmy's 63 passes, 46 were 10 yards or less. 1/4 were behind the LOS. Of his passes 11 yards and more, he completed 8 of 16 for 170 yards.

On passes to the sidelines, he completed 16-27 for 59%. He threw mostly short,and mostly inside the hashmarks.

Those who want us to go after him in a trade, is it what you saw on the college level, or is it something you saw in his couple of games in relief of Brady? To me it looks as though he was protected to a very great degree. However, maybe I'm wrong, and if so, then please let me know what you saw from him.

Thanks.

One thing the stats don't show you is that Jimmy had a very bad offensive line. He often didn't have time to make deep throws. However when he did they were often beautiful passes. The other problem he faced is that he had horrible WRs. NONE of them went on to be WR in the NFL. He had to put the ball right in their hands or they would drop it. Its one reason he proved how good he was because he completely lifted up his team to a whole new level.

After playing in NE with an actual O-line and capable WR he looked fantastic.

Sounds great! I am often way too lazy to post videos and stuff. I just watch and observe and sometimes take notes since it usually just for myself that I watch video.

Regardless of how the final few weeks unfold, the New England Patriots will have a Jimmy G question to grapple with in the offseason.

Jimmy Garoppolo is set to enter the final year of his rookie contract, making it the ideal time for Bill Belichick to see a return on his second-round investment.

NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport said Sunday on NFL GameDay Morning that the Patriots will listen to offers for the quarterback, but it's not a given Jimmy G will get shipped out to the top bidder.

"The Patriots are open to trading Jimmy Garoppolo and they are going to listen to all offers, as they have over the last couple years for Garoppolo -- and they have gotten a couple inquiries," Rapoport said. "But from what I am being told there are several complicating factors: First of all, the price tag, expected to be at least a first-round pick -- just based off the quarterback market. Will anyone give them that? Second of all, are the Patriots really comfortable going forward with Jacoby Brissett as their backup quarterback in case Tom Brady gets hurt? That might be the biggest question of all."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...jimmy-garoppolo

The Pats can ask for a 1st, but I doubt they get it. A top 2nd will probably get it done.

I'm not saying we do it, mainly because I have no idea what kind of QB he is, but it'd be an interesting proposal.

easy solution, scout JG as a rookie coming out in draft..look at his production in college and put a valuation on him for that sample size, don't even take into consideration his time in NFL because it's a crap shoot given where he is..so if comparing JG to the QB's in this draft based on his college valuation should tell you if you should draft one or trade for him and what you'd give up.

He would easily be the first QB taken in this years draft and it would not even be close.

thats what i mean..people debating drafting or trading..put Jimmy G in this draft based on college production and would you take him above any of the QB's in this draft, if that answer is yes, then giving up a first for him isn't crazy (#12 i am talking) none of the Qb's are #1 overall material with the defensive talent in this draft

Good point. I think that Jimmy G would have been ahead of any of this year's draft eligible qbs had they all come out at the same time.

my question is. Is there a QB coming out next year that is better than any QB coming out this year? If there is, then I would prefer to wait until next year to grab one. and focus on BPA this to fill as many holes as we can.

what are your guy's thoughts on Josh Rosen from UCLA?

just curious on your take on the next QB draft class?

As of right now, Dick Hammer's grandson (Sam Darnold) is the top guy.

But you don't just "grab QBs next year." If there is a QB worth drafting number one overall, the team that is picking first usually just picks him (last year was the exception, not the rule). And if they don't need a QB they trade the pick for an astronomical price.

Banking on next year's QBs is a horrible strategy because there are too many variables to factor in.

I am not opposed to waiting for a QB next year and giving RG3 another chance. I mean if Trub falls to 33 then you have to draft him IMHO. Also, there is always the change Bill refuses to trade Jimmy G. because he is not getting the asking price for him or he signs a 2 year extension to be the heir apparent to Tom. I mean if I was Jimmy G. and Bill says, "Hey Jimmy can we do a 2 year contract extension for 8 mill per year fully guaranteed and when Tom retires your the next guy in line guaranteed?" I mean for Jimmy that is a very attractive offer because he gets money and to stay with a Champion caliber team and he knows Bill won't have a choice but to retire Tom under those circumstances.

If Jimmy says no then we nab him before the next draft if there isn't a QB we like and RG3 hasn't redeemed himself.

What I think is likely to happen though is that JImmy gets traded elsewhere, we waste a pick on a QB this year, and then next year we don't have the ammo to get the best QB even if we wanted to so we spend the next 5 years with no QB worth a darn.

I'd rather just go get Jimmy before the draft and have our future set. If it requires a first pick then maybe we can trade the pick for 2018. If we land Garrett, another person at 12 like cam, derek, jamal, hooker, or jabril and we have jimmy G too then that 2018 pick might be in the 15-25 range. Then the 2018 season will be very enjoyable I think =)