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You don't need pro bowlers at every spot. Davis is fine as a MIKE. I'm not talking about pro bowlers, I am talking about one of the most important positions in a 4-3...seems everyone is content on just sticking a body in there as long as he is about the size needed. Just curious why I am the only one a little worried about it, that's all. Irish it's because we will only field 3 lbs at most 30% of the time. Kirksey will be our defecto Mike even if he plays will in a base set (still undetermined). He is the brain of the LBers. Between Alexander, Schobert and Davis we will be just fine for those few plays we need one. Collins can play all 3 spots and kirk can play will and mike. There's really no need for a large investment in a new lber who won't play much. An extra safety or new cb are much more important. Don't get me wrong, I think FS is the most important position needed this off season. But what Greg Williams does with his offenses, I think the MLB is also an important need, I slotted Kirksey at Will and Collins at Sam...If one of them are to play Mike, I don't see who will be playing Will or Sam respectively... You say they will only be playing 3 LBers 30% of the time, but right now, when they go into that 4-3 set...ALL of our OLBers besides Collins will be moving into the DE position. I just don't see any other ILBs from last years team that correlate to the traits needed to play in the 4-3, they are all backup Will LBers at best. I'm sure Williams will adapt to whatever he has, but I agree a FS is paramount no matter what scheme we are in. I'm not as worried about CB as many are out there. Jamar Taylor was a good acquisition last year, I think with a good to great FS, all our CBs will look better. I apologize in advance because this will sound condescending but you don't understand the way an NFL defense works. Care to elaborate genius? You've come away that I don't understand NFL defense, because I have looked at our roster and figured out we don't have the proper personnel? Please enlighten me, I'm sitting on pins and needles.
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jc
hey guys i wanted to wait to ask this question, i dunno if it's been discussed already.
so we have collins now.
So we have our starting MLB and OLB.
our line as of now if we get Garrett is:
Garrett, Shelton, ?, Ogbah.
are we looking at starting Bryant beside shelton? i know meder is a rotational guy, but maybe he can start? or are you guys thinking we should try and find a DT starter in FA? I want Johnathan Hankins, but in your scenario yes. We'd start Desmond Bryant. would not Meder be better suited to play the other DT position over Dez?
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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You don't need pro bowlers at every spot. Davis is fine as a MIKE. I'm not talking about pro bowlers, I am talking about one of the most important positions in a 4-3...seems everyone is content on just sticking a body in there as long as he is about the size needed. Just curious why I am the only one a little worried about it, that's all. Irish it's because we will only field 3 lbs at most 30% of the time. Kirksey will be our defecto Mike even if he plays will in a base set (still undetermined). He is the brain of the LBers. Between Alexander, Schobert and Davis we will be just fine for those few plays we need one. Collins can play all 3 spots and kirk can play will and mike. There's really no need for a large investment in a new lber who won't play much. An extra safety or new cb are much more important. Don't get me wrong, I think FS is the most important position needed this off season. But what Greg Williams does with his offenses, I think the MLB is also an important need, I slotted Kirksey at Will and Collins at Sam...If one of them are to play Mike, I don't see who will be playing Will or Sam respectively... You say they will only be playing 3 LBers 30% of the time, but right now, when they go into that 4-3 set...ALL of our OLBers besides Collins will be moving into the DE position. I just don't see any other ILBs from last years team that correlate to the traits needed to play in the 4-3, they are all backup Will LBers at best. I'm sure Williams will adapt to whatever he has, but I agree a FS is paramount no matter what scheme we are in. I'm not as worried about CB as many are out there. Jamar Taylor was a good acquisition last year, I think with a good to great FS, all our CBs will look better. I apologize in advance because this will sound condescending but you don't understand the way an NFL defense works. Care to elaborate genius? You've come away that I don't understand NFL defense, because I have looked at our roster and figured out we don't have the proper personnel? Please enlighten me, I'm sitting on pins and needles. You asked a question. I answered it. You disregarded the important part of what i said and here we are. It's not my fault if you get butt hurt because you fail to listen and I don't have an hour to explain why NFL defenses no longer work like they did before the 90s. I don't claim to be a genius at all but I know this and I'm sorry if you get upset. It's man to man I don't think sugarcoating is necessary.
Last edited by predator16; 01/24/17 07:48 PM.
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jc
hey guys i wanted to wait to ask this question, i dunno if it's been discussed already.
so we have collins now.
So we have our starting MLB and OLB.
our line as of now if we get Garrett is:
Garrett, Shelton, ?, Ogbah.
are we looking at starting Bryant beside shelton? i know meder is a rotational guy, but maybe he can start? or are you guys thinking we should try and find a DT starter in FA? I want Johnathan Hankins, but in your scenario yes. We'd start Desmond Bryant. would not Meder be better suited to play the other DT position over Dez? Why do you say that? Meder is pretty athletically inept. The John Greco of our defense if you will. Which is great love the guy. But at 3T ideally you have your athletic freak pass rushing DT like Aaron Donald or Gerald mccoy. Meder would fit ideally as first reserve behind Danny at 1 or 0T.
Last edited by predator16; 01/24/17 07:46 PM.
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Said it before / say it again , I want a Jack Lambert .. And your old enough to remember .. lol I do, but don't you think he is rather old? He's probably lost a step or twelve.;)
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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jc
hey guys i wanted to wait to ask this question, i dunno if it's been discussed already.
so we have collins now.
So we have our starting MLB and OLB.
our line as of now if we get Garrett is:
Garrett, Shelton, ?, Ogbah.
are we looking at starting Bryant beside shelton? i know meder is a rotational guy, but maybe he can start? or are you guys thinking we should try and find a DT starter in FA? I want Johnathan Hankins, but in your scenario yes. We'd start Desmond Bryant. would not Meder be better suited to play the other DT position over Dez? Why do you say that? Meder is pretty athletically inept. The John Greco of our defense if you will. Which is great love the guy. But at 3T ideally you have your athletic freak pass rushing DT like Aaron Donald or Gerald mccoy. Meder would fit ideally as first reserve behind Danny at 1 or 0T. I wouldn't say inept, but I agree, he isn't a slasher type who gets off on a great first step to disrupt a play if he/ the coach guesses right. He is a wrestler who can hold a blocker or two without giving much ground, allowing a backer to make a play for a 1-2 yard gain. Nothing wrong with that, but we can't expect him to be in the QB's face play after play, or being in the backfield to almost take the handoff on running plays. MD Perry slashed the gaps. Bob Golic held his 5 yards of responisibily up the middle. The one he was in, and the two to either side.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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jc
hey guys i wanted to wait to ask this question, i dunno if it's been discussed already.
so we have collins now.
So we have our starting MLB and OLB.
our line as of now if we get Garrett is:
Garrett, Shelton, ?, Ogbah.
are we looking at starting Bryant beside shelton? i know meder is a rotational guy, but maybe he can start? or are you guys thinking we should try and find a DT starter in FA? I want Johnathan Hankins, but in your scenario yes. We'd start Desmond Bryant. would not Meder be better suited to play the other DT position over Dez? Why do you say that? Meder is pretty athletically inept. The John Greco of our defense if you will. Which is great love the guy. But at 3T ideally you have your athletic freak pass rushing DT like Aaron Donald or Gerald mccoy. Meder would fit ideally as first reserve behind Danny at 1 or 0T. was just thinking that Dez might be a little on the light side to play DT in my mind...at 290 lbs I would rather another guy around Sheltons size to play next to him...at least that was my line of thought.
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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Exactly peen. I hope he stays around for a long time. Those kinds of effort brutes are the glue to a team. And I only say he's inept because I played against him. Even in hs he wasnt the most agile of bigs. The guy just does work. If he can't work on his leverage he will be a very valuable player on short down subs for a while.
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jc
hey guys i wanted to wait to ask this question, i dunno if it's been discussed already.
so we have collins now.
So we have our starting MLB and OLB.
our line as of now if we get Garrett is:
Garrett, Shelton, ?, Ogbah.
are we looking at starting Bryant beside shelton? i know meder is a rotational guy, but maybe he can start? or are you guys thinking we should try and find a DT starter in FA? I want Johnathan Hankins, but in your scenario yes. We'd start Desmond Bryant. would not Meder be better suited to play the other DT position over Dez? Why do you say that? Meder is pretty athletically inept. The John Greco of our defense if you will. Which is great love the guy. But at 3T ideally you have your athletic freak pass rushing DT like Aaron Donald or Gerald mccoy. Meder would fit ideally as first reserve behind Danny at 1 or 0T. was just thinking that Dez might be a little on the light side to play DT in my mind...at 290 lbs I would rather another guy around Sheltons size to play next to him...at least that was my line of thought. Dez was 310 on a fasting day last I checked
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No way is Dez too light to play DT. LOL
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No way is Dez too light to play DT. LOL Most people don't realize the best DT in the game is about 6'0 280 Aaron Donald. Personally I like the shorter guys inside. 5T is one thing but I had so much trouble against a 6 footer at 3T in. It just creates piles or its much easier for them to get under and slip through. They get you screamed at in film. I love Danny in a 43. I was very anti Danny coming out as a 34 NT. I have always thought he'd make a much better 0T at about 330#
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Legend
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Wait..............I don't like all of it, but I really liked the first part.
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would not Meder be better suited to play the other DT position over Dez?
I don't think Meder is a great fit for an "aggressive" D which seems to be what Hue and Williams are wanting. He'll probably back up Shelton and see most of his time in Goal line and special teams. Williams had Aaron Donald with the Rams, and I think he will want to go with more of a penetrator/quickness type guy paired with Shelton which would seem to fit Bryant and Cooper better. He could end up changing things up and going with more cloggers/run-stuffing inside. Meder could end up starting, if that's the case, but I don't really see it that way unless Bryant isn't fully recovered or Meder improves a lot.
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/fkjZc8B/Bull-Dawg-Sig-smaller.jpg) You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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I want to add something.
I am not positive, but I think many people get too hung up on who is starting on the DL.
All DL's rotate a ton in the NFL. They are big guys. They chase the QB around. They pound every play. They fight off blocks and have to tackle RBs who might be powerful or elusive.
It's an exhausting job!
Defensive linemen rotate a lot. It is important to have depth across the d-line. Much more important than who is starting.
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No doubt. A thick, low base of gravity is harder to move. It is hard to get leverage on them.
I studied Judo for a number of years. It is easier to move the Bear from below then the Bear above. Take what they give you, flip them and stick a elbow in their teeth.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I want to add something.
I am not positive, but I think many people get too hung up on who is starting on the DL.
All DL's rotate a ton in the NFL. They are big guys. They chase the QB around. They pound every play. They fight off blocks and have to tackle RBs who might be powerful or elusive.
It's an exhausting job!
Defensive linemen rotate a lot. It is important to have depth across the d-line. Much more important than who is starting. Completely agree and for once in my lifetime we have a chance to have serious depth.
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jc
hey guys i wanted to wait to ask this question, i dunno if it's been discussed already.
so we have collins now.
So we have our starting MLB and OLB.
our line as of now if we get Garrett is:
Garrett, Shelton, ?, Ogbah.
are we looking at starting Bryant beside shelton? i know meder is a rotational guy, but maybe he can start? or are you guys thinking we should try and find a DT starter in FA? I want Johnathan Hankins, but in your scenario yes. We'd start Desmond Bryant. would not Meder be better suited to play the other DT position over Dez? Why do you say that? Meder is pretty athletically inept. The John Greco of our defense if you will. Which is great love the guy. But at 3T ideally you have your athletic freak pass rushing DT like Aaron Donald or Gerald mccoy. Meder would fit ideally as first reserve behind Danny at 1 or 0T. was just thinking that Dez might be a little on the light side to play DT in my mind...at 290 lbs I would rather another guy around Sheltons size to play next to him...at least that was my line of thought. Dez was 310 on a fasting day last I checked oh maybe, I just googled him and it came up with 290 lbs lol prolly an old weight then I am assuming
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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No way is Dez too light to play DT. LOL lol oh ok was thinking they were heavier...that is the fan in me coming out. perhaps I need to dive deeper into the other stuff...besides who is playing lol
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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Cooper sucks. Bryant is very good.
This should not be a debate. Bryant is better but Cooper does not outright suck. We went with undrafted FA OLBs and moved backup NTs and OLBs to 5T just so cooper would be on the bench. Dude he sucks. That said he fits 3T much better and I hope the position change and a good off season will allow him to help a roster spot I would like to read more of your thoughts about Cooper in the 4-3. Shortly after the Williams hire, I remember reading a comment that the switch will seriously benefit Cooper as he was miscast in the 3-4. I don't remember what T (3-5-0-1) they attached to his skillset tho.
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I would like to read more of your thoughts about Cooper in the 4-3. Shortly after the Williams hire, I remember reading a comment that the switch will seriously benefit Cooper as he was miscast in the 3-4. I don't remember what T (3-5-0-1) they attached to his skillset tho. This is from his writeup on NFL.com from back when he was drafted: BOTTOM LINE
Cooper must play in a penetrating defensive front in order to minimize his lack of length and maximize his above-average athleticism. He lacks the power to muscle up and hold his ground, but his ability to win with his hands and be a disruptive pass rusher could offer him immediate value as a rotational defensive tackle with a shot to become a starter. The way I see it, reading and reacting (/"holding up") wasn't the best fit for his skill set. I'm under the impression that reading/reacting was primarily what Horton asked him to do. I could be misinformed as far as this past season, but from reading about his defense and reading the opinions of past DL who played for him, DL seem to be asked to keep the LBs clean more than attack.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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Imo Gregg taking over the D makes Paea and Cooper more valuable then they were last year. Paea was a good 3tech prior to being miscast as a 5-tech. Coming from the draft the thought was Cooper's best fit was 3tech.
The same proly applies for D. Bryant?
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Imo Gregg taking over the D makes Paea and Cooper more valuable then they were last year. Paea was a good 3tech prior to being miscast as a 5-tech. Coming from the draft the thought was Cooper's best fit was 3tech. I would agree. I think this is a great example of the defensive scheme last year not conforming to player's fit rather than players trying to fit scheme. Looking back, how many times in post game threads were questions posed wondering why "x" player was playing in "y" spot. Maybe I'm wrong but it felt like a lot.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Irish...not just you but I don't understand the question here. Kirksey proved that he would be an excellent MLB in the 4-3 and actually in any number of schemes (Williams says he has 42 of them  )
To me Will LB is one with Speed and Collins has probably the best speed - and its unusual that he is as big and long that he is. But I got him penciled in at WILL. Also one thing I covet is a simple over load on the edge. I can see Collins and Garrett on the same side and creating havoc!
On the other side traditionally Sam although many teams go without the TE or the TE is a WR more than blocker. I see Orchard over there. But it is in there with a Pencil and an eraser.
I don't see much here for Davis. Unless he can win that SAM LB but I don't see it.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I want to add something.
I am not positive, but I think many people get too hung up on who is starting on the DL.
All DL's rotate a ton in the NFL. They are big guys. They chase the QB around. They pound every play. They fight off blocks and have to tackle RBs who might be powerful or elusive.
It's an exhausting job!
Defensive linemen rotate a lot. It is important to have depth across the d-line. Much more important than who is starting. Completely agree and for once in my lifetime we have a chance to have serious depth. I know you think I'm an idiot Pred, but I understand more than you think I do... In Williams defense, he wants guys that will stay on the field with the ability to move around...that includes his 3 Tech/5 Tech guys, ala Aaron Donald. He will be looking for an athletic guy that can spend 75% of the snaps on the field. I really don't think we have one on the roster right now, unless you want to use an undersized guy like Nassib in that role. He has the motor, but I don't think he has the strength... Guys in the draft I think COULD fill that role are: Jonathan Allen(would have to use #1 overall) Malik McDowell(depends on how he answers questions, possibly between #52 and #65, possibly higher if he interviews well) Davon Godchaux 3rd/4th round Carlos Watkins 3rd Jake Replogle 4th Need that guy that can stay in with the high motor...that can stay in for 75% of the plays though, those guys are rare.
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That's what some of us were saying all season long .. We had the personnel for a 4/3 and were playing a 3/4 .. IE , bye , bye Horton ( although , not all his fault )
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That's what some of us were saying all season long .. We had the personnel for a 4/3 and were playing a 3/4. . . 30% of the time.
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I don't think you are an idiot Irish. I just don't like when people disregard me when they literally ask for my info. My apologies if I was harsh. It's who I am.
Anywho yeah I would love a 3T that we could call our stud like he had with Donald. I just think people highly, not just a little, underrate bryant. He may not be top tier but no team has an all pro DL and if we end up with garrett having Bryant as your weakpoint is something every team dreams of.
Wille: I remember coop coming out. I actually really liked him for a 43 3T. For comparisons sake he was a poor man solomon Thomas in college. Same build and quickness solomon is just naturally strong and plays smart. I hope he can carve out a spot but DT is pretty tight right now. It will be good competition.
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It's interesting to me how many personnel we have whose scouting report would suggest that they are better cast in a 4-3 base.
Do we have any guys who won't be a fit in a 4-3 base?
No wonder Hue moved on from Horton.
Last edited by WSU Willie; 01/26/17 09:37 AM.
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It's interesting to me how many personnel we have whose scouting report would suggest that they are better cast in a 4-3 base.
Do we have any guys who won't be a fit in a 4-3 base?
No wonder Hue moved on from Horton. We ran enough nickel that it isn't really that straightforward, but yeah, I guess running the 3-4 at all can be questioned a little bit.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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cfrs must hate this thread.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Feed me some Berry, Eric Berry!!!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Last year I wanted us to throw the kitchen sink at Damon Harrison. https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.ph...ued#Post1087909This year, for the second consecutive year, Pro Football Focus rated him as the best run defender in the NFL. https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-what-makes-damon-harrison-the-leagues-best-run-stuffer/The dominance he has in this aspect of the game is remarkable and can be summed up in one key statistic: run-stop percentage. Harrison has led the league in run-stop percentage for the past four seasons. He played just 11 snaps against the run as an undrafted rookie back in 2012, and notched one tackle—it was a defensive stop.
Much of the time, we think about the role of run-stuffing defensive tackle as one that doesn’t often come hand in hand with statistics. These players tend to be more space-eaters than playmakers. They block the point of attack, squeeze holes and generally disrupt running lanes for other players to clean up and make the tackles. Harrison, though, actively finishes the play better than any other defensive tackle PFF has graded in the past decade.
His last two seasons have provided the highest run-stop percentage figures we have ever recorded for a defensive tackle over the past decade of grading. In 2015, Harrison notched a defensive stop on 18.1 percent of his snaps against the run; this past season, he did it on 15.8 percent.
He racked up 49 defensive stops in the run game this season, 10 more than any other defensive tackle. That mark tied the record for the most PFF has ever recorded for a defensive tackle, breaking a record he set himself a year ago. Only eight other defensive tackles could even get within half of Harrison’s tally over the season, and he played fewer snaps against the run than many of them.
In the past 10 years, the number of times a defensive tackle has posted more than 40 run stops in a season reads: rest of the NFL, one; Damon Harrison, two. Despite having basically nobody at linebacker yet again last year, the Giants went from 24th in run defense to 3rd in total rush yards surrendered, 2nd in rush yards against average at 3.6. Meanwhile, the Browns gave up the second most yards on the ground in the league and a full ypc more (4.6) than the Giants.
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Yeah, he is a dominant player. Well, at least in the handful of games that I watched this year.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,217
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,217 |
j/c
I find the entire thread funny. A lot of the guys you are talking about so much will be signed by their teams before the FA period ever begins. It's all moot at this juncture.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
It's always nice to dream.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 5,386
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 5,386 |
j/c
I find the entire thread funny. A lot of the guys you are talking about so much will be signed by their teams before the FA period ever begins. It's all moot at this juncture. The offseason is a Browns Fan's Superbowl.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
My plan:
Bump up the Defense and Oline via FA.
There are a lot of solid to above average starters in FA. We will have to slightly overpay for them. But if we front load most of the garenteed money this year, when we have way too much, it makes it more manageable in the future.
Targets: Starting CB, DL, G/RT
Add a solid WR in FA. Resign/Tag Pryor.
Firstly, we have to bring back Pryor. Don't care if we tag him or sign him. I would also then go after a solid #2 WR. Think Atl bringing in Sanu. This would also take a lot of pressure off all the second year WRs.
Draft Garrett at #1
Without a doubt. Slam dunk choice. Don't care what anyone's offering.
Draft BPA/Trade down #12
I'm totally fine sitting put. Especially if 2-3 QBs go way too high and someone drops to us. If not. I wouldn't mind moving back a bit and picking up more picks for next year. Hell I might even consider moving up a few spots if Hooker starts to fall. That would be 2 defensive cornerstones in one draft...
Trade #33 (plus a bit more) for Jimmy Garrapolo
This is the key to my off-season plan. This is the first thing I do. And then everything else falls after that. As soon as the new league year starts and trades are eligible, I am on the phone with NE, #33 in hand, plus maybe a 2018 conditional 4th that can move up however high..
Because we have the cap space, and the draft ammunition to not nessarily kill the "build through the draft" plan, but to speed it up.
QB (Jimmy G)
WR (FA)
OL (FA/Draft)
DL (FA)
CB (FA)
Garrett @ #1
BPA @ #12
I think if you do that, and that's not even counting all the other picks we have, you could see a considerable jump this coming season. And the future.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,678
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,678 |
It will be a lot easier to discuss free agents once we know who is actually free.
That said, I am on board with filling some holes. If the draft is mostly BPA, free agency is where you target needs.
Reducing your needs makes it a whole lot easier to draft BPA.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,805
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,805 |
Thankfully it's coming soon.
2/15 to 3/1
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Free Agency Discussion
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